cello tuning an electric bass guitar..

[jazz bob]

We've heard expatriot jazz musician and string bassist Red Mitchell in performance with a quartet of Don Chan piano, Don Over guitar, and Dave Colman, Sr. drums.

 

Red was known for cello tuning the bass, to perfect fourths in other words.

 

We've had an Ibanez short scale bass, stolen however the fall of 2016; which we'd experimented with a cello tuning on: finding we could only lower the pitch on the lowest string a half step..which trying to get lower became too slack.

 

I'm curious if anyone else has ever tried to cello tune an electric bass, either short scale or regular?

[jazz bob]

Don Ober not "Over" the guitarist with Red Mitchell.  Considered the best bebop guitarist in the Pacific Northwest.

[tauzero]

Fifths rather than fourths, surely?

 

Are you aiming at the same tuning as a cello or an octave down? For the same tuning, you'd start with a D string (0.060" or so) as the C string, G string (0.040") as itself, then what would normally be a C string on a 6 string bass (0.030") as the D string and something like a 0.020" as the A string.

 

If you have a look at https://www.daddario.com/globalassets/pdfs/accessories/tension_chart_13934.pdf you'll see what would be needed to get similar tensions across the four strings. 

[Hellzero]

Many bassists of Magma, the French fusion band, have been using the cello tuning.

 

Jannick TOP (from 1973 to 1974 and in 1976) started using this tuning in the 70's, because he was a classical cello player and because of the power it was delivering (through a full tube SVT 300 with the mandatory 8x10 cab...).

 

He is using this gauges:

C = 0.135, G = 0.095, D = 0.065 and A = 0.045.

 

Philippe BUSSONNET (from 1996 to 2019) is using some slightly lighter gauges:

C = 0.130, G = 0.090, D = 0.060 and A = 0.040.

 

Worth listening to Magma and calling @Dad3353... 😉

Edited July 10 by Hellzero

[Dad3353]

 

[Rosie C]

I tried it for a while. I swapped the E string for a fatter one for the C, the A and G I just tuned up and down.  I couldn't play scales without a lot of hand movement so I changed back though I expect I'd have got better with practice. 

 

[Woodwind]

I kept a bass tuned in fifths when I was writing for cello in my ensemble.

I used 125 for the C, 85 for the G, 60 for the D and 30 for the A.

 

On my bass this came very, very close to how my preferred 40-100 strings felt and responded.

 

The low c sounded excellent!

 

Of course it was an octave lower than cello, but the notation was the same.

 

It was quite an interesting exercise to play my own bass lines on the 5ths tuned instrument, breaking out of usual patterns and see where this led with writing new parts.

Edited July 10 by Woodwind

[Downunderwonder]

There's a Euro joker on Talkbass who does it lefty on DB. Can't remember his handle. He plays in a lot of small bar folk combos.

[jazz bob]

Sorry, I had meant tuned in fifths..is that correct?  And an octave lower than cello.

 

Oddly, if off-topic, an electric bass guitar is roughly in the same range as a trombone.  Trombone doesn't seem much lower than cello?

 

We heard cellist David Darling with the Paul Winter Consort, playing their homage to Jimi Hendrix on one tune; whose expanded range compared to guitar was exciting.

[Munurmunuh]

16 hours ago, jazz bob said:

Oddly, if off-topic, an electric bass guitar is roughly in the same range as a trombone.  Trombone doesn't seem much lower than cello?

 

Plucking an open E or A string on a bass is one thing, playing the pedal notes on a trombone is another.

[Cat Burrito]

I appreciate it's probably not as clever as Jazz, but I have an 80s style gothic duo that do a lot of acoustic shows. We use mandocellos, with my mandocello played like a bass. So I have the low C, rather than an E. It gets a lot of interest. 

[zbd1960]

Double bass sounding pitch is an octave lower than written so the low E is a 6th below the cello's C string. Cellos are tuned in 5ths. In 1st position on say the C string, 1st finger would be D, 3rd E, 4th F. Given the increased spacing for the lower pitch of the bass, you're going to end up with a lot more shifting to play notes  

[Munurmunuh]

Please can we can this tuning contrabass viola tuning, thank you 

[Downunderwonder]

Bass and cello for the Can Can are mostly doubled an octave apart, and quite simple so an ideal intro to 5ths on a bass. Should just be enough to convince a bass 5ths wannabe to give it away.

Edited July 20 by Downunderwonder

[JoeEvans]

Might work better with a short scale bass, from point of view of viable fingerings for common scales.

Edited July 20 by JoeEvans

[Hellzero]

You have to rethink your fingering(s) for sure, but even though, you'll discover some new ideas, ... by mistake.

 

Just give it a try, it's worth it.

[zbd1960]

On 20/07/2024 at 08:51, Munurmunuh said:

Please can we can this tuning contrabass viola tuning, thank you 

Well, if we go back to the origins of the double bass, which is the violone member of the viol family (aka viola da gamba), it came in two forms: the G violone which was an octave below the tenor viol (GCFADG) and the D violone which is an octave below the bass viol (DGCEAD). The tenor viol's low G is one on the bottom line of the bass clef. The bass viol's low D is the one below the bass clef. The two violones are an octave below that.

 

As to how it went from 6 to four strings, lost its frets, and changed its tuning... that's a complex story...

 

The violone is also why most DBs have sloping shoulders, not square ones like a member of the violin family. A DB with 'square' shoulders' is a bass violin...

