How was your PA last night?

[Phil Starr]

OK, an obvious knock off of the 'How was your gig last night' thread over in the general discussion. I suspect it'll be more along the lines of what went wrong but it might be good to share general experiences and a few pics of your set up.

[Phil Starr]

I'll kick off. This was a gig with my four piece Blackout City but with a last minute dep singer due to our Emily not being well.

 

Pub was the Old Pier Tavern in Burnham-on-Sea great place for a band with a bit of a stage with plenty of space and a bit of a 'green room' and a loo behind the stage are so space to store all the guitar cases and bags after your've det up. PA was my trusty RCF 745's. Monitoring is usually just in-ears for all for of us but dep singer didn't use them so my RCF 310 served as her monitor. Normally only the guitarist uses any back line a 1x12 miked up for the PA and to be fair run at a fairly low level. last night I took a 1x10 with a Warwick Gnome just to add a little ambiance on stage for the singer. Sound check was 'interesting' until I remembered I'd been interrupted and hadn't connected the speakers to the mixer! Mixer is an RCF (again) M18 digital stagebox thingy. Plugged in and ready to go it sounded great from the off with the settings from the last gig. Floor monitor was run off the same feed our regular singer has set up for her in -ears. At her request I gave our dep a tiny bit of extra bass and guitar as Emily never really pushes in her in-ears and lets the stage sound filter through.

 

I'm loving this set up, the 745's really cope with everything with plenty of reserve, I've never been able to run them flat out even outdoors yet. The opening sound is just there, no obvious nasties or artificiality and feeedback issues are really rare nowadays due to a smooth response. the eDrums sound massive. After the sound check a musician in the audience came up and asked me seriously where I'd placed the subs as he couldn't see them. At the same time being able to recall your best ever settings is so great and I no longer line check, I can see the mics and so on working and pick up any dodgy leaads just by looking at the VU's on every channel. I'm feeling very smug before things start to go wrong.

 

Suddenly in the first song the mixer isn't working. I can turn things up and down on the iPad and nothings changing at the speakers. Panic, it's been acompletely reliable mixer for four years, not a twitch and now nothing works. Turned out I had my phone in my pocket and the Ipad had decided my iPhone was a better partner and had cut the connection to the mixer. It was probably only 30secs but God that seems a long time when everyone is watching you and waiting for the show to go on.

 

Halfway though the set someone rushes up and says we can't hear the singer, and to be fair she's started to fade in my in ears. Our drummer's partner mixes for us and she had the iPad so I couldn't see what was going on so I'm gesturing to get the IPad back; eventually it comes up and she's about 20db down from where I set her level. She's got her own radio mic and the output was almost line level so I'd reset the gain. I'm getting nothing from the radio mic now so I toss her my mic and we just play, I'm now mic-less and of course its the song where I do the bulk of the bv's so I plug a spare mic into her channel and we do the song. Guitarist hasn't noticed and says my vocals are all he can hear in his in ears and turning me down won't work and he can't hear his own vocals. Well it won't work because I'm on the channel labelled Emily and he's adjusting the one labelled Phil. Fortunately someone takes her radio mic away and comes back with it fixed (the battery was flat) I discover I'd unplugged Rob's vocal mic in the confusion and we finish the gig with everything working.

 

I need to calm down when things go wrong, and I need to think about re-labelling the mixer. At the worst moment I had four black mic leads and four empty sockets and no way of remembering which lead corresponded with which mic. On top of that my glasses were at the other end of the stage so I couldn't see very much. On the plus side Emma the dep singer sounded soooo much better through my mic (Sennheiser E935)  and I'm going to add the same reverb and delay that I use to that channel for the next gig.

[tauzero]

10 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

I need to calm down when things go wrong, and I need to think about re-labelling the mixer. At the worst moment I had four black mic leads and four empty sockets and no way of remembering which lead corresponded with which mic. On top of that my glasses were at the other end of the stage so I couldn't see very much.

 

I can fully relate to the glasses issue. For our leads, the singer/guitarist has his own which is red, I use a purple one for me, and the other guitarist uses one that I supply to him which is black. In your case, could you use coloured insulting tape round the lead ends and on the mixer?

[Phil Starr]

I love the idea of insulting tape. Sounds a bit Harry Potter but something that reminded me of all my faults when I went to the mixer might be a good thing

 

I have a box full of coloured leads I used when I ran a jam session/open mic. I carry spare batteries for all the bands various gadgets because they never check them. The trouble was a dep I'd only met half an hour before we went on and an unfamiliar mic. Which sounded awful btw, she sounded glorious once she used my mic.

