Most accurate tuner?

[dlloyd]

[quote name='rslaing' post='496908' date='May 24 2009, 11:06 PM']I didn't say it did. The Feiten system overcomes the main problem with fretted instruments and overall tuning. AND HAS THE FACILITY IF DESIRED, to tune to any temperament you wish - including just tempered.[/quote]

No it doesn't. You cannot tune an equally tempered fixed pitch instrument to just intonation.

It has the facility to tune specific notes within any given temperament, but as soon as you tune any string to one specific note, every other note on that string is out of tune in just intonation.

For instance, let's assume you're wanting to intonate a 34" bass in the key of A major using just intonation. We'll ignore the lower fret problem for the moment as it's irrelevant to the question of temperament. We'll also just stick to the notes of the major scale in the first octave.

You would tune the major scale using the ratios:

9/8, 5/4, 4/3, 3/2, 5/3, 15/8, 2/1

In cents, that's 203.91, 386.31, 498.04, 701.96, 884.36, 1088.27 and 1200.00

To achieve that, you have to physically move the frets.

2nd fret: Major second. 3.91 cents sharp relative to 12 tone equal temperament.
Requires movement of fret 1.7 mm towards bridge.

4th fret: Major third. 13.91 cents flat relative to 12 tone equal temperament.
Requires movement of fret 5.4 mm towards nut.

5th fret: Perfect fourth. 1.96 cents flat relative to 12 tone equal temperament.
Requires movement of fret 0.7 mm towards nut.

7th fret: Perfect fifth. 1.96 cents sharp relative to 12 tone equal temperament.
Requires movement of fret 0.7 mm towards bridge.

9th fret: Major sixth. 15.64 cents flat relative to 12 tone equal temperament.
Requires movement of fret 4.7 mm towards nut.

11th fret: Major seventh. 11.73 cents flat relative to 12 tone equal temperament.
Requires movement of fret 3.11 mm towards nut.

12th fret: Perfect octave stays where it is.

Using just intonation, you end up with frets all over the place, as the formula changes for every single string, and at the end of it, you've solved it for a single key.

I would ignore the people who are 'supporting' you.

Edited May 24, 2009 by dlloyd

[Mr. Foxen]

Damn, some answer the question " Accurate to what?", because until that is covered, nothing else in this thread is valid. If your A on the 5th fret of the bottom string of a 4 string in standard tuning is at 44hz (or whatever exact concert pitch is) and everyone else is the equivalent of 2hz short of that, it is you that is out of tune. Being in tune is not a solo excercise. Doesn't matter how accurate your tuner is to exact numbers of oscillations per second, you need to be in tune with everyone, and that includes the tuning idiosyncrasies of a standard tuned and intonated guitar, which in most cases you will be required to be in tune with at least one of.

Also: [url="http://www.lucytune.com/guitars_and_frets/frets.html"]More than 12 frets per octave.[/url]

Edited May 24, 2009 by Mr. Foxen

[rslaing]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='496928' date='May 24 2009, 11:31 PM']No it doesn't. You cannot tune an equally tempered fixed pitch instrument to just intonation.

It has the facility to tune specific notes within any given temperament, but as soon as you tune any string to one specific note, every other note on that string is out of tune in just intonation.

For instance, let's assume you're wanting to intonate a 34" bass in the key of A major using just intonation. We'll ignore the lower fret problem for the moment as it's irrelevant to the question of temperament. We'll also just stick to the notes of the major scale in the first octave.

You would tune the major scale using the ratios:

9/8, 5/4, 4/3, 3/2, 5/3, 15/8, 2/1

In cents, that's 203.91, 386.31, 498.04, 701.96, 884.36, 1088.27 and 1200.00

To achieve that, you have to physically move the frets.

2nd fret: Major second. 3.91 cents sharp relative to 12 tone equal temperament.
Requires movement of fret 1.7 mm towards bridge.

