Playing over Giant Steps using Cells

[Mikey D]

Just a quick video of cell playing ala Jerry Bergonzi's teaching method using this new fangled 4 finger technique!

Thought I would give it a go now that I have put a couple of months into learning to use four fingers and being a bit more comfortable on my Ibanez Fretless.

Note to self: Memorise changes next time so you don't have to read them!


Any questions or flames appreciated...although I now the sound isn't best quality, that is something I need to find a better way to do on my mac.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtaIKnT8O4M"]I is just put it up on on Utubes na!!![/url]

[urb]

Hey man - good explanation and exaple video - it'd be cool to see you take a solo and just hear some of your ideas as well. I like to try and practice stuf like this but in the heat of the moment I'm damned if I can remember the exact way I did it at home - I actually try and think as little as possible when I solo in jazz and just aim for harmonic target points or just sing-and-play which is the best way to synch up what's in your head and getting it out onto the fretboard.

I made a vid a while ago now wheere I managed to actually get as relaxed on Giant Steps as I ever have been when practicing - by this I mean I just played with my instincts and ear rather than thinking about technique or anything else - I'd love to incorporate some of these 'cell' ideas into my playing but they somtimes appear/occur naturally - anyway here's the shizzle:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SWoY-s6aqY"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SWoY-s6aqY[/url]

Keep the jazz coming dude - loving the Willis bass and the four-finger technique - it's all good.

Cheers

Mike

[Mikey D]

[quote name='urb' post='51919' date='Aug 28 2007, 08:03 PM']Hey man - good explanation and exaple video - it'd be cool to see you take a solo and just hear some of your ideas as well. I like to try and practice stuf like this but in the heat of the moment I'm damned if I can remember the exact way I did it at home - I actually try and think as little as possible when I solo in jazz and just aim for harmonic target points or just sing-and-play which is the best way to synch up what's in your head and getting it out onto the fretboard.

I made a vid a while ago now wheere I managed to actually get as relaxed on Giant Steps as I ever have been when practicing - by this I mean I just played with my instincts and ear rather than thinking about technique or anything else - I'd love to incorporate some of these 'cell' ideas into my playing but they somtimes appear/occur naturally - anyway here's the shizzle:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SWoY-s6aqY"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SWoY-s6aqY[/url]

Keep the jazz coming dude - loving the Willis bass and the four-finger technique - it's all good.

Cheers

Mike[/quote]

Cheers, yeah I have seen your video before, I like it. To be honest, I have only just started looking at 4 fingers and especially Giant Steps (notice my head going between looking at the fretboard and the book!?), but one of my mates asked me about cells as I have been learning Coltrane's solo and noticed the use of them quite a lot. I am also studying from the Bergonzi books (as well as a million others!!).

I feel there are two ways of playing over something like this (or anything for that matter), intellectually (learning many cells, scales and arpeggios over the form as well as other things) and merely by ear alone and to be honest my ear is my weakest asset at the moment, but I'm working on it.

However with the two combined the ideas are almost limitless, this one cell is just the start of the journey.

For example only play 1235 on a chord (1345 on minor) in all possible orders gives you 24 permutations. Then you can play inversions of these notes so you actually have 96(!!) permutations for each chord type from this basic cell. Thats not even thinking about rhythm and/or missing out notes. Thats a lot of different ways to play Giant Steps already. Then you can move onto different cells of different scale tones 9-10-#11-13 for example. From this methodical way of playing and using your ears you can create great sounding flowing lines that go through the changes. Then of course you can start adding enclosures, approach tones, skips, phrasing, rhythmic patterns etc to create absolutely anything, of course the ultimate aim as always is to think of nothing and let all the things you have learnt come out as your improvisation, as you'll probably agree.

On a personal note I practice this because I want this 'sound' in my changes playing. It's is not for everyone, but if I don't practice it, it won't show as much (or at all) in my improv.

As you said, you probably play some cells already, everyone does, because the shape falls easily under the hand and your ears tell you it sounds right. And in this case they fit the four finger style better than a lot of other shapes, if you like it just do a few minutes every day, with a different permutation, preferably one that your hands don't like playing and before you know it, it will be in your solos. If you want it that is!

