Powered bass cab / active bass cab for use with a Kemper

[Jack]

6 hours ago, BigRedX said:

 

Why do you need amp and cab models? In real life their primary function is to make your line or instrument level signal loud enough to hear over the drummer. 

 

All a modelled amp does is give you a pre-set EQ curve with some adjustments, and is out-performed by any number of dedicated EQ modules. A bass cab is essentially just a low pass filter. IME adding amp and cab models to my Helix signal chain makes the overall sound much worse. I do use a couple of guitar amp models mostly because I either like the EQ frequencies or the drive sound. The rest of my patches don't have any amp or cab models and sound all the better for it.

 

Remember that a lot of classic recorded bass sounds are the bass guitar straight into the desk or studio EQ unit, and haven't been anywhere near a traditional bass rig.

I disagree with a lot of that mind.

 

I agree with you that, a lot of the time, you don't need an amp or cab model to achieve great tones, or even the tone you want. A lot of my helix patches don't have amp and cab sims. The 'artistry' or whether or not one should use an amp model, cab model, or IR is up to personal choice. However, factually speaking the amp and cab models in the helix (and especially in the kemper) are much much more than just eq filters. They're an interactive, deep, musical, piece of code that can do things to a sound that no amount of eq could ever do. Except maybe a constantly adjusted, instant real time eq along with compression and distortion. But if we're doing that, then isn't everything that we do (including note choice) just eq?

[BigRedX]

Maybe it didn't come across very well, but I was trying to question the assumption that you had to have a device with amp and cab models in it to get the best out of an FRFR cab.

 

I think a lot of my particular bias comes from the fact that most of the time (almost 45 years now) I haven't had anything remotely resembling a traditional bass rig, and even for the relatively brief period when I did, any colouration the amp and cabs added was completely overshadowed by the Bass Pod that was also in the signal chain, something that was brought home by the fact that when I was had a large and small rig the difference in sound between the two could be eliminated by slight EQ tweaks on the Bass Pod.

[Jack]

Yeah of course man, I know me and you have been on thread before extolling the virtues of the guitar amp models in Helix, or just not using any amps/cabs at all. I just wouldn't want someone new to digital fakery thinking that amp models were just an eq block is all.

 

Funnily enough I've joined a pop punk band. I attacked the Helix the way I normally would and never quite got it right, until I had to make a patch really quickly and so I just faked a normal rig and set up a patch using an SVT/810 model with a compressor after it. Stuck with it, it's the right sound for this band. I mean, yawn, but it works!

[vinorange]

5 minutes ago, Jack said:

Yeah of course man, I know me and you have been on thread before extolling the virtues of the guitar amp models in Helix, or just not using any amps/cabs at all. I just wouldn't want someone new to digital fakery thinking that amp models were just an eq block is all.

 

Funnily enough I've joined a pop punk band. I attacked the Helix the way I normally would and never quite got it right, until I had to make a patch really quickly and so I just faked a normal rig and set up a patch using an SVT/810 model with a compressor after it. Stuck with it, it's the right sound for this band. I mean, yawn, but it works!

This is why I'm keen on the no amp set up. I searched for ages and tweaked an SVT profile on the kemper and through my home monitors it sounds brilliant with all my basses. It's the sound I want to carry into the live environment. That may change in a band situation but the kemper is so editable that I know with a few tweaks I'll be able to dial in what I need.

[Jack]

They're great units. Just like BigRedX I've a history of trying to make a bass amp more like a pa system. I've had racks with channel strips and pa power amps, as well as Kempers, Helicies and a few others. I had an original rack bass pod pro! The only frfr cabs I ever used with my Kemper were a pair (well, usually just one) Barefaced FR800. Sadly discontinued and something that I really regret selling, but just awesome. 800 watts into what was essentially a Barefaced Big Baby. My Kemper never crossed over with any of my other attempts at frfr stage amplification but I have no reason to believe it wouldn't work just fine with any of the usual contenders from RCF, QSC, etc.

 

Sorry about the crap photo. Camera phones weren't so good in eons passed

[Phil Starr]

On 25/06/2024 at 20:15, vinorange said:

Great questions. 3 piece, guitar, bass, drums, rock and indie. Not especially noisy. Just enough to compete with acoustic drums. Guitarist isn’t too loud. No FoH yet as it’s early days. If I was using a traditional rig I’d probably pick 400w and a 2x12. Budget preferably sub £750 and I’d prefer light as I don’t fancy lifting ceramic drivers in a birch cab any more……I did use Eden and Tech 21 VT500 previously for a bright zingy but deep tone.

Thanks for your reply.

I've moved entirely to using the PA for relaying my bass to the audience and your idea for taking your sound with you is an excellent one. Since you don't have FOH yet it makes sense to plan to put bass through the PA along with everything else right from the start. You can keep the sound levels on stage down to the reasonable levels you get in the rehearsal room. If you go out and gig with just vocal PA then you are going to have to turn up your backline a lot to reach everyone in the room and ironically louder on stage sound means you won't hear each other as well as you do at rehearsals. There's lots of other technical reasons why this is better sounding for the audience too. By planning this from the start you can save on upgrading everyone's back line and spend it on a better PA.

 

So you only need your cab for on stage monitoring, keeping the sound from the rehearsal room. With one of my bands I use an RCF ART310 as a monitor fed from a Zoom or a SansAmp. I've also used the 310 as backline with PA support and in the rehearsal room as my only amplification and one has been loud enough for both me and the rest of the band to hear the bass clearly. I also have conventional bass rigs which I use less often and my 1x10 bass cab is usually enough there too, with PA doing the heavy lifting out front. The first rule of thumb is that you aren't going to get more bass out of a PA speaker than a bass speaker. Because of the horn you'll hear more clearly from the PA speaker than a bass speaker. Also you'll have to roll off the bass a few db as the PA speaker is designed to give a flat response up on a pole. Some PA speakers have a switch to do this so they can be used as floor monitors.

 

I've moved on with two other bands to using in-ears. I play in both bands with the same drummer and she has an electronic kit so we don't need backline at all. If we have a dep drummer or singer who use a full kit or who won't use in ears I take my little 1x10 frfr set up and it's always been plenty. The great thing is that I can take the same bass sound I get in headphones or studio monitors with me to go out through the PA and on stage through a floor monitor or my bass rig. My experience is that even the ART 310 has been enough. I've used the QSC 12.2 and I have RCF745's which have also been recommended and they are great too, I've just never needed to go that loud. I only say this to say this is my experience, you play with different people and probably different music but for me a 1x10 PA speaker has always been good enough as my on stage sound.

 

 

 

 

[vinorange]

I've gone for an RCF 735A so here starts my venture into the world of profiled bass sounds in a live environment. Here's hoping.....

[warwickhunt]

You've gone straight in with a big boy then!