 

But...  you are right, all my leads are marked but I've been encouraging the band to use their own leads to cut down the set up and knock down times and I've got complacent about nothing going wrong. Lesson learned

[police squad]

1 hour ago, Phil Starr said:

I love the idea of insulting tape. Sounds a bit Harry Potter but something that reminded me of all my faults when I went to the mixer might be a good thing

 

I have a box full of coloured leads I used when I ran a jam session/open mic. I carry spare batteries for all the bands various gadgets because they never check them. The trouble was a dep I'd only met half an hour before we went on and an unfamiliar mic. Which sounded awful btw, she sounded glorious once she used my mic.

 

But...  you are right, all my leads are marked but I've been encouraging the band to use their own leads to cut down the set up and knock down times and I've got complacent about nothing going wrong. Lesson learned

so many people dont use decent mic systems, especially wireless. Battery going flat is also a bit schoolboy too.

Well done for sorting it on the fly though

[Woodinblack]

Pretty good. Did two gigs at the weekend. Got compliments on how it sounds but there was trouble brewing, drummer is unhappy, saying he couldnt hear himself over the singer in his in ears, which makes no sense as there is none of the singer in the in ears. I figured it was the new keyboard player, who has brought along a monitor that is probably louder than the PA, but then noticed there is none of the singer in there. Turns out on saturday, he was complaining that he couldn't hear himself in the mains (ignoring the fact you can't really hear the mains from the back), but noticed that for his songs I turn him up and then back down. I pointed out I turn up the main vocalist for any song up, and the rest of us down, and I keep his sound down because he is only just slightly louder than the snare drum, and not as loud as the cymbals, and we don't want much of that in the main.

Watching the video back of the saturday I noticed that on my song, if I move a fraction away from the microphone I dissapear, so I looked up, and sure enough, the TCE MP75 is a super cardioid, so I thought I would try my spare mic, which is a behringer copy of another mic. 

 

Sunday gig the drummer decides to bring his old mixer to mix all the drums and his mic, not sure how he is going to do that. Spends a long time setting them up and then realises that there is something wrong with the mixer and its only coming out of one ear on the headphones, sometimes, if you hit the button a few times.

So goes back to my mixer. I use the other microphone and I no longer have the huge directional issues so that goes well, although its output is way down on the other one and doesn't really sound as good, its easier to use. I keep the vocals levels higher as it is outside, and everyone seems happy.

Talking to the drummer, he had also looked up microphones, realised he needed a new microphone, and how much it is, and no longer has a problem!

[Phil Starr]

1 hour ago, Woodinblack said:

Talking to the drummer, he had also looked up microphones, realised he needed a new microphone, and how much it is, and no longer has a problem!

😂

[Gasman]

As told at length in another PA thread, difficulties in getting to grips with our new Bose setup caused my band to split. Not wanting to retell an old story, what were the problems experienced? From my PoV as the sax player in one short set I was never able to get decent foldback from either the Bose or the old PA to hear what the audience was hearing, nor was there ever any pre-gig time to let me set up my Sennheiser IEMs ('not worth it for three numbers' they said, maybe right). I use a Nux radio mic for the sax but feedback issues prevented me from going FoH to hear the mix, so believe me trying to hear what you're playing while competing with mic-ed drums, singers and amplified instruments onstage with a wind instrument is busted blood-vessel, out-of-tune and bad intonation territory.

 

While on my main bass duties, being wireless too (Nux again) was great, allowing me to go out-front to hear the mix during soundchecks. However, although when using the Bose system everything went through the PA,  foldback during the actual gig was really difficult to get right because the FB system was just cobbled together from surplus gear and there was never enough of it to give me any at all, so I found myself using my Ag700+Darkglass 1000w cab as my on-stage monitor - ridiculous! 

 

So what's the remedy? Pay serious attention to getting the FoH AND foldback gear, volumes and mixes right, and if possible go IEM for everyone - we never did because of a lack of inclination, equipment, time and skills available. Sounds simple, and it can be, but using practice sessions with unrepresentative gear in an equally unrepresentative hall without a sound guy available just won't cut it!

[Phil Starr]

On 10/07/2024 at 08:48, Gasman said:

As told at length in another PA thread, difficulties in getting to grips with our new Bose setup caused my band to split. Not wanting to retell an old story, what were the problems experienced? From my PoV as the sax player in one short set I was never able to get decent foldback from either the Bose or the old PA to hear what the audience was hearing, nor was there ever any pre-gig time to let me set up my Sennheiser IEMs ('not worth it for three numbers' they said, maybe right). I use a Nux radio mic for the sax but feedback issues prevented me from going FoH to hear the mix, so believe me trying to hear what you're playing while competing with mic-ed drums, singers and amplified instruments onstage with a wind instrument is busted blood-vessel, out-of-tune and bad intonation territory.

