1972 Jazz Bass - Verification of a few things

[Reggaebass]

15 hours ago, TheStarsmith said:

Thanks all. I'm a bit gutted as my heart set on it, however there's a few too many question marks over it. 

 

I'll forward the thread on to the guys at BD tomorrow. I wanted a black Jazz with the 4 bolt neck. With me thinking is was a 72 I thought the earlier the better with build quality - I'd heard horror stories with the 3 bolt neck and build quality issues mid 70's. This looks like it's encroaching into '74 territory and with the re-finish and wrong pick guard, you're correct it's probably too expensive for what it is. They'd also agreed to take my Spector NS-2 in part-ex which sweetened the deal for me, but with it being immaculate and a woodstock era bass, I think, i'd be foolish to do that... even if I can't get on with the Spector.

 

Thanks for your advice.

 

Lee

 

 

 

It’s always good to ask here Lee, I do it myself especially with vintage basses, quite often someone spots something that I’ve missed, 

the right ones do come along but sometimes it’s a waiting game , good luck 

[Geek99]

52 minutes ago, TheStarsmith said:

Hi all, quick update.

 

I was still interested in the bass and tried to renegotiate the price down using this thread as a basis for it. Unfortunately it seems it wasn't something they were prepared to do and they will be sending my deposit back. I've since found a numbers matching '73 Bass in original case for £1000 less so "every cloud."

 

Thanks for everyone's advice.

 

I'll be putting my NS-2 up for sale soon. 

 

Thanks

Lee

 

I think that one again, basschat has proved itself to be the right place to be 

[OliverBlackman]

1 hour ago, Geek99 said:

I think that one again, basschat has proved itself to be the right place to be 

[Cliff Edge]

Very interesting thread and I’m not sure what anyone would make of mine. You can see the neck stamp isn’t very helpful. Maple neck with black binding and block markers. Two holes for the tug bar under the G string, four bolt neck. The pickups, pots and wiring all went in the bin at various times years ago when they stopped functioning or got noisy. Back then collectable 70’s guitars were not a thing and gigging 5 or 6 days a week I needed a working bass. It still plays nicely but doesn't get much use these days. 

[OliverBlackman]

2 minutes ago, Cliff Edge said:

Very interesting thread and I’m not sure what anyone would make of mine. You can see the neck stamp isn’t very helpful. Maple neck with black binding and block markers. Two holes for the tug bar under the G string, four bolt neck. The pickups, pots and wiring all went in the bin at various times years ago when they stopped functioning or got noisy. Back then collectable 70’s guitars were not a thing and gigging 5 or 6 days a week I needed a working bass. It still plays nicely but doesn't get much use these days. 

It faintly looks like 72 stamped at one point. Would be good to see more pics! I think the 3 bolt tilt came in around 74

[Hellzero]

1971 for the 3 bolts necks by Fender.

 

I clearly read 72 too. 😉

[Geek99]

1 hour ago, Cliff Edge said:

Very interesting thread and I’m not sure what anyone would make of mine. You can see the neck stamp isn’t very helpful. Maple neck with black binding and block markers. Two holes for the tug bar under the G string, four bolt neck. The pickups, pots and wiring all went in the bin at various times years ago when they stopped functioning or got noisy. Back then collectable 70’s guitars were not a thing and gigging 5 or 6 days a week I needed a working bass. It still plays nicely but doesn't get much use these days. 

You probably don’t need it any more then. I’ll use it more, honestly. It’s what Leo would have wanted so donate it to me in his memory 

[mattpbass]

5 hours ago, Hellzero said:

1971 for the 3 bolts necks by Fender.

 

I clearly read 72 too. 😉

71 it started being introduced on guitars, 74 was the main transition year from 4 to 3 for a Jazz. 

[Hellzero]

11 minutes ago, mattpbass said:

71 it started being introduced on guitars, 74 was the main transition year from 4 to 3 for a Jazz. 

Indeed, but I was simply giving the correct year of introduction of the 3 bolts tilt neck and bullet truss rod, not mentioning at all it was for the Jazz Bass. 😉

[Geek99]

3 hours ago, Hellzero said:

Indeed, but I was simply giving the correct year of introduction of the 3 bolts tilt neck and bullet truss rod, not mentioning at all it was for the Jazz Bass. 😉

But these things were very variable. There was not a single day when Leo said “3 bolt necks from now on”, they used up the parts they had and those transitional models are out there somewhere 

[Doctor J]

Of course not, as Leo had sold out many years before. Such decisions were the realm of the mighty CBS corporation who thought "Screw quality, shift more units! SHIFT THEM NOW!!!"

[Hellzero]

13 hours ago, Hellzero said:

Indeed, but I was simply giving the correct year of introduction of the 3 bolts tilt neck and bullet truss rod, not mentioning at all it was for the Jazz Bass. 😉

And to be totally complete, just in case, the Precision Bass never received the 3 bolts tilt neck with the bullet truss rod (introduced in June 1971), but the Telecaster Bass second version introduced in early 1972 was immediately fitted with this new "improved" system.