4th fret: Major third. 13.91 cents flat relative to 12 tone equal temperament.
Requires movement of fret 5.4 mm towards nut.

5th fret: Perfect fourth. 1.96 cents flat relative to 12 tone equal temperament.
Requires movement of fret 0.7 mm towards nut.

7th fret: Perfect fifth. 1.96 cents sharp relative to 12 tone equal temperament.
Requires movement of fret 0.7 mm towards bridge.

9th fret: Major sixth. 15.64 cents flat relative to 12 tone equal temperament.
Requires movement of fret 4.7 mm towards nut.

11th fret: Major seventh. 11.73 cents flat relative to 12 tone equal temperament.
Requires movement of fret 3.11 mm towards nut.

12th fret: Perfect octave stays where it is.

Using just intonation, you end up with frets all over the place, as the formula changes for every single string, and at the end of it, you've solved it for a single key.

I would ignore the people who are 'supporting' you.[/quote]

From the Peterson site:-

We can purposely shift certain scale notes closer to or farther from their neighbors to make perfect intervals or chords in some places. If we choose wisely, we can make the most important chords in a given key be the perfect ones. [b]This is the concept behind Just Intonation (JST in the Temperament Menu of Peterson tuners).[/b] In the key of C, the chords of C major, F major, and G major can each have perfectly harmonious tuning intervals. Unfortunately, other chords, especially those in more remote keys like C# and F#, sound much worse than they would in equal temperament. If an instrument like a piano is tuned in Just Major temperament for the key of C, notes and chords that fall in the C Major scale sound wonderful. Modulating to the key of G, most chords sound good, some not quite as good. If one takes a more adventurous trek into the key of E, say, some real "ear-sores" start to develop in certain chords and intervals. Historically, the clinkers are dubbed "wolf tones" which gives some indication of their "charm".

If you can disprove this, sue them.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='rslaing' post='496914' date='May 24 2009, 11:14 PM']Sorry ........no. There are no misunderstandings. You made your point very clearly.[/quote]

I know I made my point clearly. Which was that I wasn't going to take any nonsense from you. I'd prefer to do this by PM, but you've shut that option down.

To reiterate my PM's closing observation, I value some of your views and you make some worthwhile points, but getting into rows with members because they advance an alternative point of view is going to limit your enjoyment of the forum.

It is [i]just not on [/i]to close down a contrary opinion or parallel discussion by deeming it 'off topic'. And slapping people for disagreeing and quoting wadges of manufacturer's manual in support of your contentions isn't going to help any of us.

FFS, I agree with you that the Peterson's a fine tuner. [i]I agree with your opinion[/i]. Please accept that for what it's worth.

But I'm not going to sit still while you wander round this forum telling people that their opinion is bollocks and if, as with my PM, you want to threaten to report me to the mods for posting this sentiment, go right ahead.

Edited May 24, 2009 by skankdelvar

[leschirons]

[quote name='boabskiboab' post='495588' date='May 22 2009, 08:40 PM']First up if this is in the wrong place.. sorry, i'm sure someone will move it.

After a jam with a couple of friends, i notice something.

I was the only person to bring a tuner, so shared it out.

My bass sounded sweet , but the two guitards were a mile off .

Now my tuner is quite a ropey £20 boss.

Is this down to a crappy tuner or something else.

What is/are the best/most accurate tuners to get?

Cheers in Advance[/quote]

Two new guitarists perhaps?

[rslaing]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='496928' date='May 24 2009, 11:31 PM']No it doesn't. You cannot tune an equally tempered fixed pitch instrument to just intonation.

It has the facility to tune specific notes within any given temperament, but as soon as you tune any string to one specific note, every other note on that string is out of tune in just intonation.

For instance, let's assume you're wanting to intonate a 34" bass in the key of A major using just intonation. We'll ignore the lower fret problem for the moment as it's irrelevant to the question of temperament. We'll also just stick to the notes of the major scale in the first octave.