Not sure how confident I am about playing over the changes yet, but I'll give it a go soon enough and will put a video up here for critique.

[steve]

wow, that's some really impressive playing.

can either of you explain the idea behind cell playing, or point me in the direction of a website, I'm intrigued

thanks

[urb]

[quote name='steve' post='52059' date='Aug 29 2007, 12:03 AM']wow, that's some really impressive playing.

can either of you explain the idea behind cell playing, or point me in the direction of a website, I'm intrigued

thanks[/quote]

As Mr D says it's really just a cell of notes - you could say four walls to a cell - four notes to a cell - but as with any simple principle in music extrating the formula out into its fullest possibilities is a huge task and a challenge that might take a lifetime to barely scartch the surface of.

You can try playing a group of four note 1235 over any chord - try moving it diatonically through the scale or in the case of a tune with fast moving changes like Giant Steps, you can save yourself the hassle of running up and down scales with this type of harmonic 'shorthand' - it's still exciting harmonically but it's the repeptition of the idea that builds excitement and tension - if you are REALLY good then you can keep this idea going through loads of variations and the audience will thnk "how long can he keep this up?" which again builds tension and excitement into your solo. It's a hell of a challenge but then that's jazz - it's very very challenging!

Mikey - a great book for ear traiing is Gary Willis' Complete Guide for Ear Trainging - or something like that - it has a CD and is brilliantly put together - really good stuff and very helpful. The one thing I have found most helpful in the short term with ear stuff is recognising the sounds of certain chord types - i.e. major, minor (obviously), diminished, augmented, aumented 5th etc - I've found myself quite comfortably continuing to solo by ear - even when I lost my way on the chord chart on a jam session - and I still got 'nice solo' said to me afterwards - though I was completely busking it!

Good stuff anyways - jazz is good!

Mike

[Mikey D]

[quote name='steve' post='52059' date='Aug 29 2007, 12:03 AM']wow, that's some really impressive playing.

can either of you explain the idea behind cell playing, or point me in the direction of a website, I'm intrigued

thanks[/quote]

To be honest, it is not that impressive when you know how to do it! Just take things slowly and you will a vast improvement in no time at all. I only spent a few hours getting this cell thing under my fingers before recording it, I knew the theory of it quite weel though, just never tried to implement it.

It basically comes down to limiting yourself when improvising. In this case, to four notes, and the particular four notes I have used in the video are the most basic ones to start with and sound most in unity wwith the chord you are playing over them.

If you have a library I recommend Jerry Bergonzi's Vol1 Melodic Structures Book, to be honest you don't need to buy it as it is about 100 pages, but if you get the idea of the concept down, you can work the rest out yourself.

The way I look it is there are three basic cells you can play over a chord using the following notes (the numbers are the degree of the scale) with each one using more upper extensions. Of course there are other cells, but limiting yourself at first will help you get a greater understanding of this technique. Here are the three cells you should start with:

Major or Dominant (1 2 3 5) (5 6 7 9) (9 10 #11 13) If you notice each of these are exactly the same 'shape' on the bass, just starting on the root, 5th or 9th. Be careful with the 5 6 7 9 shape on the dominant though as it will create a major 7 instead of dominant 7. You can either alter it, miss it out, or just play it and see if you like the sound.

Minor7 (1 b3 4 5) (5 b7 8 9) (9 11 12 13) If you notice each of these are exactly the same 'shape' on the bass, just starting on the root, 5th or 9th.

So as I said in the other post each cell has 24 permutations, and including inversions, 96! permutations. So, now you know 3 shapes for each of the basic chord types, thats 288(!!) different things you can already play on a particular chord, just buy starting of with this one shape. I personally find it really interesting.
So to be honest, even if you only learn the minor shape and major shape, you can plag your play through a set of changes quite easily without even thinking what notes you are playing, but ideally you want to understand every note you play and why it is being played.