 

That said 1974 as the transition year for the abovementioned system on the Jazz Bass is just a TalkBass statement... And there are certainly early example of 3 bolts Jazz Bass in the wild as usual with Fender.

[neepheid]

22 hours ago, TheStarsmith said:

Hi all, quick update.

 

I was still interested in the bass and tried to renegotiate the price down using this thread as a basis for it. Unfortunately it seems it wasn't something they were prepared to do and they will be sending my deposit back. I've since found a numbers matching '73 Bass in original case for £1000 less so "every cloud."

 

Thanks for everyone's advice.

 

I'll be putting my NS-2 up for sale soon. 

 

Thanks

Lee

 

 

Sounds like the standard response to rationally pointing out that someone has overpriced an item, unfortunately.

[Cliff Edge]

2 hours ago, Hellzero said:

And to be totally complete, just in case, the Precision Bass never received the 3 bolts tilt neck with the bullet truss rod (introduced in June 1971), but the Telecaster Bass second version introduced in early 1972 was immediately fitted with this new "improved" system.

 

That said 1974 as the transition year for the abovementioned system on the Jazz Bass is just a TalkBass statement... And there are certainly early example of 3 bolts Jazz Bass in the wild as usual with Fender.

It is very difficult to accurately date any Fender instrument from the early CBS years. They bought up large quantities of components to save money and dumped them in the parts bins for the assemblers to pick from. So it’s quite possible to get a guitar that has apparently been made in two different years if you go by the numbers on neck plates and pots. The only reliable dateable bits if they are stamped at all are the wooden bits manufactured in the factory. Some things on those parts that changed the appearance of the instruments are often a better way, like the position of the tug bar, where that transition is known from Fender catalogues. 

[Hellzero]

Thanks @Cliff Edge, but you don't seem to know that it's something I'm known for and that I also wrote a mémoire (in French) about vintage instruments, which has been shared here. 😉

 

It's as hard to date a pre CBS, CBS or post CBS Fender than a Dan Smith era model and you have to take everything into account including stamps, known facts and the absolutely non reliable serial numbers.

 

The instrument has to be disassembled to asses its origins and to be able to date it even if some are reluctant to do so.

 

Check with my pseudo and you'll see that I've done this a lot of times just to help when others would have asked for money.

[Cliff Edge]

2 hours ago, Hellzero said:

Thanks @Cliff Edge, but you don't seem to know that it's something I'm known for and that I also wrote a mémoire (in French) about vintage instruments, which has been shared here. 😉

 

It's as hard to date a pre CBS, CBS or post CBS Fender than a Dan Smith era model and you have to take everything into account including stamps, known facts and the absolutely non reliable serial numbers.

 

The instrument has to be disassembled to asses its origins and to be able to date it even if some are reluctant to do so.

 

Check with my pseudo and you'll see that I've done this a lot of times just to help when others would have asked for money.

You are correct, it is not something I was aware of.  I am always happy to be corrected. 

[mattpbass]

12 hours ago, Hellzero said:

And to be totally complete, just in case, the Precision Bass never received the 3 bolts tilt neck with the bullet truss rod (introduced in June 1971), but the Telecaster Bass second version introduced in early 1972 was immediately fitted with this new "improved" system.

 

That said 1974 as the transition year for the abovementioned system on the Jazz Bass is just a TalkBass statement... And there are certainly early example of 3 bolts Jazz Bass in the wild as usual with Fender.

There are early examples pre-74 with 3 bolt, and late examples post-74 with 4 bolt, but 74 was still the year when the majority became 3 bolt was it not?

[Hellzero]

In fact, officially, it's late 72, early 73 for the transition from 4 to 3 bolts on the Jazz Basses.

 

I don't know why this 1974 is always put upfront.

 

When in doubt, this website is a goldmine, with, sometimes, a very tiny minor "oversight" in the text itself: https://www.guitarhq.com/fender.html

[mattpbass]

21 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

In fact, officially, it's late 72, early 73 for the transition from 4 to 3 bolts on the Jazz Basses.

 

I don't know why this 1974 is always put upfront.

 

When in doubt, this website is a goldmine, with, sometimes, a very tiny minor "oversight" in the text itself: https://www.guitarhq.com/fender.html

That site is indeed really useful, I used it a lot when I was trying to figure out the age of my own early 70s Jazz. It’s clearly not an exact science, mine has pots from late 73, is 4 bolt, with a case that came in in 74, long G bridge screw, I’ve just settled on somewhere around 73/74. 😅
 

The date that site gives for 3 bolts on a jazz is late 73. 

[Belka]

On 27/07/2024 at 08:12, Hellzero said:

In fact, officially, it's late 72, early 73 for the transition from 4 to 3 bolts on the Jazz Basses.

 

I don't know why this 1974 is always put upfront.