You would tune the major scale using the ratios:

9/8, 5/4, 4/3, 3/2, 5/3, 15/8, 2/1

In cents, that's 203.91, 386.31, 498.04, 701.96, 884.36, 1088.27 and 1200.00

To achieve that, you have to physically move the frets.

2nd fret: Major second. 3.91 cents sharp relative to 12 tone equal temperament.
Requires movement of fret 1.7 mm towards bridge.

4th fret: Major third. 13.91 cents flat relative to 12 tone equal temperament.
Requires movement of fret 5.4 mm towards nut.

5th fret: Perfect fourth. 1.96 cents flat relative to 12 tone equal temperament.
Requires movement of fret 0.7 mm towards nut.

7th fret: Perfect fifth. 1.96 cents sharp relative to 12 tone equal temperament.
Requires movement of fret 0.7 mm towards bridge.

9th fret: Major sixth. 15.64 cents flat relative to 12 tone equal temperament.
Requires movement of fret 4.7 mm towards nut.

11th fret: Major seventh. 11.73 cents flat relative to 12 tone equal temperament.
Requires movement of fret 3.11 mm towards nut.

12th fret: Perfect octave stays where it is.

Using just intonation, you end up with frets all over the place, as the formula changes for every single string, and at the end of it, you've solved it for a single key.

I would ignore the people who are 'supporting' you.[/quote]

WHy don't you try and disprove this too:-

[b]Dedicated Tuning Options for All Genres
The StroboFlip is the first tuner to feature Sweeteners™ - preset perfect fifth intervals for violin, viola or cello; perfect thirds for Dobro® or resonator guitars; tuning and intonation presets for the Buzz Feiten Tuning System® for guitar, bass, and acoustic guitar; and both Buzz and Peterson Sweetened settings for 12-string guitar. The StroboFlip also includes E9th & C6th pedal steel guitar presets, exclusive Peterson presets for the whole guitar family, and more!

A long list of classic temperament presets such as [i][u]Just Major, Just Minor, Pythagorean, 1/4 & 1/6th Comma Meantone, Werckmeister III, Kirnberger III, Kellner, Young, Vallotti and Rameau[/u][/i] are also included. These temperaments are all root adjustable.
[/b]

Edited May 24, 2009 by rslaing

[rslaing]

[quote name='leschirons' post='496933' date='May 24 2009, 11:37 PM']Two new guitarists perhaps?[/quote]

Educate them on how to use a tuner - then when they can, get them a strobe tuner

[rslaing]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='496932' date='May 24 2009, 11:37 PM']I know I made my point clearly. Which was that I wasn't going to take any nonsense from you. I'd prefer to do this by PM, but you've shut that option down.

To reiterate my PM's closing observation, I value some of your views and you make some worthwhile points, but getting into rows with members because they advance an alternative point of view is going to limit your enjoyment of the forum.

It is [i]just not on [/i]to close down a contrary opinion or parallel discussion by deeming it 'off topic'. And slapping people for disagreeing and quoting wadges of manufacturer's manual in support of your contentions isn't going to help any of us.

FFS, I agree with you that the Peterson's a fine tuner. [i]I agree with your opinion[/i]. Please accept that for what it's worth.

But I'm not going to sit still while you wander round this forum telling people that their opinion is bollocks and if, as with my PM, you want to threaten to report me to the mods for posting this sentiment, go right ahead.[/quote]

No need, I told you, I accept your opinion. But I don't agree with you.

[dlloyd]

Mods: I realise this thread is way off-topic. Could it remain open while I answer rslaing's final point?

[rslaing]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='496940' date='May 24 2009, 11:43 PM']Mods: I realise this thread is way off-topic. Could it remain open while I answer rslaing's final point?[/quote]

I don't think it is off topic at all - it is about accurate tuning?

[rslaing]

'night - it's been hilarious.............