 

While on my main bass duties, being wireless too (Nux again) was great, allowing me to go out-front to hear the mix during soundchecks. However, although when using the Bose system everything went through the PA,  foldback during the actual gig was really difficult to get right because the FB system was just cobbled together from surplus gear and there was never enough of it to give me any at all, so I found myself using my Ag700+Darkglass 1000w cab as my on-stage monitor - ridiculous! 

 

So what's the remedy? Pay serious attention to getting the FoH AND foldback gear, volumes and mixes right, and if possible go IEM for everyone - we never did because of a lack of inclination, equipment, time and skills available. Sounds simple, and it can be, but using practice sessions with unrepresentative gear in an equally unrepresentative hall without a sound guy available just won't cut it!

This raises so many issues. A sax isn't exactly quiet so if you weren't hearing much sax how loud was your on-stage sound and who was making all the noise? Did they park you next to a drummer? Were they using the Bose set up with the PA acting as both monitor and FOH? It doesn't work for anything louder than an acoustic act.

It's not worth it for three numbers!!! Wellu set it up at rehearsal and remember the settings. Do it properly once and then repeat every time. It's only one connection to make to the Sennheiser ffs.

The biggest issue though is the monitoring. My take is that monitoring is more important than the FOH even for the audience who won't hear it. FOH can only amplify what is being played, if you are hesitant in what you play because you can't hear the rest of the band you can't be tight. If you aren't getting a good version of your own sound then you aren't making all those tiny adjustments that make for a polished performance.

 

I usually run the PA. but if I play with an unknown band I'll carry my own monitors, in ears for preference and i've got a little mixer and a DI/splitter so I can mix my own signal with whatever signal they are sending me. I've even taken a signal direct from the FOH speakers. If it's a professional hire company running sound I also set up a back line amp which is on but turned right down until I know the monitor mix is OK. Most sound engineers are great but when you are low down the pecking order as a band you can get someone else's monitor mix or none at all and playing when you cant hear anything at all is not something I ever want to do again. There are a few tried and tested ways you could use your in-ears without direct connection to the mixer if you are interested.

Edited July 18 by Phil Starr

[Gasman]

Good words, good ideas, @Phil Starr - I just wish I could implement some of them!

 

Since the original guitarist left we have had to use deps, or (this weekend) go as a 4-piece as no dep is available. The line-up is fluctuating wildly all the time so the sax set is being parked until things settle down. We are now using the old conventional PA but only vox and acoustic guitar go through it on gigs with minimal foldback, I'm back to using my bass rig in standalone mode. At rehearsals the singist plugs her mic into a portable combo to minimise load-in/out so the sound is totally unrepresentative so it isn't worth even trying to get my IEM setup sorted - those sessions are really for learning new numbers only.

 

I am already rather depressed due to non-musical family problems, so this whole band fluster-cluck is making things even more difficult.... so should I chuck it in or do a Churchill ('just keep bu**ering on...')?

[Chienmortbb]

We have not gigged for a while, one of our guitarists had a heart attack a couple of month ago and we had to cancel some gigs. We did one gig as a 4 piece that went quite well. This weekend we are supposed to be playing as a 5 again. The  venue is one where we have struggled to hear each other in the past. Only vocals go through the PA  and as the guitards are on either side of the stage and this stage is wide.

 

I have pushed to go IEM or at least get a better monitoring system but there are two dinosaurs in the band. The singer is one and he is the youngest. My last attempt at suggesting IEMs was met with "I hate them and will never use them". The guitarist that had the heart attack has commented more than once that  he has never seen anyone with more leeds, meaning why have I go so many? Of course they all turn to me when I have an Allen and Heath CQ20 and I love it, it is more than enough to put all of us through the PA and have a mono monitor mix each. I also have enough speakers including some active subs.  That stays in the car as a back-up though

 

I usually try hard to get the best from what we have but this gig I am letting them all get on with it.

[police squad]

3 hours ago, Gasman said:

Good words, good ideas, @Phil Starr - I just wish I could implement some of them!

 

 

I am already rather depressed due to non-musical family problems, so this whole band fluster-cluck is making things even more difficult.... so should I chuck it in or do a Churchill ('just keep bu**ering on...')?

