Live playing vs studio

[UnderFret]

I'm trying to organise my thoughts on a situation and would appreciate others' input.

 

I've been playing in the band for a singer/writer for the past 9 years on a different instrument that only crops up in a handful of their songs. Going back 4 years or thereabouts I started learning to play the bass. I did this because the singer/writer had written some songs that would benefit from bass guitar at live gigs and they didn't have anyone playing for them. I got a few tips from a seasoned bass player and then just learned a song at a time and gradually started playing bass on more songs. I am not a brilliant bass player but I have put in some effort and think I'm playing OK for their gigs. Recently I was asked to record a couple of bass lines for the next album. I expressed my doubts at the time as playing for recording feels like it needs a more experienced player than me to make sure it's spot on. I suggested they get in a session bassist but the singer was clear they wanted me to do it. I put quite a bit of time into preparing for the session, which went ok (which was a relief as I was worried that the pressure of being in the studio might render me useless!) and although there were no perfect takes and it took me a while to warm into it, across the last three takes me/singer/engineer were happy we'd covered everything in this particular song albeit it would require a bit of cutting/pasting which I know isn't ideal.

 

Two months down the line, the singer has told me that they have had a session player record a different bass line for this song which they say sounds really cool and was down in one take so involves less work so they are going to use that instead. 

 

Objectively, I want the singer to have the best bass line possible on the song but subjectively I feel like an utter twit and my sense of self-respect as a musician feels irreparably wounded. I'm so embarrassed about it that I can't talk to friends about it so I'm airing it here instead. Confidence isn't my strong point anyway so the idea of continuing to play seems laughable. 

 

My gut feeling at this point is to stop playing with the band because I can't see how I can come back from this situation. Aside from this there's quite a lot of twattery that goes on with band politics (not involving me generally but everyone tries to bend my ear about it) and severe lack of rehearsals (2–3 per YEAR), another band member changing the setlist constantly during gigs etc. There are plenty of reasons to be sad to leave the band as well though.

 

If I'm trying to be pragmatic, I could continue with live gigs, make more effort to improve my bass playing and steer well clear of the studio. I'm not feeling very pragmatic though! 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lozz196]

 I have to say that put me in a studio up against a seasoned session player, even on material I`m well used to they will probably play it better so don`t beat yourself up too badly on this aspect, that`s (in all likelihood) their day job, they should be good at it, no shame there. 

 

The main thing is that when your band are playing gigs they`re happy for you to be playing with them. In your position I would state my need for more rehearsals, and state why - simply that your bass playing (so the overall sound of the band) will improve. 

[police squad]

To be honest and in my experience, they shouldnt be copying and pasting your bits together (oo-er). They should have been able to drop you in, like we did in the old days.

I haven't been in a studio for nearly 20 years now and that was with the legend that was Chris Tsangarides, where he tidied up a slightly too behind the beat note that I played.

 

As Lozz says, don't beat yourself up about it, it went on all the time. Just try and enjoy playing and stay out of the politics

[tauzero]

Have you had a listen to the bassline that was put down by the session player? If you can overcome your understandable deflation, see if you can learn from it. Don't give up, try and treat it as motivation to improve. Unless you're Victor Wooten or Sid Vicious, there will always be someone better or worse than you.

[mike257]

I know plenty of professional session players with long standing roles in an artist's live band who don't end up anywhere near the studio sessions for the artists they play for. It's often the way it plays out and I wouldn't take it as a personal thing. When you're hired help, you just do what you can to facilitate the artists vision as best you can. You're obviously up to the task of playing for them or you wouldn't be on the live shows at all.

[Rodders]

I find playing in the studio harder as being a perfectionist (at least when it comes to music) I want to get it right first time and it tends to deteriorate when I don't, I would likely feel the same in your position as they have had you play on the track and have told you they are happy and then brought someone else in, taking into account the other issues within the band you have given, it doesn't sound like a good environment for you especially going forward. But that's only my opinion. 

[WinterMute]

I know it can feel like a personal slight, but plenty of bassist and drummers have had to deal with having their parts programmed for recordings, keyboards are regularly recorded and quantised etc. Vocalists are getting auto-tuned and Melodyned all over the shop, it's just how it works.

 

I don't see much difference in being a side player in a songwriter fronted band, to being a session player only on the record, horses for courses.