 

[Hellzero]

In fact, it went from 6 to 3 strings to end up with 4. 😉

[jazz bob]

Hello folks,

 

Our nice little short scale bass got wings during 2016, now seeking a replacement.  That was an Ibanez GS10051172, a black short-scale solid body built like an SG shaped like a Les Paul for $215 plus tax: unfortunately, a bass which seems no longer produced though absolutely appealing and unique in style and appearance, which we want to exactly replace if possible..the Hofner Contemporary Series Shorty Bass could be an alternative though just beginning to explore possibilities..the Ibanez was our first bass, as primarily a saxophonist exploring multi-instrumentalism now.

 

I'm surprised some folk responding here tuning in fifths..so-called "cello" tuning, begin on such low notes?  We found even tuned to a "D" the lowest string was too slack.."E" would be the bottom string using normal tuning, no?

 

I did get the instrument tuned to fifths, which must've had a "D#" for the bottom note?  Maybe actually "D" and lower notes than that were too slack?  Even playing guitar for me is very basic..working up simple phrases or melodies in as many different keys that will fit, maybe some scales & arppegios..or "harmelodics" even..Marion Brown, Sonny Simmons & Ornette Coleman reach us sometimes, all alto saxophonists known as more exploratory players.

 

[Munurmunuh]

On 21/07/2024 at 17:22, zbd1960 said:

Well, if we go back to the origins of the double bass, which is the violone member of the viol family (aka viola da gamba), it came in two forms: the G violone which was an octave below the tenor viol (GCFADG) and the D violone which is an octave below the bass viol (DGCEAD). The tenor viol's low G is one on the bottom line of the bass clef. The bass viol's low D is the one below the bass clef. The two violones are an octave below that.

 

As to how it went from 6 to four strings, lost its frets, and changed its tuning... that's a complex story...

 

The violone is also why most DBs have sloping shoulders, not square ones like a member of the violin family. A DB with 'square' shoulders' is a bass violin...

 

I'm sorry that I put you to such effort based on a misunderstanding. By contrabass I wasn't making any reference to the instrument the double bass, but was merely the adjective meaning two octaves lower, the equivalent of a 32' stop on an organ.

 

The modern viola is, like the cello, tuned CGDA, but an octave higher. If an octave lower than a cello could be called bass cello tuning, then it could, logically if absurdly, also be called a contrabass viola tuning. (Cf a contrabassoon being an octave lower than a bassoon and two octaves lower than an oon.)

 

The tiny hint of humour in my post is now thoroughly extinguished by this verbiage, but never mind....

[Woodwind]

16 hours ago, jazz bob said:

Hello folks,

 

Our nice little short scale bass got wings during 2016, now seeking a replacement.  That was an Ibanez GS10051172, a black short-scale solid body built like an SG shaped like a Les Paul for $215 plus tax: unfortunately, a bass which seems no longer produced though absolutely appealing and unique in style and appearance, which we want to exactly replace if possible..the Hofner Contemporary Series Shorty Bass could be an alternative though just beginning to explore possibilities..the Ibanez was our first bass, as primarily a saxophonist exploring multi-instrumentalism now.

 

I'm surprised some folk responding here tuning in fifths..so-called "cello" tuning, begin on such low notes?  We found even tuned to a "D" the lowest string was too slack.."E" would be the bottom string using normal tuning, no?

 

I did get the instrument tuned to fifths, which must've had a "D#" for the bottom note?  Maybe actually "D" and lower notes than that were too slack?  Even playing guitar for me is very basic..working up simple phrases or melodies in as many different keys that will fit, maybe some scales & arppegios..or "harmelodics" even..Marion Brown, Sonny Simmons & Ornette Coleman reach us sometimes, all alto saxophonists known as more exploratory players.

 

 

You can't use the regular 4ths tuning strings for 5th tuning.

 

Well you can, but as you found the result was too low tension.

If you want to use this bass for fifths tuning you will need heavier gauge strings for what were the E and A strings and arguably something lighter for what was the G string.

[Munurmunuh]

8 hours ago, Munurmunuh said:

(Cf a contrabassoon being an octave lower than a bassoon and two octaves lower than an oon.)

 

Rather more truthfully:

 

"The contrabass flute is one of the rarer members of the flute family..... Its range is similar to the regular concert flute, except it is pitched two octaves lower; the lowest performable note is two octaves below middle C (the lowest C on the cello)"

 

PS.... a fairly uninspiring 10 minutes on YouTube tells me that the Contrabass Clarinet is much better than a Contrabass Flute, and that the Subcontrabass Flute (range roughly the same as a 5-string bass) is an absurdity

Edited July 24 by Munurmunuh

[Russ]

Nikko Whitworth, the former bass player from Unleash The Archers, uses fifths tuning.

He's got a great, Matt Garrison-style thumb-and-fingers picking technique too. 

 

 

[tauzero]

5 hours ago, Munurmunuh said:

PS.... a fairly uninspiring 10 minutes on YouTube tells me that the Contrabass Clarinet is much better than a Contrabass Flute, and that the Subcontrabass Flute (range roughly the same as a 5-string bass) is an absurdity

 

And there's a hyperbass flute too, which looks more like a climbing frame.

[Woodwind]

While we're on this tangent, I will say that contrabassoon is my primary instrument.

 

Not the loudest of acoustic bass instruments, but quite a spectacular tone.

 

Https://www.instagram.com/thomasstonemusic