Harsh Realities The Music Business

[Bluewine]

This mostly pertains to the brave guys trying to make a living from playing.

 

It's hard for me to challenge this guy.

 

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/oPTYQMqZUkYxf5GZ/?mibextid=xfxF2i

 

Daryl

[Dad3353]

A pity that many of us don't 'do' facebook. Never mind. 

[Burns-bass]

You don’t need to have a user account to watch the video. (I don’t have one and I could see it).

 

Isn’t this the same video as last time? 
 

[Dad3353]

49 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

You don’t need to have a user account to watch the video. (I don’t have one and I could see it)...

 

This may be true, but I don't want my PC to get cluttered up with cookies and other web-memory stuff from any of these types of sites. I receive quite enough spam as it is; I'm sure that many sites, once you've been there at all, keep tabs on whatever data there is to collect. To me, and without declaring myself to be paranoid, the simplest thing is to never have any truck with any of 'em, however tempting the link. My loss, certainly, but my gain, too, so ... 

[Burns-bass]

38 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

 

This may be true, but I don't want my PC to get cluttered up with cookies and other web-memory stuff from any of these types of sites. I receive quite enough spam as it is; I'm sure that many sites, once you've been there at all, keep tabs on whatever data there is to collect. To me, and without declaring myself to be paranoid, the simplest thing is to never have any truck with any of 'em, however tempting the link. My loss, certainly, but my gain, too, so ... 

 

I sort of get it, but there are ways around this stuff. The video was a guy moaning about how people can’t make money from music anymore as the opportunities aren’t there. That’s basically it.

[Dad3353]

1 hour ago, Burns-bass said:

I sort of get it, but there are ways around this stuff. The video was a guy moaning about how people can’t make money from music anymore as the opportunities aren’t there. That’s basically it.

 

Thanks. It's probably tough making a living from occupations these days. Blacksmiths are more rare than in the recent past, pool typists are a forgotten race, even street-corner hawkers of evening newspapers are finding times hard. No, I've not seen the video; I imagine a similar case could be made for so many walks of life. On a brighter note, there has been a boom in folk producing 'apps', and there is money to be made, I'm told, in creating publicly-available video content, complaining about how there are no more opportunities in [insert subject of your choice]. 

[MacDaddy]

50 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

and there is money to be made, I'm told

 

 

 

" I have heard there's good money to be made down the docks. Doing favours for sailors".

[Burns-bass]

49 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

 

Thanks. It's probably tough making a living from occupations these days. Blacksmiths are more rare than in the recent past, pool typists are a forgotten race, even street-corner hawkers of evening newspapers are finding times hard. No, I've not seen the video; I imagine a similar case could be made for so many walks of life. On a brighter note, there has been a boom in folk producing 'apps', and there is money to be made, I'm told, in creating publicly-available video content, complaining about how there are no more opportunities in [insert subject of your choice]. 

Oh I quite agree. There was a Radio 4 show about why ignorance is key to innovation. People who approach problems from a unique angle (because they’re savants, non neurotypical, incredibly intelligent or from another culture, for example) can often find new opportunities that others have ignored or simply never considered.

 

Musicians have incredible skills that can be applied in new areas. I used to work with a woman who studied music and played professionally. She moved into music therapy and, from there, moved into the NHS and is now head of a national charity. 
 

Power of music!

[Bluewine]

4 hours ago, Burns-bass said:

You don’t need to have a user account to watch the video. (I don’t have one and I could see it).

 

Isn’t this the same video as last time? 
 

 

OMG! I'm getting old and forgetful.  Sorry for the duplication guys.

 

Daryl

[Bluewine]

3 hours ago, Burns-bass said:

 

I sort of get it, but there are ways around this stuff. The video was a guy moaning about how people can’t make money from music anymore as the opportunities aren’t there. That’s basically it.

 

I sort of get it too. Out of all the musicians I know only 2 were able to make a living from performing in bands. 

 

Daryl

Edited July 20 by Bluewine

[Burns-bass]

14 minutes ago, Bluewine said:

 

I sort of get it too. Out of all the musicians I know only 2 were able to make a living from performing in bands. 

 

Daryl

Yeah, I get it. I only know a few full time musicians and most of them are teachers in the week and then play in functions bands on the weekends.

And no worries for posting twice, doesn’t matter!

[Dan Dare]

As an oldie, I don't think it's a case of people not being able to make a living from music "anymore". It never was an option for most. When I started playing as more than just a hobby (slightly north of 50 years ago), the dream was to "turn professional". For the majority, including me, it remained just that. A dream.

 

Occupations that everyone wants to pursue tend not to pay well for the majority. It's a case of supply and demand. If everyone wants to be a musician, actor and similar, the pay offered tends to be low because someone somewhere will bite.

 

For much of my life, music has been a side-line, occasionally a moderately lucrative one. I've enjoyed brief periods during which music was my only source of income, but they were brief. It was always necessary to return to a day job to make ends meet, unless you wanted to live on baked beans, never own your own home, run a car that was on the verge of falling apart and not be able to have a family.

