Could be my ears ........ but ..... "BRIGHT" PA

[Owen]

I am in no way qualified to comment in the way others on this thread are, but I am thinking mic technique here. The problem is that anyone who is told to do something differently will take it as "you are not good enough" when that is not the case. 

 

Perhaps a recording of the set to everyone and sit back and wait for comments? If all else fails a compressor to catch the "special" moments so at least they are less SHOUTY! 

[Pirellithecat]

Thanks all,
So, some quick Vox Pop questions.....

1) Might an alternative MIC help with harsh treble, (whilst being relatively immune from Feedback from the Monitor(s) which sit directly in front of it on stage)?   Thinking
Sennheiser e935 or Sontronics Solo - others??
2) Is there an additional EQ Strip that can be used on the Mic channel which gives access to more tonal options particularly in the Mid Range?  If there was something I could add to the Mixer Case (there's space but depth is the issue) that would be ideal.   I need to control the frequencies involved in Monitor Feedback, AND the vocal harshness, and this is not possible (for me at least) with a single Semi Parametric mid control. 
3) Of the vocal "pedals" is there one which allows EQ adjustment plus a few obvious FX's (The Reverb/Delay options are combined on the Mackie, which isn't ideal as the delay element isn't independently adjustable 
4) Is Dynamic Compression another Rabbit Hole or worth exploring?    
And then I think I've probably bored you all to death so I'll stop being a nuisance!!
 

[JPJ]

Sounds to me like you are hitting the limits of your desk. Ignore me, but since going digital ten years or more ago, all these problems have stopped for me. Need to eq the mic channel - no problem I have a choice of parametric or graphic eq. Need to eq front of house - no problem I have the choice of parametric or graphic eq. Need to eq a monitor bus - no problem I have a choice of ………. Effects-wise I have four busses with a pretty unlimited selection of delays, reverbs, etc. Monitors-wise I have six individual mono busses or three stereo busses. Need to adjust eq whilst sound checking - I just take my tablet out front with me. All this in a three rack space box that doubles as your stage box. Oh and I can save any number of scenes so that once I’ve played a venue with a band, I have a baseline setup for the next visit. 

 

On your last point, and as I am sure more knowledgeable folk than me will say, compression is no substitute for good mic technique and can actually be the source of feedback in certain situations. 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Compression is good if you don't overdo it. The idea is to reduce high level peaks. Gating is just as useful, to reduce the level of mics not in use, but again you don't want to overdo it.

[Jack]

6 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Compression is good if you don't overdo it. The idea is to reduce high level peaks. Gating is just as useful, to reduce the level of mics not in use, but again you don't want to overdo it.

After years of combat gating whilst trying to play bass at the same time, pretty much the second best thing I did for foh sound (after buying a digital desk) was put all the backing vocal mics on optogates. Not so important on a silent stage granted, but ours is ampless, not silent. And every mic is a drum mic. 

[mrtcat]

Just read through this topic and feel like I'm the only one thinking that the room was the issue not the speakers / mics. I've just done my 600th gig with my wedding band (yes I'm that old) and by far the biggest issue we come across sound wise is a bright or "lively" room. The only real solution is, as @Bill Fitzmaurice has said, some form of rta and eq. The simple pink noise generator and rta app coupled with an outboard eq would surely solve this issue on a very small budget. You can do the eq adjustments before your bandmates have even taken their instruments out of their cases and take your time. 

Your rcf speakers are excellent and the issue doesn't lie there. Rooms that aren't acoustically treated can have a range of issues but harsh sounding is the joint most noticeable along with boomy. Correctly applied eq can really help to reduce both of these.

[Pirellithecat]

8 hours ago, mrtcat said:

Just read through this topic and feel like I'm the only one thinking that the room was the issue not the speakers / mics. I've just done my 600th gig with my wedding band (yes I'm that old) and by far the biggest issue we come across sound wise is a bright or "lively" room. The only real solution is, as @Bill Fitzmaurice has said, some form of rta and eq. The simple pink noise generator and rta app coupled with an outboard eq would surely solve this issue on a very small budget. You can do the eq adjustments before your bandmates have even taken their instruments out of their cases and take your time. 

Your rcf speakers are excellent and the issue doesn't lie there. Rooms that aren't acoustically treated can have a range of issues but harsh sounding is the joint most noticeable along with boomy. Correctly applied eq can really help to reduce both of these.

