ardi100 Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 Hi Everyone, I'm hoping to gain some insight into dialling in heavily affected tones in a full band situation. I'm in a new band trying to emulate lots of 80s synth basslines. I'm doing it all on the cheap and only using my Boss GT1-B and an ancient Zoom 506II (!). I've watched a lot of videos and read a ton of pages about getting synth sounds and I've made a range of patches which sound pretty good at home. I'll typically use the single octave down into a fuzz then an envelope, sometimes with a modulation of some sort after all of that - depending on the goal tone that I'm aiming for. When I get into the rehearsal room it's all completely different and the sounds aren't what I thought they'd be - sometimes the bottom is missing, the fuzz is too much or it just doesn't sound very appealing. I've only ever used octaves and envelopes before with any regularity so I'm not really sure of concepts or rules to follow when trying to set up heavily affected tones. What do you advise? How should I try to set up patches so I can get closer to a gig friendly tone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 The easiest way is to get as close as you can at home and then fine-tune your patches during a technical rehearsal with your band. That means you need to know the user interfaces of your multi-effects back to front so you can make the right changes quickly and effectively (pun intended) in the practice room. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelDean Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 I'd try creating your patches at gig volume using your live rig (try renting a rehersal space for an hour or two) and asking the rest of the band for a bit of tweaking time while they play. A rehersal shouldn't just be "can we all play it?", it should include things like ensuring that you sound cohesive as a collective in order to deliver the best results. I was getting what I thought were great results with my GX-100 in isolation. They ended up not working in a band context. It wasn't until I did the above that it all clicked into place. Then, once you have those tones set, you have a point of reference for what tends to work with everyone else playing, so it isn't so arduous in the future. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ardi100 Posted July 5 Author Share Posted July 5 Great ideas, thanks. I use a laptop to tweak the parameters of the different effects in a patch fairly efficiently, so that's a possibility when I've nutted it out at gig volume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 7 minutes ago, ardi100 said: Great ideas, thanks. I use a laptop to tweak the parameters of the different effects in a patch fairly efficiently, so that's a possibility when I've nutted it out at gig volume. You'll need to take your laptop to rehearsals then, so you can quickly make the final changes required for the sound to be correct in a band setting. I know I keep banging on about how great the Helix is, but the user interface makes quick changes without the computer a doddle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ardi100 Posted July 5 Author Share Posted July 5 Just now, BigRedX said: You'll need to take your laptop to rehearsals then, so you can quickly make the final changes required for the sound to be correct in a band setting. I know I keep banging on about how great the Helix is, but the user interface makes quick changes without the computer a doddle. Yep, I find the GT1-B next to impossible tweak on the fly. Even at home with no pressure I can't get on with multiple presses of the same button to change parameters. I'm stuck with it though, as I have already maxed out my cab budget and won't be spending anything until I actually earn something from playing! I'm not holding my breath. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretmeister Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 Definitely have to set the sounds at full gig volume. Nothing else works. Good thing about modern modelling units is that there is enough memory to actually save venue specific patches. Massively speeds up sound check on the day. In the old days we did that with a little black book of settings or a venue, now we can just hit "Dog & Duck" patches and be done with it. Even better if the FOH desk has memory slots too. Saying all that though... I'd use a keyboard for 99% of synth sounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itu Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 As the rooms are different (size, furniture...) they have their own effect to your sounds. Our rehearsal space is not too big, and because of that bass has not so good low end (the room dimensions are not on my side). But out there on a gig in a bigger arena, the bass starts to sing! At exactly the same volume. After you have found some decent sounds in those two places mentioned, it may be feasible to keep your laptop with you while gigging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ardi100 Posted July 5 Author Share Posted July 5 I'd have to play a gig before I'd be saving venue specific patches! We're still rehearsing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ardi100 Posted July 5 Author Share Posted July 5 1 minute ago, itu said: As the rooms are different (size, furniture...) they have their own effect to your sounds. Our rehearsal space is not too big, and because of that bass has not so good low end (the room dimensions are not on my side). But out there on a gig in a bigger arena, the bass starts to sing! At exactly the same volume. After you have found some decent sounds in those two places mentioned, it may be feasible to keep your laptop with you while gigging. That's true - our rehearsal room is pretty small. It could be part of the problem. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 I tried out my new Ampeg Scrambler overdrive at rehearsal last night, had to have the drive on way more than I do at home volumes to even notice it, as others have said set the sounds at gigging volumes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_5 Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 I find this too; dirt is one of the first things to disappear in a mix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ardi100 Posted July 6 Author Share Posted July 6 15 hours ago, paul_5 said: I find this too; dirt is one of the first things to disappear in a mix. And dirt is an integral component of the synth sounds I'm setting up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted July 6 Share Posted July 6 16 hours ago, paul_5 said: I find this too; dirt is one of the first things to disappear in a mix. Agree, I had far more than I would usually choose but in the band mix it wasn’t noticeable at all as drive, just a warmer fatter sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted July 6 Share Posted July 6 On 05/07/2024 at 09:04, BigRedX said: The easiest way is to get as close as you can at home and then fine-tune your patches during a technical rehearsal with your band. Spot on. Assuming that your bandmates are reasonable people, you need to ask them to agree to a technical rehearsal which is all about your sound - they have to set their rigs to how they'll be at live gigs and agree to NOT twiddle the knobs while you're trying to establish the settings you need. Given that they'll be giving up an evening plus the cost of the practice space it's best to get them onside first. You will deffo need to take a simple but reliable handheld recorder ... my preference is the Zoom range (H1, H2 or H4). Have it set up for recording the sound in the room (i.e. don't take a DI from your rig or a feed from the room PA) and keep referring back to it during the session. Sometimes the sound in the room is surprisingly different from what you thought you were hearing while you were playing. