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A very obvious impedance/output question


Marky L

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Can I confirm that if -

 

I have two 4x10 cabs, both rated at 500w but one is 8ohm and the other 4ohm. If I A/B these cabs from my 500W amp running exactly the same settings, the 4ohm would sound louder and if I want the 8ohm to match the perceived output volume, I would need to turn the amp output up? (Cabs being trialled individually). 

 

I'm sure there will be lots of variables that could be taken into account, but this is on a verrrrry basic level.

Edited by Marky L
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8 minutes ago, Marky L said:

Can I confirm that if -

 

I have two 4x10 cabs, both rated at 500w but one is 8ohm and the other 4ohm. If A/B these cabs from my 500W amp running exactly the same settings, the 4ohm would sound louder and if I want the 8ohm to match the perceived output volume, I would need to turn the amp output up? (Cabs being trailed individually). 

 

I'm sure there will be lots of variables that could be taken into account, but this is on a verrrrry basic level.

If you turn the volume up both cabs will get louder though.

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9 minutes ago, asingardenof said:

If you turn the volume up both cabs will get louder though.

 

Absolutely I get that, but at the same output volume level, would the 4ohm be noticeably louder?

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I found when I tried this that the 4ohm didn’t sound noticeably louder but it did sound more “alive”. It was ages ago when I did it so can’t remember which amps/cabs tho.

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P = IV

 

Double the current will go to the 4 ohm cab, or 2/3 of your power.

(Assuming they're connected in parallel.)

As far as Watts to volume goes, the general rule is 10x the power = 2x the volume.

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5 hours ago, Marky L said:

Can I confirm that if -

 

I have two 4x10 cabs, both rated at 500w but one is 8ohm and the other 4ohm. If I A/B these cabs from my 500W amp running exactly the same settings, the 4ohm would sound louder and if I want the 8ohm to match the perceived output volume, I would need to turn the amp output up? (Cabs being trialled individually). 

 

I'm sure there will be lots of variables that could be taken into account, but this is on a verrrrry basic level.

If the cabs are identical, design, speakers, sensitivity etc, except for the impedance, then the 4 ohm cab may sound louder to you. If you’re talking about wholly different cabs, make, manufacturer, speakers etc, then all bets are off. 
 

Rob

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11 hours ago, Lfalex v1.1 said:

If you're stacking them, maybe put the 8 Ohm on the top? It'll be closer to ear level and that might help compensate for any perceived difference in SPL.

 

No, it's one or the other.

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As others have noted, the relative sensitivity of the speakers is probably more a factor than the impedance.

 

Although an ideal amplifier will deliver twice the power into 4 ohms compared to 8, a 3dB increase, real world amplifiers don't behave that well and will start to current limit into a 4 ohm load at a lower output voltage compared to 8.

 

Swapping an otherwise identical 4 for an 8 might just be audible but new strings or a drunk guitarist far more a factor.

 

Wait - we are talking about a solid state amp? If it's valves, I'll get my coat...

 

Edit: sorry, Ossyrocks was more concise.

Edited by bremen
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20 minutes ago, bremen said:

As others have noted, the relative sensitivity of the speakers is probably more a factor than the impedance.

 

Although an ideal amplifier will deliver twice the power into 4 ohms compared to 8, a 3dB increase, real world amplifiers don't behave that well and will start to current limit into a 4 ohm load at a lower output voltage compared to 8.

 

Swapping an otherwise identical 4 for an 8 might just be audible but new strings or a drunk guitarist far more a factor.

 

Wait - we are talking about a solid state amp? If it's valves, I'll get my coat...

 

Edit: sorry, Ossyrocks was more concise.


