How was your PA last night?

[Chienmortbb]

3 hours ago, Pirellithecat said:

😭 Some ignorant fool snug in and offered them £800!   And they sold it .........  I tried offering them my 1200 CD's PLUS £405, but they just wouldn't see reason. 
Can't trust anyone these days ................ 

Bum

[Pirellithecat]

`

2 Gigs in 2 days and best sound ever!!  (helped by vocalist's dad's ears in the audience!!). 
Still work to do on the tendency for "brightness" on female vocals when at "Full Bore".  But otherwise ...... no feedback, great sound on stage, much better sound out front, REDUCED stress = better playing by me and much more fun!  The secret ....... IGNORE all helpful comments from band members (except can you give me more "x" in monitor), just nod sagely and do what's best!!

Organiser came up at end of second set and asked us to play for another 45mins!! so must have been good!   

[police squad]

yesterday was my annual bank holiday bash, which I play bass and run the PA for 3 guitarists, drummer, keys, 3 singers, a couple of guests on sax and a 12 string guitarist.

I read about putting the bass bins next to each other, which I did.

Man alive was it good. I will be doing this always now

[Mickeyboro]

1 hour ago, police squad said:

yesterday was my annual bank holiday bash, which I play bass and run the PA for 3 guitarists, drummer, keys, 3 singers, a couple of guests on sax and a 12 string guitarist.

I read about putting the bass bins next to each other, which I did.

Man alive was it good. I will be doing this always now

Sorry, ignore -  I ain’t woken up yet!

Edited August 27 by Mickeyboro

[Mickeyboro]

18 hours ago, Pirellithecat said:

 

What is your personal gear and instrument set-up?🙏

Typical the bassist is always obscured😂
And yes, I realise this is about the PA!

Edited August 27 by Mickeyboro

[JPJ]

19 hours ago, Pirellithecat said:

The secret ....... IGNORE all helpful comments from band members (except can you give me more "x" in monitor), just nod sagely and do what's best!!

 

This, and have a DFA (does feck all) fader for the ones who insist on watching you make a change 😉

[northstreet]

So on Saturday we were at a social club we know well, with a nice big stage and decent acoustics. Took our usual set up of Electrovoice ZLX 15" tops, Mackie Thumps as monitors/back up tops, and a Zoom LiveTrak L-12 mixer. Not my favouritest mixer, as it's not quite as intuitive as it likes to think it is, but it has the advantage of being both relatively compact and having multiple monitor outputs. We run two vocals, guitar and kick drum through the PA, the guitarist uses a small amp for monitoring and I take a 2x12" 400W rig. Our standard mixer settings were 95% there, with just a bit of minor tweaking of vocal reverb and the gain on the kick channel, and we had a nice balanced sound, clear vocals, not too loud, and a nice 'punch' from the kick. At gigs at venues where we know we have feedback issues (and everywhere we've never played before) we take an acoustic dampening backdrop, which definitely helps reduce feedback by helping control the noise bouncing around behind the mics. But not needed on Saturday, in fact the loudest thing on stage was the lead vocals monitor. And both vocalists are starting to think about using in-ears, which, while presenting their own set of challenges, will definitely help with controlling feedback. We've thought about moving to a smaller tops and subs set up, but we've a fair bit of money invested in the current set up, and it works! 

[Phil Starr]

On 26/08/2024 at 14:02, Pirellithecat said:

`

2 Gigs in 2 days and best sound ever!!  (helped by vocalist's dad's ears in the audience!!). 
Still work to do on the tendency for "brightness" on female vocals when at "Full Bore".  But otherwise ...... no feedback, great sound on stage, much better sound out front, REDUCED stress = better playing by me and much more fun!  The secret ....... IGNORE all helpful comments from band members (except can you give me more "x" in monitor), just nod sagely and do what's best!!

Organiser came up at end of second set and asked us to play for another 45mins!! so must have been good!   

I had a listen to you on your FB page, I see why you value your singer Actually she looked pretty 'on' the mic in all the clips, and could actually do with pulling off/back a bit on the places where she really belts it out. She also sings into the side of the mic slightly in all the clips, maybe 25deg off centre. You can see the mic is angled on the stand and the response of the mic changes away from the centre line. There's really not much wrong though. She is quite forward in the mix too. I'd pull her back a bit and maybe use a limiter just to take the peaks down a bit. I'd maybe look at a bit of detuned delay on her voice and more reverb just to fill it out/warm it up but she has a cracking voice. Your guitarist could usefully sing more often to fill out the vocals, the bits he does add a lot.

 

The sound in all the things you've put up is pretty good, better than most covers bands already. Instruments all nice and clear in the mix and sitting well togetehr. 'The Chain' was excellent (loved your bass tone in that) and in all the recordings are pretty clear. How did you record the sound?