If you can see a way forward and it will settle down, keep buggering on. (this is what I used to do and it was eventually ok)

 

If you don't think it will settle, personally, I would have to leave. Life is just too short to have to deal with sh!t from bands. I folded my last band due to the idiot guitarist bullying the new drummer. Band mates wouldn't listen to my solution (which was to get my wife on the bass and me switch to guitar and everything would have improved, she does BVs and plays like me) So I folded it

[Phil Starr]

Another Saturday another gig. Same band with our regular singer but a dep drummer. Fortunately he rocked up to the rehearsal with an electronic kit and was pleasantly surprised to find he didn't have to bring the DW kit to the gig. Just as well as there wouldn't have been space. The pub is made up of small rooms and there wasn't a lot of space. It's pretty small too. Given the lack of space I decided to try swapping out the RCF745's for RCF ART 310's, last weeks monitors. Dep drummer was happy to use in-ears and even had his own wireless connection. I say try because we had plenty of time to sound check for once and I was concerned that asking them to do all the drum sound and my bass might be a stretch. I needn't have worried out in the audience area soundchecking the first thing anyone said was 'drums sound great, bass needs to go down. Don't you love it when a musician from another band is 'helpful'. He was right though The only extra task for me was sorting the monitor mix for the dep. We played halfway through the first song before we realised the PA was muted. Not one of the band had noticed. The in-ear sound is that good and can be as trouser flapping as you like. I played the second song with no in ears so I could walk out to listen to FOH. We were getting a lot of bass on stage but FOH was crystal and pretty much what was in my headphones so all was well apart from an unfortunate resonance on stage. I added a bit of extra HPF to the vocal mics just in case and fingered the bar itself as a source of the reverb so turned down the speaker on that side a little and the one opposite up a touch and the problem disappeared.

 

Really pleased with the ART 310's. I use them all the time with the duo but this was first time without subs with the full band and the sound level was limited by feedback problems and not at all by distortion or lack of volume. I was concerned by how they would do without subs but needn't have worried. It was a small room but people were dancing in the next room as well so the sound was filling the pub. So @Al Krow asked if you could gig with anything smaller than 12" tops and put everything though. IME that night I'd say you can, even without a sub.

 

[mrtcat]

Three gigs this weekend. All with the same band all with our usual PA (2x RCF 745 mk4 + 2x RCF 705AS2). All on in ears. No issues at all. One room was a bit lively but the usual rta eq trick helped along with easing off the volume. We don't really ever encounter issues using this setup because we all have control of our own iems, we all are on top of battery charging and everyone is happy to set and forget their backline volume. Drummer is a really decent player so can get the dynamics without having to thrash the kit on the days where we need to keep the noise down a bit. 

[Phil Starr]

34 minutes ago, mrtcat said:

Three gigs this weekend. All with the same band all with our usual PA (2x + 2x RCF 705AS2). All on in ears. No issues at all. One room was a bit lively but the usual rta eq trick helped along with easing off the volume. We don't really ever encounter issues using this setup because we all have control of our own iems, we all are on top of battery charging and everyone is happy to set and forget their backline volume. Drummer is a really decent player so can get the dynamics without having to thrash the kit on the days where we need to keep the noise down a bit. 

Three gigs is just greedy

 

Since I bought my RCF 745 mk4's a couple of years ago I haven't needed anything else and the consistency of our sound is magic. Moving from floor monitors to in-ears has added the final part to the picture. I have subs but rarely 'need' them. I suspect your's is a more professional band than our weekend warriors and we don't really play much other than pubs and clubs. You don't mention the rest of your system (neither did I, but it is in earlier posts). I guess the big question is which mixer you use?

[JPJ]

How was the PA? Perfect, thanks for asking!

I’ve waxed lyrical on here before about my ‘system’ that comprises of the Behringer X-Air XR18, 2xEV ZLX15P, and two Peavey Pro 15” powered bass bins, all kept under control by the dBX DriveRack. It’s not the loudest, but I manage to get a good sound out of it (or so I’m told) and it’s the perfect rig for gigs like ours yesterday where the band set up at the back of a long narrowish pub. Four out of five of us now use IEM’s and yesterday was the first time when the singer had control of his own mix via the X Air Q app which he loved. 
The next logical step is to upgrade the FOH and go silent stage, but given that we only do around 12 - 15 gigs a year, the expense is really unwarranted. I’ve always got my eyes open in case a bargain pair of matching EV 18” bins come up local to me but I’m in no rush. 

[police squad]

I gigged on saturday, small pub, QSC K12s no subs and A&H Zed FX desk

IEM coming from headphone socket so I get a FOH sound.