Edited August 29, 2007 by Mikey D

[Mikey D]

[quote name='urb' post='52146' date='Aug 29 2007, 09:04 AM']Mikey - a great book for ear traiing is Gary Willis' Complete Guide for Ear Trainging - or something like that - it has a CD and is brilliantly put together - really good stuff and very helpful. The one thing I have found most helpful in the short term with ear stuff is recognising the sounds of certain chord types - i.e. major, minor (obviously), diminished, augmented, aumented 5th etc - I've found myself quite comfortably continuing to solo by ear - even when I lost my way on the chord chart on a jam session - and I still got 'nice solo' said to me afterwards - though I was completely busking it!

Good stuff anyways - jazz is good!

Mike[/quote]

I'll have to check that one out, I have his bass, so why not his book! As part of my course I have had to learn to recognise chord types, which I can now do most of the time and scales which i find a little hard still on the more exotic ones. The main thing I have been doing is trying to transcribe chord changes by ear and singing along to everything I play. But when I get a bit of money I will have a look at that book. Cheers

[steve]

very interesting... thanks for explaining all that Mikey. It's stuff like this that challenges my shaky and very limited understanding of scales and theory, but in a good way - it always makes me want to delve deeper and understand more.

I have another question if you don't mind, you mention the first cell [color="#0000FF"]"Major or Dominant (1 2 3 5) (5 6 7 9) (9 10 #11 13)"[/color], but as I understand it, is an 11 not just an octave of a 4th? so will the #11 effectively be a #4? is that jazz???

Library, hmmmm, I vaguely remember hearing about one of those before some wiseguy invented the internet, I'll have to see if my local one wasn't demolished to make way for yet another fashion boutique!

[Mikey D]

[quote name='steve' post='52306' date='Aug 29 2007, 01:49 PM']I have another question if you don't mind, you mention the first cell [color="#0000FF"]"Major or Dominant (1 2 3 5) (5 6 7 9) (9 10 #11 13)"[/color], but as I understand it, is an 11 not just an octave of a 4th? so will the #11 effectively be a #4? is that jazz???

Library, hmmmm, I vaguely remember hearing about one of those before some wiseguy invented the internet, I'll have to see if my local one wasn't demolished to make way for yet another fashion boutique![/quote]

You are indeed right. If you are ever unsure of what an upper extension is above the octave, just subtract 7. So in this case it is the #4, but the tendancy is to call it the #11.

Jazzers tend to use the #11/#4 instead of the 11/4 as it has a brighter nicer sound on the tonic major. Also the 4th can also be called an avoid note on the tonic major, but really you just need to know how to resolve it properly. So when you try playing over a jazz piece instead of playing the major scale on the I, try playing the lydian scale on the tonic. It should sound nicer to the ear. (I can go into the whole Lydian Chromatic concept as laid out by George Russell, but that takes everything you have learned about western harmony and puts it on its head)
If you are ever unsure of any theory things, don't worry about Pm'ing me. If I have time I'll send an answer. (I'm a student, I'll have time! )

I'm going to do another video showing this concept a bit slower on another tune i think. As I should have the sound problem sorted for recording.

[steve]

[quote name='Mikey D' post='52330' date='Aug 29 2007, 02:22 PM']You are indeed right. If you are ever unsure of what an upper extension is above the octave, just subtract 7. So in this case it is the #4, but the tendancy is to call it the #11.

Jazzers tend to use the #11/#4 instead of the 11/4 as it has a brighter nicer sound on the tonic major. Also the 4th can also be called an avoid note on the tonic major, but really you just need to know how to resolve it properly. So when you try playing over a jazz piece instead of playing the major scale on the I, try playing the lydian scale on the tonic. It should sound nicer to the ear. (I can go into the whole Lydian Chromatic concept as laid out by George Russell, but that takes everything you have learned about western harmony and puts it on its head)
If you are ever unsure of any theory things, don't worry about Pm'ing me. If I have time I'll send an answer. (I'm a student, I'll have time! )

I'm going to do another video showing this concept a bit slower on another tune i think. As I should have the sound problem sorted for recording.[/quote]

thanks for that Mikey and thanks for the offer of further advice - your pm box will be bulging in a couple of weeks!