Could be my ears ........ but ..... "BRIGHT" PA

[Dan Dare]

4 hours ago, Chienmortbb said:

I will watch that video with interest later but I wonder if the need for a physical control layer is as much a "tablet phobia"? I have the CQ20 and after struggling initially with some of the finer points, I find the level of control I can get on an iPad is superb once you learn all the fine adjustment tricks. Te same was true of the Soundcraft UI16.

 

Dave N explains that his motivation is primarily pragmatic. If a channel on an analogue console goes down, you can pull it and slot in a fresh one. You can't do that with digital.  I agree that those of a certain age - me included - tend to prefer a physical control layer or device. It isn't "phobia". It's just that we are comfortable with the familiar. Although I could spend time learning to use a digital desk (as I have with my simple laptop-based home recording set-up), I don't see the point when I already have something that works well for me.

[tauzero]

14 hours ago, Chienmortbb said:

I will watch that video with interest later but I wonder if the need for a physical control layer is as much a "tablet phobia"? I have the CQ20 and after struggling initially with some of the finer points, I find the level of control I can get on an iPad is superb once you learn all the fine adjustment tricks. Te same was true of the Soundcraft UI16.

 

With the XR18 and a 10" Android tablet, even in fine adjustment mode I'm much better off using the BCF2000 for volume sliders. It's very handy having the mutes on the tablet in front of me though.

[Chienmortbb]

6 hours ago, tauzero said:

With the XR18 and a 10" Android tablet,

I found that my Lenovo Android Tab has a lot of lag compared to my iPad so I can appreciate that. They are the same vintage but clearly the iPad is more responsive.

 

Don't get me wrong, I grew up using analogue consoles and loved using them. My first Digital mixer was a 32 channel Panasonic DA7 and it was clear even way back that the physical controls were on the wane.

[tauzero]

5 hours ago, Chienmortbb said:

I found that my Lenovo Android Tab has a lot of lag compared to my iPad so I can appreciate that. They are the same vintage but clearly the iPad is more responsive.

 

Don't get me wrong, I grew up using analogue consoles and loved using them. My first Digital mixer was a 32 channel Panasonic DA7 and it was clear even way back that the physical controls were on the wane.

 

It's not lag, it's me. I'm probably mildly dyspraxic, I have dodgy fine motor skills.

[Pirellithecat]

Update.
Been playing with a Yamaha DM3 mixer this week - all set up with full PA. 
Steep Learning curve!   
Compared the in "house" FOH speakers (Mackie SM450 mk3) with my RCF 932's
RCF's more detailed and less congested - The Mackies have a fairly "middy" presentation which is "mellifluous" at first hearing, but they are nowhere near as accurate as the RCF's - so I guess any input/mixer "peaks" at the 2-4k region will be presented in all their glory!! (Ouch!) 
Can tame the offending frequencies with the Digital EQ and would even attempt a bit of Dynamic Compression if I could work that out! 
Using the Mackie Mixer, I can't really address the problem area due to limited mid range EQ - I can get it better but this affects other areas of the mix.

So, been playing with a 31 Channel GEQ unit too and I'm optimistic that the Mackie plus the GEQ can ameliorate the issues I perceive.   
Where the GEQ really pays dividends is on the Foldback EQ to manage any feedback.
So I'd need a pair (and a rack and and .......).
Going to try out at least one in a high pressure gig on Saturday to see how it goes.

However, buying a pair of stereo GEQ units (plus Rack) is going to be around £250 all in, and then I have to transport and set them up at every gig - which is probably going to be a hassle.
In the world of digital they are probably obsolete tech too so I'll end up with even more gear with collapsing value. 

Which leads me to think that I might be better selling my Mackie/Case/etc. and investing in a digital mixer.
The DM3 is a great compromise as it has physical faders, is relatively "familiar" and isn't too big - but it is VERY expensive. 

So, if not this, then am I bold enough to try an A&H CQ 18T ????? 