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='rslaing' post='496938' date='May 24 2009, 11:43 PM']No need, I told you, I accept your opinion. But I don't agree with you.[/quote]

There - all sorted. Everybody's happy.

Edited May 24, 2009 by skankdelvar

[Mr Fudge]

I think Im ditching my pedals and going bareback ... I'll keep you all posted

[Count Bassy]

[quote name='rslaing' post='496891' date='May 24 2009, 10:39 PM'][/quote]

""The peterson probably can help with equal temperament stuff by using compensated tunings, but this is more to do with features than accuracy. Also, even with funny tunings and intonations this can only help hide the problems caused by equal temperament frets. It cannot make an equal temperament fretboard produce, for example, a just temperament scale. [b]OH YES IT CAN. READ THE MANUAL ONLINE[/b]"

[i]As DLloyd has also said, this would involve moving frets around. Yes a compensated tuning can help, but it cannot make it perfect. Even if it could achieve perfect Just tuning, Just tuning is itself a still compromise. [/i]


"The only way to do this is by bending each note to the right pitch, which you are then reckognising by ear, so the accuracy of the tuner is rather wasted. [b]RUBBISH! imho[/b]"

[i]Compensating tunings can help, but bending each not is the only way that you can make an equally tempered fretboard play each note in the scale play spot on. You are then under human control rather than tuner control[/i]


"Fretting harder than you normally do could be down to bad technique. [b]CORRECT[/b]"

[i]Why, thank you.[/i]


"Plucking harder and softer is a necessary part of playing - unless you play all your notes at the same volume - which would be rather boring. [b]SOUNDS LIKE AN EXCUSE TO ME[/b]"

[i]So you are saying that you play all your notes at the same volume. Fair enough, but have you heard the expression 'Dynamics'?[/i]


"Not pressing the string completely normal to the keyboard might be bad technique, but I'm sure every one does it ocassionally. [b]REALLY?[/b]"

[i]Yes. Really![/i]


"Strings going out of tune with temperature is nothing to do with technique, more physics. [b]BUY AN INSTRUMENT WITH A GRAPHITE NECK - LESSER CHANCE [/b]"

[i]I'm curious as to what you strings are made of. Mine are made of metal and thus expand when warm, reducing the tension, and thus flattening the note. and, conversly, go sharp when the get colder.[/i]


"Strings going flat when you fret two strings is nothing to do with technique (unless your technique means only ever playing one note at a time)[b]BOLLOCKS[/b]"

[i]When you fret two strings then there is an increase in tension in those two stings that will cause the neck to pull forward, and hence flatten the notes slightly. Of course this is imperceptibe to the human ear, but then that is what we're talking about with the accuracy of the petersen and turbo tuners.
I'm afraid that just replying 'Bollocks' does not help your cedibilty.[/i]


"Intonation will not be accurate at all frets - nothing to do with technique. Compensating tunings help - but do not solve the problem. [b]YES THEY DO. I have a strobe tuner that has proved this to be the case - have you?[/b]"

[i]No, but the frets are set up mathematically according to an equal temperament scale. Compensating tunings etc can help in the overal apearance of in tuneness, but cannot make it perfect.[/i]


"I'm not saying, and never said, that the cheaper tuners are more accurate than the peterson or the turbo thingamy, but that in 99% of cases they are quite accurate enough. [b]NOT IN MY EXPERIENCE, NOR THE PROFESSIONALS I HAVE WORKED WITH - and I wouldn't want a pro luthier to set up any of my expensive instruments with el crappo £20 tuner[/b]"

[i]But setting up of guitars probably constitutes less than 1% of total tuner usage, which is why I said 99% and not 100%.[/i]


"In most real situations there are many features of a tuner that are more important than accuracy. For stage use I'd be looking at robustess, readabilty for 2 metres away on a dark stage, Speed of response, abilty to pick up the fundamental and, if its a stomp box style, the ability to mute the output while the tuner is active. etc etc. [b]ALL OF WHICH APPLIES TO THE PETERSON STROBOSTOMP[/b]"

[i]I'm very pleased to hear it. It also applies to many perfectly adequate tuners that cost much less.[/i]


"If accuracy and compensating tunings is what you want (as per the original posting) then go for the turbo thingamy jig (apparently more accurate than a Peterson), but in most cases a much cheaper device will be perfectly adequate."[/i] AYE..IF YOU HAVE DEFICIENT TONAL HEARING DISABILITY."