Thanks for that - Any ideas on an affordable "outboard" EQ option?   I can't seem to find anything which separates Low and Upper Mids that doesn't cost a huge amount.  Other than that I guess it's down to a Graphic Equaliser? (or 2).   
The other option, clearly, is to use a Digital Mixer which has that function (RTA/Pink noise built in).  But I have to weigh up cost and complexity of yet more bits of gear to carry/setup/worry-about vs a decent Digital Mixer and the learning curve associated with that.
I'll await thoughts on Mics etc. and then get on with sorting it.  

[jimmyb625]

In our theatre, we use this: https://www.roomeqwizard.com/ together with one of the suggested microphones: miniDSP USB microphone

 

It's really useful for analysing "the room" which means we can set our master eq's for the house system to be fairly flat, or at least control some of our more problematic frequencies. It will give you suggested settings for parametric eq's (I think it does GEQ as well, but I've not used it for a while). It will also allow you to do RTA which we do on occassion. The best thing about the room sweep though, is that it takes about 2 seconds to run it, so we have done it right before the start of the show, to analyse the difference that the audience make to the room response. Obviously, in your situation, you'd be better off doing it during soundcheck (unless you have someone out front who can monitor it).

 

Outboard graphic eq's are pretty affordable on the second hand market, as many people are off-loading them now and moving to digital, but it's one more thing to setup, so only you can decide whether or not it's worth it.

[Phil Starr]

It's hard to recommend a vocal processor until you know exactly what you are trying to achieve, most of them don't really offer eq as such but just like guitar and bass there are individual pedals that will do just about anything. Just like guitar pedals there are as many opinions as there are pedals There are also multi fx pedals  the Boss VE 20 and TC-Helicon Voicelive Play look interesting and the TC cliips onto a mic stand so the singer can operate it with a finger. I've not used one but I did use a VoiceSolo for a while. I found compression problemmatic for a set and forget live set up. It needs to be used really judiciously just as a limiter, if you squash the sound too much and turn up as a result you hit real feedback issues very quickly.

 

As to mics feedback rejection is down to mainly two things pickup pattern and frequency response. All mics have peaks in response and many use that to enhance vocals but any peak is where the feedback will start. Pattern is probably all important. Cardioid is least directional with a heart shaped pickup pattern, then you move to super and hyper-cardioid with increasing directionality. The tighter the patten the better the feedback rejection and the better your mic technique has to be. Something like the Audix OM7 is fabulous at feedback rejection but you can't move left or right without losing the vocals and you pretty much have to eat the mic all night. Rmember that the dead spot for a cardioid is straight down the barrel and the dead spot for a super cardioid is to one side at roughly 135deg. Shure give diagrams for the best place to position your monitors with their mics . The Senny E935 is a cardioid (they do a super cardioid with the same capsule the E945) I've never had problems with feedback from them but I've a reasonably loud singing voice so gain isn't too high.

 

As to the room v's vocals issue there is no reason it couldn't be a little of both but as you've now experienced it in different venues and your sound engineer has identified vocals as an issue I'd be looking at that first. Don't rush into buying a mic though, the choice of mic is very individual with different mics suiting different people. @VTypeV4 might be a good person to ask and he was really helpful in sorting out issues I was having with reverb and delay.

[VTypeV4]

Hey Phil.. 😃

 

With regards to the 'bright' thing, as echoed many times in this thread, EQ (parametric or graphic) inserted on the main L/R output will be your friend. People will often talk about something being a bit 'toppy' or 'tinny' (I really hate that term) but the offensive frequencies nearly always reside in the upper mids somewhere between 1.6 and 4kHz. Certain singers and mic combinations may also accentuate this frequency range so again, corrective use of channel EQ can help smooth things out. If your mixer is really clever, it may have dynamic EQ or more likely a multi-band compressor which could also help although I'd suggest you start gently with those as they can cause as many problems as they solve. 

 

As for mics themselves, first of all make sure singers are singing 'into' them rather than at them as proximity effect may also expose this upper mid problem. A lovely Shure Beta 57A may work better than a standard 58 or a £20 Behringer XM1800 may out perform both of them - it's a combination / application thing and one size generally doesn't fit all. I did find the sE V7 mic works very well in lots of situations but I rather think your problems aren't really to do with the actual gear but with the setup of it.

 

There's plenty of good advice and plenty of options to try here but if I were to offer my own a words of wisdom.. Only change ONE thing at a time and return it to it's original position before trying the next thing. Take as long as you need doing this and only then can you decide which are making the most useful changes and  which combinations are going to work best.