 

[Chienmortbb]

2 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

The sound in all the things you've put up is pretty good, better than most covers bands already. Instruments all nice and clear in the mix and sitting well togetehr. 'The Chain' was excellent (loved your bass tone in that) and in all the recordings are pretty clear. How did you record the sound?

I agree about your sound and I was going to ask the same questions.

[Pirellithecat]

Thanks for the comments - appreciate them. 
All our Facebook vids are taken from mobile phone clips - just a bit of EQing and cutting down to size.  So a bit "limiting" in terms of quality - the timing often sounds "out" due to saturation/clipping of the phone mic - we're probably going to try to use a Zoom recorder in future ..... but the venues don't really lend themselves to having one "out front". 
I'd never noticed the "off axis" comment re the Mic .... I'll pay more attention!!  Hadn't thought of a limiter either - I was kind of gravitating toward dynamic compression.   I'll check out the "detuned delay" - I've no real idea what that is - is it "a thing".  These are probably reasons to move to a digital mixer too?   The drummer also sings, but because of the feedback issues, he's reluctant to do too much and tends to be a bit quiet which is a pity as his voice is very complementary sound to the overall vocals - quite rich/mellow.  The overall sound is getting better gig by gig - often informed by comments from this forum (and Mics!!).  But we still have a way to go!!   So do keep suggesting improvements!! 
Thinking "gates" and better EQ on monitors/FOH, plus more flexible effects/compression ..... etc etc!       

[Pirellithecat]

On 27/08/2024 at 08:24, Mickeyboro said:

What is your personal gear and instrument set-up?🙏

Typical the bassist is always obscured😂
And yes, I realise this is about the PA!

Currently🤭it's my Sandberg VM4  into ABM600 into BF Super Twin via Boss Tuner, Empress Bass Compressor, POG Micro, Big Muff , Freeze Pedal.and sometimes a EHX Chorus Pedal.  When funds allow looking to swap POG for OC5 and the Big Muff for something else.

[Phil Starr]

11 hours ago, Pirellithecat said:

I was kind of gravitating toward dynamic compression.   I'll check out the "detuned delay"

Limiting is just controlling the peaks and bringing them down. Compression is looking at more of the sound and squashing it down reducing the difference between the loud and quiet bits. They both work the same way but compression affects pretty much all of the vocal sound depending upon how you set it up. Normally with compression you turn the volume up to compensate for the compression. https://www.sonible.com/blog/compression-vs-limiting/ I ought to say that the poblem with compression in a live setting is that because of the increase in gain you can get feedback problems, not a problem if your singer is loud and doesn't need a lot of ggain but a problem if there are howlround issues. Limiters tend to decrease feedback issues

 

Detuned delay: delay is an echo effect but with often one repeat rather than reverb where the effect decays over time. If you set up a single repeat it sounds like a second voice supporting the first and if you can de-tune it you get a more realistic effect as no two voices are identical, delay without de-tuning sounds a little robotic if overdone. There's a thread on reverb and delay in the PA forum. TC and others make pedals for vocals which can create  this effect for you.

Edited August 29 by Phil Starr

[Pirellithecat]

OK - Had a look at some of the TC pedals - going to need to work out which might work ...... suggestions welcome. 
But - having read the "Vocal Mixing" thread, it seems that a digital mixer is essential to enter this particular playground ....... (and the cost of getting a couple of pedals etc. takes me closer to the ££ needed to upgrade to a digital mixer, without giving me any more Aux outs or more flexibility in terms of gates, EQ, or FX). 
But will my brain adapt ..... 🤔  Stimulating stuff!!  

[Phil Starr]

https://www.thomann.co.uk/tc_helicon_voice_tone_d1.htm

https://www.thomann.co.uk/tc_helicon_duplicator.htm

https://www.thomann.co.uk/tc_helicon_critical_mass.htm    this one is not really delay but another way of thickening out the sound

 

I'm looking at these for my own use in my duo where I do the dooby-doo's and it would sound better if there were several bv's. Think Chelsea Dagger. The advantage of pedals is that you can switch them in and out with your feet obv's and your singer can/should buy her own. On another track you might like to look at something like the Mic Mechanic https://www.thomann.co.uk/tc_helicon_mic_mechanic_2.htm . You are right though, a mixer would give more bang for the buck.

 

2 hours ago, Pirellithecat said:

But will my brain adapt ..... 🤔

Given the number of pedals you have...... you'll adapt

Edited August 29 by Phil Starr

[Woodinblack]

I have the critical mass, it is one of the pedals I use for specific songs, like the 'hey teacher' in brick in the wall, the background of I get knocked down, both as gang vocals, and doubled for you should be dancing.

[Phil Starr]

2 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

I have the critical mass, it is one of the pedals I use for specific songs, like the 'hey teacher' in brick in the wall, the background of I get knocked down, both as gang vocals, and doubled for you should be dancing.