Let's see what the weekend brings ..........   
 

 

 

[Chienmortbb]

Just a heads up on the CQ series. The CQ18 has the screen which is great but the downside is that many of the connections are TRS rather than XLR. 
 

Having built in display and some assignable rotary controls is nice when migrating from an analogue console. It also means you are not tied to the vagaries of WiFi, although my CQ20 has been rock solid in that respect. It is miles better than  the Soundcraft and Behringer small format digital mixers. 

[Phil Starr]

You might find your solution with Mackie.

 

I've been wondering what I would do if my RCF mixer ever went down. It's not made any more. I've been looking at the Mackie DL16S as an alternative to the CQ20, my other favourite amongst the 'just about affordable' mixers. I'm mixing on stage and playing bass at the same time so in a way software is so much more important to me than extra bells and whistles and flexibility I won't use and both these mixers have all the eq and processing options I'll ever use anyway. I've two priorities, a single box solution with a decent router and an intuitive workflow so I can just reach out and tame a problem in seconds. I don't want to think about anything other than music at a live gig so the screen I want needs to be just a touch or two away with a big well labelled button I can't miss on the screen. The DL16S seems to have adressed the router issue and Mackie's Master Fader 5 software looks promising and does Allen and Heath's.

 

This is only a recommendation of what might be worth looking at, I haven't tried either yet but the Mackie DL16 is £629 v's £759 for the CQ20 so in a similar price bracket to Behringer if you price in an external router and so much simpler to operate if you don't have a sound tech.

[Woodinblack]

For me it isn't tablet that is an issue - I use the tablet most of the time and for most adjustments, but I use the X touch control surface in the gig while playing. As I am singing, playing bass and mixing, a physical control is just easier to hit than a point on the screen when you have a fraction of a second to do it, it just makes it eaiser with not much time to change some levels, which is the 99% job.

And it is wired, so worse comes to the worse, if there is a problem with wireless, it is always there.

[Pirellithecat]

The Mackie control app does look good!
I've downloaded the CQ18T Control app (CQ MixPad) and that seems pretty straightforward and clear too for "on the fly" use.
I'm probably more likely to feel comfortable with the A&H CQ 18t mixer as it has a built in screen and some rotary controls etc.   This means that I'm not dependent on any Network connectivity when playing live, i.e. if the wireless didn't work I have a base unit which (I guess?) will be fine.  
Last thing I need is a glitchy connection whilst trying to play bass, sort our stage sound , sort out FOH sound and stand up whilst still breathing!! 
This is why Yamaha DM3 and A&H CQ 18T are more "attractive" too me.   Does rely on Magic, but looks as though it doesn't!
 

[Chienmortbb]

The CQ mixers added Midi control in the last firmware update so some physical controls would be possible. 

[Phil Starr]

I must admit i did look at using the X touch before I went digital for the same worries we all share. The RCF has a feature that the volume controls all have a tap feature which turns them up or down 1db at a time which means hittint the wrong spot wouldn't be a disaster, The 'sliders' on screen are so big that I've never hit the wrong one. It's a neat feature others should copy.

 

I've had one drop out of the wi fi connection in over two years and that was the iPad's fault not the mixer, Apple decided it needed the intrernet and tried to tether to my phone. It's never a disaster though as all the settings remain as they were so you lose the ability to adjust not the sound. Turning off the tethering fixed the problem.

 

It's been so reliable that I've ceased to worry. You are far more likely to suffer from a noisy pot or some other physical failure.

Edited August 2 by Phil Starr

[Woodinblack]

Oh conceptally not a problem, or even accuracy, its just manipulating a screen with a finger is always going to be worse than a moving thing, I have the same problems with touch screen on cars, especially when that iPad also has lyrics on it, so you might have to switch to it first.

But I did several hundred gigs  before getting the X-Touch, so certainly not a huge stress, just quite a bit nicer with it!