 

Looking back now I'm in my dotage, I'm glad about that. When I hit 40, I realised that I had 25 years to pay off the mortgage and build some kind of provision for my old age, which I managed to do. I quit part-time casual working and got a "proper" job. The funny thing was that, once I had made the decision to keep music strictly as a side-line, I got offered a lot more work. Some I accepted if I could fit it around the job. The rest I politely declined, explaining that the job wouldn't permit (obviously sensible to keep people sweet in case they offered more in the future). It was a luxury being able to turn down offers to play in toilets to a room full of animals who hated me.

 

All in all, I've done OK and can afford to enjoy my twilight years if I'm sensible. With the benefit of hindsight, I wouldn't have had it any other way.

Edited July 20 by Dan Dare

[Burns-bass]

52 minutes ago, Dan Dare said:

As an oldie, I don't think it's a case of people not being able to make a living from music "anymore". It never was an option for most. When I started playing as more than just a hobby (slightly north of 50 years ago), the dream was to "turn professional". For the majority, including me, it remained just that. A dream.

 

Occupations that everyone wants to pursue tend not to pay well for the majority. It's a case of supply and demand. If everyone wants to be a musician, actor and similar, the pay offered tends to be low because someone somewhere will bite.

 

For much of my life, music has been a side-line, occasionally a moderately lucrative one. I've enjoyed brief periods during which music was my only source of income, but they were brief. It was always necessary to return to a day job to make ends meet, unless you wanted to live on baked beans, never own your own home, run a car that was on the verge of falling apart and not be able to have a family.

 

Looking back now I'm in my dotage, I'm glad about that. When I hit 40, I realised that I had 25 years to pay off the mortgage and build some kind of provision for my old age, which I managed to do. I quit part-time casual working and got a "proper" job. The funny thing was that, once I had made the decision to keep music strictly as a side-line, I got offered a lot more work. Some I accepted if I could fit it around the job. The rest I politely declined, explaining that the job wouldn't permit (obviously sensible to keep people sweet in case they offered more in the future). It was a luxury being able to turn down offers to play in toilets to a room full of animals who hated me.

 

All in all, I've done OK and can afford to enjoy my twilight years if I'm sensible. With the benefit of hindsight, I wouldn't have had it any other way.

Love this. It makes perfect sense and it’s great to hear you’re happy with what you’ve done and are doing.

[Lozz196]

I get what @Dan Dare means, in my early 20s still thinking/dreaming of becoming a professional musician I met a fair few and saw how they lived. Not my cuppa I have to say.

[meterman]

22 hours ago, Lozz196 said:

I get what @Dan Dare means, in my early 20s still thinking/dreaming of becoming a professional musician I met a fair few and saw how they lived. Not my cuppa I have to say.

It's not for everyone, that's for sure.

 

I was 25 when I moved from being in a signed (albeit rubbish) band, to doing session work. But I used to do a couple of night shifts at a bakery as well, just in case there were quiet weeks. 
 

Sometimes I'd turn up to a studio session or a dep gig or something, and I'd get the "ooh, look out - here's little bakery boy" chants or get called a master baker or whatever. Wahey! It was usually done in jest so I could have laugh along with the banter, no big deal.

 

But I did start to notice that other musicians I was playing alongside were living in rented rooms or bedsits and living off cup-a-soups, or still with their parents, whereas I had a mortgage on a flat in central London because I had a side hustle and they weren't prepared to do that. I was usually totally knackered - imagine finishing a drumming gig and then heading straight off to do a night shift at a bakery, already sweaty and fit for sleep. But without the bakery side hustle for a couple of years I wouldn't have been able to carry on, I was rarely 'first call' as a player, my skills weren't up to it. I wasn't A-list, more like S-list 😂

Edited July 21 by meterman

[Bluewine]

10 minutes ago, meterman said:

It's not for everyone, that's for sure.

 

I was 25 when I moved from being in a signed (albeit rubbish) band, to doing session work. But I used to do a couple of night shifts at a bakery as well, just in case there were quiet weeks. 
 

Sometimes I'd turn up to a studio session or a dep gig or something, and I'd get the "ooh, look out - here's little bakery boy" chants or get called a master baker or whatever. Wahey! It was usually done in jest so I could have laugh along with the banter, no big deal.

 

But I did start to notice that other musicians I was playing alongside were living in rented rooms or bedsits and living off cup-a-soups, or still with their parents, whereas I had a mortgage on a flat in central London because I had a side hustle and they weren't prepared to do that. I was usually totally knackered - imagine finishing a drumming gig and then heading straight off to do a night shift at a bakery, already sweaty and fit for sleep. But without the bakery side hustle for a couple of years I wouldn't have been able to carry on, I was rarely 'first call' as a player, my skills weren't up to it. I wasn't A-list, more like S-list 😂

 

Agreed, I like where your heads at.

 

My story is a little different.  Started playing and gigging as a young teen. However, I went to college and got my degree in business administration right after high school. I played in jazz and stage band for four years.

 

I worked a traditional job as a worker's compensation examiner for 35 years. My real gigging and making money experience didn't start until I was 60 years old with a pension.  That was 10 years ago.