Ooh, bring it to the bass bash

 

[Pirellithecat]

4 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

https://www.thomann.co.uk/tc_helicon_voice_tone_d1.htm

https://www.thomann.co.uk/tc_helicon_duplicator.htm

https://www.thomann.co.uk/tc_helicon_critical_mass.htm    this one is not really delay but another way of thickening out the sound

 

I'm looking at these for my own use in my duo where I do the dooby-doo's and it would sound better if there were several bv's. Think Chelsea Dagger. The advantage of pedals is that you can switch them in and out with your feet obv's and your singer can/should buy her own. On another track you might like to look at something like the Mic Mechanic https://www.thomann.co.uk/tc_helicon_mic_mechanic_2.htm . You are right though, a mixer would give more bang for the buck.

 

Given the number of pedals you have...... you'll adapt

Thanks - I'll have another look. 
I don't count the Compressor the tuner or the freeze as "Pedals" per se.   The Compressor is just on and if I had an amp with a decent one in it I'd get rid.  The tuner ?? probably ditto, and the Freeze ... well it's not really an effect - just lets me avoid having to get sustain by shaking my bass in front of the Cab ........... .   So really it's just Drive/Octave (and sometimes) Chorus.    ..........   But i might need a pre-amp to switch between basses/finger style/Plectrum ..............  Hmmm. 🤔

[Woodinblack]

1 hour ago, Phil Starr said:

Ooh, bring it to the bass bash

 

 

Will do - I also have a mic mechanic, that just does a bit of fattening.

[Chienmortbb]

10 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

 

Will do - I also have a mic mechanic, that just does a bit of fattening.

I have the Mic Mechanic 2 and I love it. It makes me sound quite good.👍 

[Phil Starr]

On 27/08/2024 at 12:39, northstreet said:

At gigs at venues where we know we have feedback issues (and everywhere we've never played before) we take an acoustic dampening backdrop, which definitely helps reduce feedback by helping control the noise bouncing around behind the mics.

That's interesting, I've not come across that before, how do you go about it?

[Woodinblack]

7 hours ago, Chienmortbb said:

I have the Mic Mechanic 2 and I love it. It makes me sound quite good.👍 

 

Yes - mine is a 2 as well, I only use it for thickening, not sure if it adds too much.

[northstreet]

17 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

That's interesting, I've not come across that before, how do you go about it?

The idea came when we were stood in front of the PA with the mics still live. The sound of the crowd talking was very clearly being picked up by the vocal mics - but they are both SM58 cardioid mics. Being cardioid, they shouldn't have been picking up the sound directly, so they must have been picking up sound from the audience echoing from the back of the stage. Now this may be old news to everyone else, but to us at the time it was a bit of a eureka moment. We figured that the main cause of our feedback issues was the sound from the PA being reflected back from the bar/wall whatever we were facing, in turn hitting the wall behind is, and then again in turn hitting the singers mic. Control that, and you might control the feedback. So we bought a curtain something like this (can't remember exactly what we sourced) fitted to a stand like this, and it really has worked. On-stage sound is much more controlled, and we rarely have any feedback issues even in some quite awkward venues.

[Phil Starr]

14 hours ago, northstreet said:

The idea came when we were stood in front of the PA with the mics still live. The sound of the crowd talking was very clearly being picked up by the vocal mics - but they are both SM58 cardioid mics. Being cardioid, they shouldn't have been picking up the sound directly, so they must have been picking up sound from the audience echoing from the back of the stage. Now this may be old news to everyone else, but to us at the time it was a bit of a eureka moment. We figured that the main cause of our feedback issues was the sound from the PA being reflected back from the bar/wall whatever we were facing, in turn hitting the wall behind is, and then again in turn hitting the singers mic. Control that, and you might control the feedback. So we bought a curtain something like this (can't remember exactly what we sourced) fitted to a stand like this, and it really has worked. On-stage sound is much more controlled, and we rarely have any feedback issues even in some quite awkward venues.

The problem is pretty well known but I've never seen a band address the problem before and to be fair not very many venues. Full marks to you for thnking of the solution and finding the right product. 6db extra headroom before feedback will make a difference.

[JPJ]

How was your PA last night JPJ? Well it was pretty bloody awesome thank you. Massive RCF line array setup with a wall of bass bins the width of the stage, centre fills sitting on the stage, Digico desks at FOH and monitors, and the best bit, a professional crew to run the bloody thing. Massive sounding rig and a couple of engineers who really knew what they were doing, Shout out to ‘Dave’ on monitors for accommodating our request to not use his rather beautiful Martin monitors and to use our in-ears instead. 

Edited September 1 by JPJ

[Chienmortbb]

10 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

The problem is pretty well known but I've never seen a band address the problem before and to be fair not very many venues. Full marks to you for thnking of the solution and finding the right product. 6db extra headroom before feedback will make a difference.

Last night we played a club where the stage had a window at the back.  Owing to noise complaints from the residents, a pair of very thick, fully lined curtains covered the back of the stage. Fo the first time ever, I did not hear a hint of feedback all night, even at set up.