 

When in doubt, this website is a goldmine, with, sometimes, a very tiny minor "oversight" in the text itself: https://www.guitarhq.com/fender.html

There are some minor errors I can see on that site. It says that binding on J bass fingerboards appeared in mid to late '65 while lollipop tuners came out in '66. That's definitely an error - it was the other way around - the lollipops appeared in late 65 while I've never seen binding on a '65. I think I've even seen some early Jan 66 models still without the binding. Noel Redding's original Jazz is an example of a late '65 with the lollipops. 

 

Don't mean to be too negative though - it's obviously a very useful site.

[Belka]

On 26/07/2024 at 13:44, Hellzero said:

Thanks @Cliff Edge, but you don't seem to know that it's something I'm known for and that I also wrote a mémoire (in French) about vintage instruments, which has been shared here. 😉

 

It's as hard to date a pre CBS, CBS or post CBS Fender than a Dan Smith era model and you have to take everything into account including stamps, known facts and the absolutely non reliable serial numbers.

 

The instrument has to be disassembled to asses its origins and to be able to date it even if some are reluctant to do so.

 

Check with my pseudo and you'll see that I've done this a lot of times just to help when others would have asked for money.

Just out of interest, do you have a link to this memoire -  would be very interested to see it.

[Hellzero]

4 hours ago, Belka said:

There are some minor errors I can see on that site. It says that binding on J bass fingerboards appeared in mid to late '65 while lollipop tuners came out in '66. That's definitely an error - it was the other way around - the lollipops appeared in late 65 while I've never seen binding on a '65. I think I've even seen some early Jan 66 models still without the binding. Noel Redding's original Jazz is an example of a late '65 with the lollipops. 

 

Don't mean to be too negative though - it's obviously a very useful site.

Nope, you should also read Klaus Blasquiz's book "The Fender Bass", who, IIRC, is the only author to have met and interviewed Leo Fender himself as well as a lot of people involved in Fender's history.

 

So the Lollipop tuners were introduced in 1966, first on the P-Bass and the binding was first used in mid to late 65, but as usual with Fender this does absolutely not mean that the new features were used immediately as they also used existing parts first...

 

Noel Redding joined the Jimi Hendrix Experience in September 1966 and switched to bass at that moment and seemed to have used any bass available at the beginning, including a Dan Electro in Evreux France on the 18th of October 1966 for their first official concert.

 

He then switched to the Jazz Bass for a while, but according to all footage not before 1967, so maybe he bought his Jazz Bass at the moment and it's a 1966, not a 1965, with Lollipop tuners indeed and no binding, but that's absolutely not unusual if you know Fender history...

 

The Noel Redding Signature bass based on his main Jazz Bass is a recreation of a 1965 Jazz Bass with Clover Leaf aka Elephant Ear tuners.

 

Edited July 30 by Hellzero
Wording

[Hellzero]

2 hours ago, Belka said:

Just out of interest, do you have a link to this memoire -  would be very interested to see it.

Les guitares et basses électriques.doc

[Belka]

3 hours ago, Hellzero said:

Nope, you should also read Klaus Blasquiz's book "The Fender Bass", who, IIRC, is the only author to have met and interviewed Leo Fender himself as well as a lot of people involved in Fender's history.

 

So the Lollipop tuners were introduced in 1966, first on the P-Bass and the binding was first used in mid to late 65, but as usual with Fender this does absolutely not mean that the new features were used immediately as he aldo used existing parts first...

 

Noel Redding joined the Jimi Hendrix Experience in September 1966 and switched to bass at that moment and seemed to have used any bass available at the beginning, including a Dan Electro in Evreux France on the 18th of October 1966 for their first official concert.

 

He then switched to the Jazz Bass for a while, but according to all footage not before 1967, so maybe he bought his Jazz Bass at the moment and it's a 1966, not a 1965, with Lollipop tuners indeed and no binding, but that's absolutely not unusual if you know Fender history...

 

The Noel Redding Signature bass based on his main Jazz Bass is a recreation of a 1965 Jazz Bass with Clover Leaf aka Elephant Ear tuners.

 

Still not sure about this to be honest. It's just that I've seen quite a few basses purported to be from late '65 with unbound fingerboards and lollipop tuners, but I have never seen a '65 or '66 bass with binding and elephant ear tuners. I mean, I've just never seen one. Not saying they don't exist but if they do they must be very rare.

 

Andy Baxter has two late '65 J basses with unbound fingerboards and lollipops at the moment (neck stamps on both show late '65). I've scoured Google images and the vintage stores, and I can't find a single example of a '65 Jazz with binding, or any J bass that has binding and elephant ear tuners.

 

Binding did appear in mid-late 1965 on Jazzmaster and Jaguar guitars however - perhaps this is what Leo meant. 

[Belka]

2 hours ago, Hellzero said:

Les guitares et basses électriques.doc 3.46 MB · 4 downloads

Thanks!