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ardi100 Posted July 6 Author Share Posted July 6 I'm going to see how everything sounds tomorrow, I'll also see which ones work better so I can do some analysis. I'll float the idea of a technical rehearsal as well. I'm finding that I'm really enjoying trying to get the sounds right. It's a bit frustrating but the goals is worth pushing for! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted July 6 Share Posted July 6 17 hours ago, paul_5 said: I find this too; dirt is one of the first things to disappear in a mix. Which is why when you hear isolated bass guitar tracks, they always have much more drive/distortion on them then is noticeable in the final mix. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted July 6 Share Posted July 6 It's worth understanding some of the reasons why 'home' sound is so different from 'live' sound. The first is room acoustics, homes generally offer smaller spaces and a lot more soft surfaces with shorter reverberation times and you'll generally be closer to the speaker so more of the sound is travelling direct to your ears. Big rooms with large reflective surfaces mean a lot of multiple pathways to your ears and lots of comb filtering. A second factor is the presence of other instruments in the mix, Kick drums and toms are 'competing' with your lower frequencies and guitar and vocals with your upper middle. You need to emphasize the frequencies left to you a bit to be heard and that lovely mid scooped sound you have at home isn't going to cut it, you need to boost the mids and probably cut the bass to clean up the band sound and be heard amongst the other instruments. Thirdly your PA will interfere with your sound. The vocal mics will pick up any backline and the drums and amplify them out front. There will be some inherent delay in this and you'll get interference between this and your backline cancelling some frequencies and emphasizing others. Standing behind the PA speakers you'll hear all the bass someone in the front row will hear at the same volume, everything else is directional so you won't hear the mids and tops and you'll be swamped in bass from both directions. A fourth problem is volume. At home 80db is reasonably loud and 90db very loud, at the gig you'll probably be opreating at 100db plus. The frequency response of our hearing changes with volume with louder sounds exagerating bass and treble. This might make the bass sound 5-8db louder depending upon which frequency is involved. I'll put a graph underneath to illustrate this. You get round this by rolling back the bass and treble or emphasisning the mids again if you want to carry your carefully constructed sound into a live gig. Live sound is a messy business and it's rally hard to be perfect every time as every room is different and even the people in the room change the acoustics.. You just have to be flexible and a good set of ears helps a lot. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ezbass Posted July 6 Share Posted July 6 53 minutes ago, Phil Starr said: that lovely mid scooped sound you have at home isn't going to cut it, you need to boost the mids and probably cut the bass to clean up the band sound and be heard amongst the other instruments. ^^^ This, all day long. I’m used to it now, but the last 2 rigs I have owned are very mid centric (they’re actually flatish, but coming from a scooped rigs made them sound very different) and I was super disappointed when I got the first one home, as the sound wasn’t what I wanted to hear. However, in a band mix situation, this is what works, which meant that when I bought my current rig I wanted it in the same eq ballpark. Haven’t looked back. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xgsjx Posted July 7 Share Posted July 7 If you’re wanting to recreate 80s synth bass sounds, I’m gonna suggest getting a Roland Cloud Pro subscription, an audio interface & a midi keyboard to plug into your laptop. I did a lot of synth bass with pedals (& still do some), but synths do a far better job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ardi100 Posted July 8 Author Share Posted July 8 Wow, these replies are brilliant! Thanks all. While a lot of the factors are out of my control, my little tinkering to patches proved reasonably successful. The biggest win was dropping the attempt at a synth altogether for a couple of songs and just using a clean sound. This improved the whole sound of the band no end. I have a lot more digging to do! We've got two more rehearsals booked in before our fist gig and I don't know if we'll be able to schedule any more (it's really hard getting the five of us together as it is), but I'm going to suggest the instrumentalists arrive early for one and see if we can run a tech rehearsal then. Thanks again everyone. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 On 07/07/2024 at 09:53, xgsjx said: I did a lot of synth bass with pedals (& still do some), but synths do a far better job. Back in the 80s when I was first looking at this I found it quicker to develop enough rudimentary keyboard technique than it was to modify my guitar and bass playing style in order to get usable and repeatable synth sounds out of them. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SumOne Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 I love bass synth sounds, but similar to what others have said - I've had a lot more success with keyboards than the cost and effort needed to do it on a Bass Guitar. Even cheap and small keyboards just lend themselves to that particular job better. I have got a Bass Guitar to sound good live with quite synthy sounding fuzz and octavers and modulation and envelope filter combinations though. On the live vs home - I find that isn't just synth sounds, everything needs adjusting for a Amp/Cab played at volume in a venue and fitting with the rest of the band. Usually I find what can sound really harsh at home/headphones sounds good in the live setting (Rat or Tonebender type distortion being my winners live - but can sound pretty horrible at home though, whereas some muff type fuzzes can sound good at home but very un-defined/mushy live). Generally, I've found live that more mid/highs are needed to be heard, and perhaps cut some low to stop it being too boomy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xgsjx Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 A Rise & a laptop will give you all the sounds you need & loads of expression too. I use one of these to great effect. https://reverb.com/uk/p/roli-seaboard-rise-25 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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