[Phil Starr]

Just looking at one of the tutorials on the Master Fader/Mackie app and came across this on taming some harshness in a female vocal https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtrNYh36FHQ the relevant bit is one minute in.

Edited August 3 by Phil Starr

[Pirellithecat]

14 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

Just looking at one of the tutorials on the Master Fader/Mackie app and came across this on taming some harshness in a female vocal https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtrNYh36FHQ the relevant bit is one minute in.

Great vid!  

[JPJ]

23 minutes ago, Pirellithecat said:

Great vid!  

Yep, one of the best explanations of compression I’ve seen (and I’ve seen a few)

[Pirellithecat]

Thanks everyone for all the practical and informative help on this thread - really helpful.

Took 2x2channel Graphic Equalisers to my Gig Last night along with A Sontronics Solo Mic, which Chienmortbb kindly supplied.
Set up and did sound for our band and our support band.
They used all our gear.
Both bands Guitar/Bass/Drums/Female Vocals.

Key findings.   
Got the Support sounding great - including female vocals, 
Drums (Triggers on Kick/Snare/FloorTom/Rack Tom), 3 Vocals, Guitar and Bass ALL included in PA mix.
Spoke to someone who saw them last week who said their sound was transformed ..... in a good way. 
No issues with female vocal. 

My band .......... pretty good, but female vocal still on the "bright side".
Phil's vid demonstrates the issue exactly.

So, take away is ..... 
The Mic helped - I think it's noticeably "smoother" than the Shure SM58 and our vocalist likes it!! 
At live gigs, a rack of GEQ's just isn't an option due to space, time to set up, and ability to tweak 124 faders during a live performance whilst playing bass! 
I can get some (benign) female vocals to sound good, but with challenging, full on, vocals I struggle with our current gear/time available mid gig.
So, the inescapable conclusion is that I just put up with life as it is, or get a mixer with more functionality so that I can build a basic profile for our vocalist which can be "tweaked" if needed at gigs! 

I'll continue on the How Did Last Night's Gig Go thread, and the Digital Mixer Thread.  
   

[Pirellithecat]

PS. 
First time I've actually put the Bass through the PA in any meaningful way (usually just into monitor mix). 
Revelation!

[Phil Starr]

Mixing for another band is a great thing to do, quite apart from giving them some help too of course

 

More or less the first thing I did when I got my digital mixer was to run a gig for a friends band, it gave me a chance to get used to running it without the distraction of playing. I could learn to drive the thing without distractions just concentrating on the sound. I'd forgotten how much fun it is running sound and also discovered how shot my hearing is from all those years of not wearing in-ears.

 

Your drummer's monitoring issues (mentioned in your other post) would be solved by him wearing in-ears. It's almost obstinate not to do the complete fix when it is so obvious. Can't you try to get him to use 'cans' at a rehearsal? I gave my drummer my in-ears at a rehearsal just once and he wouldn't give them back! They were only a cheap pair of ZSN's so I donated them in exchange for a pint If he insists on an incomplete fix then there are a couple of things to try.

 

• Swap out his mic too. A more directional mic, carefully positioned could give you a little more gain before feedback and a smoother response might remove a critical frequency.
• Look at moving his monitor around, if his mic is cardioid then the monitor needs to be pointing along the mic sitting in it's dead spot, if it is super or hyper-cardioid it needs to be at roughly 135deg but that varies a little from mic to mic and with room acoustics
• Digital mixer again. You can ust the same technique as in the video to identify the problem frequency and notch it out.
• The horrible bodge! get him to have one in-ear or badly fitted ones. Split his mic signal with something like a Micromon so he gets plenty of vocal and can turn down the gain on the rest of his montoring.

The best I could do without in-ears was using a B205D for monitoring. You can stand mount them and are tiny so keep the clutter round the drums down. Again he can adjust his own vocals in the mix. That pushes the responsibility back to him as well.

 

A rack of graphics was never really a runner, good for FOH and Monitors but a parametric eq is what you need on the channels for pulling out those problem frequencies.