 

If you enjoy the live work, carry on with it, indeed ask them if they want you to learn the new baseline for the live show.

[diskwave]

Recording is a very precise animal and not many can do it well. Some of the most famous bands in history arent all playing on their best recorded tunes. Theres no easy answer. I found out the hard way many years ago that Im simply not quick enough and not precise enough...I can read a chart but Ive always had a bad habit of going off piste so to speak much to the annoyance of everyone else.

[UnderFret]

Thanks to everyone here for responding. I feel much better about it having read these replies. 

 

I wish I'd trusted my initial gut instinct not to try to record in the first place. There are other people playing on this album who will require several takes so I'd comforted myself with that but I know it's not a great way to proceed in the studio (having been on the producing side of things...)

 

I've already said I would like to hear the better bass line in case I should adopt it for gigs.

 

I will scrape my pride off the floor and get on with things but with a thickened resolve to try to ignore the politics and encourage better approach to rehearsals. 

[BigRedX]

I think unless you are the singer, songwriter or the producer, you are always going to have to live with the fact that your playing may not end up on the final recorded version of the song. It has generally got nothing to do with your instrumental abilities, it's just that what you played ends up not fitting with the ultimate artistic vision. Remember also that songs and their arrangements can develop considerably for what has been performed live once they come under the studio "microscope". 

 

I play in two bands. One where I am essentially just the bass player for gigs, and while I will make suggestions about what I'm going to play,  most of the time I'm replicating what has already been recorded in the studio, and I'm happy the accept that, because it's a great band with great songs. For the other band I am responsible for the musical side of about half of our songs, so what I come up with is an integral part of the composition and the arrangement. However if we were to employ a producer with the express purpose of making the band more palatable to a wider audience, I would have no hesitation in having my contributions replaced by something that is more suitable for the end product.

[Dankology]

If I had the money, I'm pretty sure there'd be times I'd be tempted to get a session player in to play lines I'd actually written myself.

 

I'll just echo what has been said above and add that (1) I don't think you should spend time regretting the time you put in in the studio as it is experience that will inevitably come in useful in the future and (2) everything that you've written suggests that you are a fine and valuable musician - and we all know that carries a lot more weight than being able to pull out one slick bassline in the studio.

[Boodang]

Recently I went away for 5 weeks, so I said to my covers band that of course I had no issue with them getting in a dep for any gigs. 
Turns out they hired a pro, who it turns out is much better than me technically and listening back to the recordings you can hear how good and precise he is. Chatting it over with the band (and trying to alleviate some of my insecurities) they said they were glad I was back as the vibe wasn’t the same. 
There’s always someone better than you so if a band wants you then you’re bringing something tangible to the party they find agreeable. 

[Rosie C]

3 hours ago, Dankology said:

If I had the money, I'm pretty sure there'd be times I'd be tempted to get a session player in to play lines I'd actually written myself.

 

 

I'm doing this right now - hiring my ex-bass teacher to record bass lines I've written that I'm not up to playing. 

[Mykesbass]

Ever heard of The Wrecking Crew? So many 1960s hits were not recorded by the guys in the band, including a lot of the Beach Boys material. If you haven't then there's quite a good documentary to take a look at. Should make you feel way better!

[RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE]

Nothing to be ashamed of . You play more then one instrument , so no need to be despondent at all . 

When doing the band thing , I preferred playing live and didn't mind rehearsals . The rehearsals were better when done regularly , but 4 hrs was too much . 2 was better , but you take what is given by the owners.

 

I only played in covers bands , and recorded demos for pubs / venues  3 times . Always nervous ,and not experienced at doing it.

We'd book 4-6 hrs ( apart from some dodgy guitarist who made us go into a cheaper deal and ruin everything).

one cd was atrocious , one was much better and one I threw into the bin in disgust.

 

I nearly forgot the best time , was when the bandleader recorded our sessions on GarageBand himself . That was really good .

Calm and casual, and stress free . 

 

It seems like you'll move onto other things eventually anyhow , doing what suits you with your preferred instruments . 
When the fun stops  stop , and find what's right for you .
 

[uk_lefty]

You've been playing bass for four years only, you did this to help out this band and they have you playing live. That should be a huge confidence boost!! They asked you to do the studio recording first. Ok, it didn't go perfectly. But let's all be honest, how many of us play in live bands but the second someone hits record we fluff everything??!! 