No wireless gear at all (my back is still playing up, so I need a really easy setup) so wired mic, guitar and IEM

sounded awesome

 

 

[mrtcat]

4 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

Three gigs is just greedy

 

Since I bought my RCF 745 mk4's a couple of years ago I haven't needed anything else and the consistency of our sound is magic. Moving from floor monitors to in-ears has added the final part to the picture. I have subs but rarely 'need' them. I suspect your's is a more professional band than our weekend warriors and we don't really play much other than pubs and clubs. You don't mention the rest of your system (neither did I, but it is in earlier posts). I guess the big question is which mixer you use?

So we're mostly doing weddings or corporate events. We don't do pubs but we are essentially just a glorified pub band with a good agent 🙂

 

Mixer is a Behringer XR18. We had an X32 rack at one point but it was just massive overkill for us. We have really slimmed down the amount of gear we take to gigs and being able to mount a mixer and 4 x wireless IEM transmitters into a standard 4u rack case is a win. We're a 4 piece with bass, drums, lead guitar and a singer who plays rhythm guitar and keys. Myself and guitarist also add bv's. Although we use acoustic drums we use a Yamaha EAD10 so the kit only takes up 2 channels. The EAD is the only real compromise we make because you can't separate the sampled kick and kit mics after they've been sent to the desk. If you turn the kit mics down to reduce cymbals & snare in the front of house you're also turning them down for the in ear mix. We have a cheap condenser mic in the kit box just in case we have to drop them right out in small or overly lively rooms. 

[Phil Starr]

7 hours ago, mrtcat said:

We don't do pubs but we are essentially just a glorified pub band with a good agent 🙂

Sounds like heaven. The EAD looks like a nice piece of kit. I love practicality.

[mrtcat]

23 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

The EAD looks like a nice piece of kit. I love practicality.

It definitely saves a lot of hassle and is pretty easy to use. 

[Rik (ESA)]

This thread is incredibly useful as I’m currently looking at the RCF 745s and how they fair live with and without subs etc.

[zitherman]

Given the love on here for art 310s how do they compare to srm450s if a sub was added.

[Phil Starr]

You'd probably expect the SRM450's to be louder. I think the original models used RCF drivers and all other things being equal you'd get more volume from a 12 than a 10. My memory of the SRM450's is that they were slighly bright sounding wheras the ART310s are very neutral. I mainly use mine as stage monitors where a flat response helps keep feedback down. Remember too that the 310's are the base model in the range and now discontinued apart from a batch that Thomann are selling off at a good price. The ART 710's and ART 910's are slightly more sensitive (louder) and probably better sounding, but I haven't tried them. The QSC 10 would be worth a look too but is slightly pricey.

 

Adding a sub to any speaker lets you push it harder as well as improvingthe bass response.

 

You shared some video of your band with me that I enjoyed, I don't think you are looking for out and out power and you might get on well with a couple of decent 10's and it does reduce the carrying in and setting up to use appropriate speakers. The vocal quality of the RCF 310's is great and they do acoustic instruments well. They are also reliable and hold their value well. If you are looking for a compact system at a good price they are well worth thinking about. I don't think I'd use mine with a loud drummer for a full on rock band in a bigger venue. Up to 100 people with your style of music I'd say you'd be OK and they are a damn sight easier to get onto the poles than the ART745's

[Woodinblack]

Last night we did a gig with a multi band setup, but with our own PA (which seemed a bit odd, and involved fast changeovers). As usual we had our (my) PA which consists of a pair of EVOX8 speakers, in a variety of colours. I am bass speaker-less these days and go through the PA, not 100% happy with it at the moment but it works in general. The room was shiny floor, shiny ceiling, sounds like a swimming pool, resonant frequency of an E! Got it the best we could, and it sounded clear enough.

Group after us, much more professional (and tidier stage which I think was good), good lights (which were on for us too), speakers were a pair of RCF 712s on stalks on top of some furry Eurolive 1800, guitarist DI'd marshal amp, bass player, didn't see what but same thing. Mic'd drum kit. Obviously way more money than our setup. Listened to their first few songs and the vocals weren't at all clear (instruments sounded great). Just seemed way too much for the venue (would have been killer outdoors I would imagine).

 

Such a tidy stage though, jealous of that.

[Chienmortbb]

Last week, we  used our ancient powered mixer and a pair of Ramsa 8s as the monitors. We have used them for a few gigs and not had a problem. This time, at soundcheck the drummer said he could not hear the monitors. of course I had forgotten that they  have a narrow dispersion 60x60.  Changing the angle solved the problem and made me realise that since using them we have had no feedback problems from the monitors.

 

It is not something you always consider when looking at a PA speaker.