 

Daryl

[Bluewine]

22 hours ago, Lozz196 said:

I get what @Dan Dare means, in my early 20s still thinking/dreaming of becoming a professional musician I met a fair few and saw how they lived. Not my cuppa I have to say.

 

 

I know a few guys that tried to make a living from gigs. They ended up with 35 years of making a few bucks here and there. These guys are now in their 60s and 70s and financially screwed. And by that time it's too late.

 

Daryl

[Rosie C]

On 20/07/2024 at 21:09, Dan Dare said:

As an oldie, I don't think it's a case of people not being able to make a living from music "anymore". It never was an option for most.

 

I think this is true. My grandfather played sax in a dance band in the 1930s - 1950s. 4 hour gigs, three nights a week - which sounds like he had made it. But he had a full time job in a factory and gave piano and sax lessons too. 

[meterman]

41 minutes ago, Bluewine said:

 

Agreed, I like where your heads at.

 

My story is a little different.  Started playing and gigging as a young teen. However, I went to college and got my degree in business administration right after high school. I played in jazz and stage band for four years.

 

I worked a traditional job as a worker's compensation examiner for 35 years. My real gigging and making money experience didn't start until I was 60 years old with a pension.  That was 10 years ago.

 

Daryl

Thank you Daryl. Yeah, I was gigging and recording whilst I was still at school. 15 years old and being allowed in bars, underage - fantastic! 
 

However, while I was still 15 I involuntarily spent time in a psychiatric facility on and off for the next two years, so I didn't get to do any school or exams or anything. I really wanted to become a graphic designer and work in advertising or something, but I'd missed too much education to even get into art school. So I worked in a warehouse for a year, then rejoined a few old school mates, started up a band, and that was it.

 

I have no real transferable skills outside music so I just focused as best as I could on earning enough from music to cover the mortgage. Sometimes it was pretty $hitty, but then other times it could be great. Never earned a rock star fortune with flash cars, or even a decent career wage with fancy holidays and a good pension, but I did the best I could with the meagre skills I've got, and I've done okay. 
 

I reckon it's being prepared to take risks that gets the work coming in. I have no doubt that most folks here on BC could run rings around me as a bassist. But then there's probably lots of folks that wouldn't give up their day job to be kinda thrifty and get by, just from playing music. Personally I'd have chosen a career every time instead of music but my limited education and bipolar issues ruled a career out for me. I envy day job folks!

[Bluewine]

7 hours ago, meterman said:

 

 

I reckon it's being prepared to take risks that gets the work coming in. I have no doubt that most folks here on BC could run rings around me as a bassist. But then there's probably lots of folks that wouldn't give up their day job to be kinda thrifty and get by, just from playing music. Personally I'd have chosen a career every time instead of music but my limited education and bipolar issues ruled a career out for me. I envy day job folks!

 

Thanks for sharing your story Meterman.

 

I would bet  most of us here on BC have faced more than one bump in the road.

 

Daryl

[diskwave]

On 20/07/2024 at 21:09, Dan Dare said:

As an oldie, I don't think it's a case of people not being able to make a living from music "anymore". It never was an option for most

Even 40 odd years ago unless you were prepared to be out every nite all nite, making money from this game has never been easy at all. The only peeps who ever made money from music were "pop stars" successful producers and the impressario types who made it all happen.  

[BigRedX]

16 minutes ago, diskwave said:

Even 40 odd years ago unless you were prepared to be out every nite all nite, making money from this game has never been easy at all. The only peeps who ever made money from music were "pop stars" successful producers and the impressario types who made it all happen.  

 

Or songwriters. If you look at any list of the best earning musicians from the last 70-80 years you'll find that nearly all of them were responsible for writing their most popular songs.

[mike257]

Across the majority of the music industry, you make better money as touring crew than you do as a member of the band. Obviously a successful band stands to do much better in the long run when all the long term income streams like publishing etc are taken in to account, but a lot of artists never hit the point where it's that big an earner. You'd be surprised at the size of venues a band can be touring and still not be earning enough to do without having an additional source of income. 

[Doctor J]

Interesting perspective from the bassist of the Metal band Exodus who, for those who don't know of them, have been going since the mid-80's, have a record deal, regularly do world tours, regularly feature on big festival lineups, etc, a not-unsuccessful outfit
 

https://blabbermouth.net/news/exodus-bassist-jack-gibson-im-a-t-shirt-salesman-im-not-a-musician

[Burns-bass]

14 hours ago, mike257 said:

Across the majority of the music industry, you make better money as touring crew than you do as a member of the band. Obviously a successful band stands to do much better in the long run when all the long term income streams like publishing etc are taken in to account, but a lot of artists never hit the point where it's that big an earner. You'd be surprised at the size of venues a band can be touring and still not be earning enough to do without having an additional source of income. 

The guys from indie rock band Embrace used to sell double glazing between albums and tours apparently.

 

My brother used to work with Roni Size’s bass player (he was a film editor as well - what a career!)

 

Nothing but respect for people who take this path.