 

Good luck. 👍  

[Phil Starr]

Ha ha that's what I've been trying and failing to say in thousands of words, summarised in a couple of hundred Sometimes calling in a pro is what you need to do. Funnily enough I even looked at the Beta 57 before I posted yesterday but I haven't actually used it so was reluctant to recommend it. Thanks @VTypeV4

[VTypeV4]

47 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

Ha ha that's what I've been trying and failing to say in thousands of words, summarised in a couple of hundred Sometimes calling in a pro is what you need to do. Funnily enough I even looked at the Beta 57 before I posted yesterday but I haven't actually used it so was reluctant to recommend it. Thanks @VTypeV4

 

Ha, all good Phil - hoping it helps those in a similar situation. 😀

 

As for the 57A, I find they work well in most situations. They offer a generous pickup pattern, a healthy output level and great feedback rejection but are aften overlooked and overshadowed by their siblings, the 58 and Beta 58A. I've found the 57A superior in nearly all applications, not just vocals. 🥰 

[Chienmortbb]

9 hours ago, VTypeV4 said:

Only change ONE thing at a time and return it to it's original position before trying the next thing.

Oh yes. When I started out as an electronic test engineer/technician, that is a strategy you learn very quickly. One other point, if your speakers are active and include DSP, try to set them as flat as possible. There is no point trying to EQ out a peak or trough that is dialled into the FoH speakers.

 

Mic technique. Our lead guitarist can really sing but its like he has had a row with his mic. Never closer than 15cm/6in, we often have feedback issues with his mic (Behringer XM8500).

[Phil Starr]

1 hour ago, VTypeV4 said:

 

Ha, all good Phil - hoping it helps those in a similar situation. 😀

 

As for the 57A, I find they work well in most situations. They offer a generous pickup pattern, a healthy output level and great feedback rejection but are aften overlooked and overshadowed by their siblings, the 58 and Beta 58A. I've found the 57A superior in nearly all applications, not just vocals. 🥰 

The reason I looked the Beta 57 was that back in the day I would use the SM57 rather than the SM58 for similar reasons. It was on my shortlist before I plumped for the Sennheiser E935. The sE V7 also gets a lot of love but again not something I've tried. I was worried that @Pirellithecat was going to buy an expensive mic before addessing the eq issues. An hour or two just with the singer should help him do the best he can with the gear at his disposal and probably do more than spending £00's on a mic.

[VTypeV4]

32 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

The reason I looked the Beta 57 was that back in the day I would use the SM57 rather than the SM58 for similar reasons. It was on my shortlist before I plumped for the Sennheiser E935. The sE V7 also gets a lot of love but again not something I've tried. I was worried that @Pirellithecat was going to buy an expensive mic before addessing the eq issues. An hour or two just with the singer should help him do the best he can with the gear at his disposal and probably do more than spending £00's on a mic.

 

I don't think I've ever used a Sennheiser that I didn't like - the 935 / 945 is generally well liked and again, in most situations, just a bit 'nicer' (for want of a far more descriptive term! 🤣) than a stock Shure 58.

 

Hoping the O/P gets it all together and sorted. ❤️

[mrtcat]

On 09/07/2024 at 21:39, Pirellithecat said:

Thanks for that - Any ideas on an affordable "outboard" EQ option?

Second hand Behringer DEQ2496. It also has the rta function built in. Just need to add the behringer reference mic.

[Phil Starr]

On 11/07/2024 at 20:59, mrtcat said:

Second hand Behringer DEQ2496. It also has the rta function built in. Just need to add the behringer reference mic.

+1 and definitely used. My feeling is that pretty quickly you'll want to move to a digital mixer and it will become redundant, buy used and you can get all/most of your money back out. You'll also need a parametric equaliser for your vocal problems, something like this https://www.thomann.de/gb/midas_parametric_equaliser_512_v2.htm which might be more difficult to find used. I'd also in your position have a quick calculation about what a digital mixer would cost versus the used value of your mixer +graphic+channel strip.

 

I know that you are concerned about the complexity and learning curve of a new mixer but you don't have to use all the bells and whistles, you can keep it simple. Most of them present a really simple on-screen mixer that will be simpler than a physical mixer with most of the complexity accessible with two taps of clearly labelled buttons and with logical layouts. For me the exception is the Behringer/Midas that looks more like a DAW but even that won't be beyond you. Honestly the questions you ask and your methodical nature show you are way beyond most of the people in charge of a PA.