I had the valves/impedance conversation recently with Martin Garton (Gartone Amps). I have a valve head which ideally requires an 8 ohm load, but I want to run it into a 4 ohm cab. I haven’t tried it yet, as the cab isn’t here yet, but he said I probably wouldn’t notice any difference in volume, but the power valves would run a little hotter. He biased the amp on the cool side when it was with him last, so he said it would be fine. 
Rob

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1 hour ago, ossyrocks said:


I had the valves/impedance conversation recently with Martin Garton (Gartone Amps). I have a valve head which ideally requires an 8 ohm load, but I want to run it into a 4 ohm cab. I haven’t tried it yet, as the cab isn’t here yet, but he said I probably wouldn’t notice any difference in volume, but the power valves would run a little hotter. He biased the amp on the cool side when it was with him last, so he said it would be fine. 
Rob

Well also valve amps tend to run the same power into any load. They don't change with the load like solid state amps. 

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An interesting point was mentioned in another thread here, that if there are two speakers from the same manufacturer, but the impedances are different, the speakers will not be similar. If the Z is different, there are several other parametres that will be different, too. Therefore 4 and 8 ohm cabs will sound and behave in a different way.

 

@bremen's comment about amp's ability to push voltage and current are of great interest. When Z gets lower, current rises, and everything will get hotter from amp's components to speaker's coil.

 

Think Z this way:

You have a rod that you push with your thumb. Bigger Z means thicker rod, and is easier to your thumb. Lower the Z and rod gets much thinner. Pushing the spikey rod will hurt your thumb.

 

Power is connected to loudness, but watts do not represent sound level. And because ear is not linear, like watts are, comparing watts is pretty fruitless. From 50 W to 500 W you can hear a difference, but 500 W to 1000 W the difference is close to nothing. dB seems to be too complicated a unit to most of us musicians.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, bremen said:

As others have noted, the relative sensitivity of the speakers is probably more a factor than the impedance.

 

Although an ideal amplifier will deliver twice the power into 4 ohms compared to 8, a 3dB increase, real world amplifiers don't behave that well and will start to current limit into a 4 ohm load at a lower output voltage compared to 8.

 

Swapping an otherwise identical 4 for an 8 might just be audible but new strings or a drunk guitarist far more a factor.

 

Wait - we are talking about a solid state amp? If it's valves, I'll get my coat...

 

Edit: sorry, Ossyrocks was more concise.

 

Sorry, yes solid state.

 

Should I have included "heft" into all this? 😁

Edited by Marky L
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3 hours ago, bremen said:

If it's valves, I'll get my coat...

It won't be any louder if they are measured  the same except the valve amp will give the same power into 4 or 8 ohms as long as you select the correct impedance.

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48 minutes ago, BassmanPaul said:

You also have to consider the total load presented to the amplifier. Four and eight ohms in parallel. equates to 2..67 ohms . If the SS amp can't drive that impedance the amp dies..

 

However the OP said he would only be using one or the other. In addition many Solid State amps are 2.67 ohm stable with some stable down to 2 ohms.

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Assuming you are comparing one to the other and they are identical other than nominal impedance...

 

The 4 ohm cabinet will be approx. 3dB louder for the same volume setting on the solid state amp, because solid state amps are essentially ideal voltage sources. If you turn the 8 ohm cabinet up 3dB, it will be the same volume as the 4 ohm cabinet.

 

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15 hours ago, agedhorse said:

Assuming you are comparing one to the other and they are identical other than nominal impedance...

 

The 4 ohm cabinet will be approx. 3dB louder for the same volume setting on the solid state amp, because solid state amps are essentially ideal voltage sources. If you turn the 8 ohm cabinet up 3dB, it will be the same volume as the 4 ohm cabinet.

 

 

Perfect.

Thank you.

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16 hours ago, agedhorse said:

Assuming you are comparing one to the other and they are identical other than nominal impedance...

 

The 4 ohm cabinet will be approx. 3dB louder for the same volume setting on the solid state amp, because solid state amps are essentially ideal voltage sources. If you turn the 8 ohm cabinet up 3dB, it will be the same volume as the 4 ohm cabinet.

 

Not quite. Few amps are ideal voltage sources, there's generally a bit of sag.

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