 

I don't think you need to beat yourself up on this at all. Playing live and recording can be seen as two entirely different skills, where one relies on calm precision and the other relies on the energy you can bring and bring able to react to what's going on around you. 

 

You sound like a good band member to me: doing what's right for the band, taking up a new challenge (bass) to help the band, and staying away from the politics. 

[Cat Burrito]

I think a mistake a lot of musicians make is to view music as a competition, who is best. When I was a younger player I would have been upset at any rejection but now I am much more pragmatic. I know I do me "me" better than any other player. if anyone wants that, great, but if they don't, get the player you want. It's also about what is right for the session. Duff McKagan isn't going to be first call for a Miles Davis album and you probably wouldn't want Jaco playing with The Pixies. 

 

Having co-produced a few releases, there's no shame on cutting and pasting a line. We do it for speed, knowing the player *could* do it on a different day and also knowing that EMI aren't bank rolling the session. 

 

A different way of looking at the original post is that they went with your suggestion of the session guy, having tried you first as a mark of respect. 

 

Oh and as a PS, I was fired from my Sixth Form band in the 80s. Fast forward to 2020 and of course we're all mates now. I've been in a duo with the most musical one for the last few years and the others have all guested with me, at my request - one flying over from Atlanta, GA to do so. It's a marathon, not a sprint! 

[Steve Browning]

1 hour ago, Cat Burrito said:

 I know I do me "me" better than any other player. if anyone wants that, great, but if they don't, get the player you want. It's also about what is right for the session. Duff McKagan isn't going to be first call for a Miles Davis album and you probably wouldn't want Jaco playing with The Pixies. 

 

I absoluterly agree with this (and have said the same thing many times).

 

Another factor is the studio itself. My last recording was at Rimshot in Kent, and the whole vibe of the place, and the attitude of the owner/producer just inspired all of us to just relax and play without thinking of the red light being on. Not really encountered such a vibe before. It made all the difference.

[JoeEvans]

Playing for recording is difficult and very different to live. I think it's a big help to set yourself up with a basic home recording system (eg cheap audio interface, Garage Band) and make a habit of recording yourself playing over simple drum tracks or whatever. It will really improve your playing.

[Rosie C]

9 minutes ago, JoeEvans said:

Playing for recording is difficult and very different to live. I think it's a big help to set yourself up with a basic home recording system (eg cheap audio interface, Garage Band) and make a habit of recording yourself playing over simple drum tracks or whatever. It will really improve your playing.

 

I think so. We had our first professional studio session last week. Enthused, I'm currently watching my incoming studio mic parcel on the courier's website.

Going to spend the next few months making recordings & videos rather than gigging.

[Lozz196]

I suppose I’m fortunate enough to have recorded in so many studios with different engineers that my preferred methods are whatever they want to get the best results. I’m yet to work at a studio and come away thinking I hope I never record in that manner again.
 

But this is the experience of nearly 40 years, I do remember absolutely bricking it the first time, it was such a big deal to me. So inevitably I messed one song up which fortunately I managed to bluff it and kept in key (going back to late 80s, no copy & paste back then).

[TimR]

On 15/07/2024 at 16:35, UnderFret said:

There are other people playing on this album who will require several takes so I'd comforted myself with that but I know it's not a great way to proceed in the studio

 

That's your problem right there.

 

The band needs to be rehearsed and tight before you go anywhere near the studio or everyone is wasting time and money.

 

Multiple takes and 'dropping in' shouldn't be necessary.

 

We recently recorded 3 songs - 3 takes each song and selected the best take of each one. I was done in 2 hours and went home (dropping yeh drummer off on the way), leaving the singer to do the final vocals, and guitarist to double track his guitar and do the backing vocals.

 

Realistically, if they're doing an album, they should be doing one or two tracks a day, then come back a few weeks later and do the next couple and so on. 

 

It doesn't sound like you were the problem here. 

 

 

Edited July 17 by TimR

[tinyd]

I can see how it might knock your confidence, and I'm sure that the session player is objectively "better" than you, but that doesn't mean that your initial playing wasn't good enough - it could just as easily mean that the singer heard something else in their head afterwards and got someone in to quickly record it. You've been playing live, you're an experienced musician on other instruments, and it doesn't take *that* much experience to be able to play decent bass for most genres of music anyway, so I wouldn't doubt yourself too much.