 

You can try the control software of most digital mixers before buying too. Have a look at teh A&H CQ ramge and I quite like the Mackie DL16 in  terms of ease of use.

 

There's an RCF M18 used for £400 om FB Marketplace too, they are discontinued but that's what I use   https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1009372180703532/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3Aa5ccd843-10af-482d-b114-5e29b98cd676

Edited July 12 by Phil Starr

[VTypeV4]

8 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

My feeling is that pretty quickly you'll want to move to a digital mixer and it will become redundant,

 

You can try the control software of most digital mixers before buying too. Have a look at teh A&H CQ ramge and I quite like the Mackie DL16 in  terms of ease of use.

 

 

+2 on the DEQ2496 - they're pretty comprehensive and sound pretty good too. ❤️

 

As for a digital mixer, I'm 100% with @Phil Starr here. it feels like a big step and it is to be fair but, if you take the time to learn the basics and get comfortable with it's operating platform, you'll never look back. I first used a digital console in around 2010 and bought my own just a few years later.

 

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of tablet based mixers but it's not that there's anything wrong with them, I just really prefer some physical / tactile control and actual faders. The Soundcraft UI24 was the last one I used and it had all the usual suspects with dynamics and EQ on all the I/O plus the 4 FX units were pretty serviceable too..

[Phil Starr]

16 minutes ago, VTypeV4 said:

 

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of tablet based mixers but it's not that there's anything wrong with them, I just really prefer some physical / tactile control and actual faders

I feel that too and if I was mixing for someone else then I'd go straight for a 'proper' desk but when you have a 30min set up in a busy pub and no sound engineer a tablet out in front for your 3 min soundcheck and then mounted on your mic stand is a godsend.

 

I love having a sound engineer. Covid was such anawful time for any independant but as we came out of it we knew a couple who just needed any work and for a few gigs had one who was happy to work for a share of the band's fees. He sorted my in-ears and suddenly the rest of the band wanted them and I played so much better without having the PA to worry about. FOH was just glorious , enough for the audience to notice. The tech helps but the fleshy bit between the ears is what counts, and the ears themselves of course. Mine are shot to hell unfortunately.

[tauzero]

4 hours ago, VTypeV4 said:

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of tablet based mixers but it's not that there's anything wrong with them, I just really prefer some physical / tactile control and actual faders. The Soundcraft UI24 was the last one I used and it had all the usual suspects with dynamics and EQ on all the I/O plus the 4 FX units were pretty serviceable too..

 

I like a hybrid approach so I use a Behringer BCF2000 linked by MIDI to the XR18 and a tablet on my mic stand. I find control of faders a lot easier when they're physical.

[JPJ]

23 minutes ago, tauzero said:

 

I like a hybrid approach so I use a Behringer BCF2000 linked by MIDI to the XR18 and a tablet on my mic stand. I find control of faders a lot easier when they're physical.

I do the same, albeit using a Behringer X-Touch that I managed to pick up secondhand for about half the price of new. But of late I’ve found I’m making less and less on-the-fly adjustments mid-gig. I think this is a combination of finally having both my bands ‘dialled in’ and also having a settled FOH set up. The game changer for me was the addition of the dBX Driverack between the XR18 and the FOH speakers. 

[jimmyb625]

On 13/07/2024 at 13:41, JPJ said:

I do the same, albeit using a Behringer X-Touch that I managed to pick up secondhand for about half the price of new. But of late I’ve found I’m making less and less on-the-fly adjustments mid-gig. I think this is a combination of finally having both my bands ‘dialled in’ and also having a settled FOH set up. The game changer for me was the addition of the dBX Driverack between the XR18 and the FOH speakers. 

I was going to say, the x-touch with the XR18 is a great combination. 

The biggest downfall (in my opinion) with the Allen & Heath QU-SB is that it's difficult to get an external control surface to play nicely with it.

[Dan Dare]

Very helpful conversation about live sound mixing with FoH engineer Dave Natale on Rick Beato's channel. His observations about global eq towards the end are particularly interesting.

 

 

[Chienmortbb]

I will watch that video with interest later but I wonder if the need for a physical control layer is as much a "tablet phobia"? I have the CQ20 and after struggling initially with some of the finer points, I find the level of control I can get on an iPad is superb once you learn all the fine adjustment tricks. Te same was true of the Soundcraft UI16.

[JPJ]

Brilliant video, thanks for sharing.