[i]Now you're just getting personal and rude. Perhaps you've been drinking and will be good enough to apologise once you've sobered up?[/i]


"go for the turbo thingamy jig"[/i] Great advice.but the Peterson still has more advantageous features.......[/b]

[b]It would be great, instead of hearing from people with unproved theories but with a great propensity for ridicule, to read experiences from people who actually own a Peterson strobe tuner[/b]."

[i]Seems to me that You are the one with the propensity to ridicule here. Most people here are offering reasonable points of view and making reasonable points. If you only want to hear from people with a Peterson tuner it would seem that you only want to hear from people who might agree with you. Sounds to me like you realise that your argument is a bit thin.[/i]


By the way, did you realise that typing everything in capitals is considered to be shouting, and as being very rude.

Anticipating your reasoned, and non shouted, reply.

[Count Bassy]

Whoah, tons happened while I was typing out my reply to RSLaing's reply to my post.

But, RS laing, you quote:

[quote name='rslaing' post='496930' date='May 24 2009, 11:36 PM']From the Peterson site:-

We can purposely shift certain scale notes closer to or farther from their neighbors to make perfect intervals or chords in some places. If we choose wisely, we can make the most important chords in a given key be the perfect ones. [b]This is the concept behind Just Intonation (JST in the Temperament Menu of Peterson tuners).[/b] In the key of C, the chords of C major, F major, and G major can each have perfectly harmonious tuning intervals. Unfortunately, other chords, especially those in more remote keys like C# and F#, sound much worse than they would in equal temperament. If an instrument like a piano is tuned in Just Major temperament for the key of C, notes and chords that fall in the C Major scale sound wonderful. Modulating to the key of G, most chords sound good, some not quite as good. If one takes a more adventurous trek into the key of E, say, some real "ear-sores" start to develop in certain chords and intervals. Historically, the clinkers are dubbed "wolf tones" which gives some indication of their "charm".

If you can disprove this, sue them.[/quote]

If you have read this than you will see that even they say that Just temperament makes common chords in some keys sound nicer - but that chords in other keys sound worse. If your singer says 'can we take it up a semi tone', or (I imagine) if your playing jazz, then you're fcuked. Even if they could acheive perfect Just intonation then it only works for a limited number of chords. As i said in my previous post, Just tuning is itself a compromise, in the same way that equal temperament is.

Edited - and of course any temperament depends on all the other instruments also being in that temperament. I would want to wait between songs while the piano is retuned.

Edited May 24, 2009 by Clive Thorne

[dlloyd]

[quote name='rslaing' post='496934' date='May 24 2009, 11:38 PM']WHy don't you try and disprove this too:-

[b]Dedicated Tuning Options for All Genres
The StroboFlip is the first tuner to feature Sweeteners™ - preset perfect fifth intervals for violin, viola or cello; perfect thirds for Dobro® or resonator guitars; tuning and intonation presets for the Buzz Feiten Tuning System® for guitar, bass, and acoustic guitar; and both Buzz and Peterson Sweetened settings for 12-string guitar. The StroboFlip also includes E9th & C6th pedal steel guitar presets, exclusive Peterson presets for the whole guitar family, and more!

A long list of classic temperament presets such as [i][u]Just Major, Just Minor, Pythagorean, 1/4 & 1/6th Comma Meantone, Werckmeister III, Kirnberger III, Kellner, Young, Vallotti and Rameau[/u][/i] are also included. These temperaments are all root adjustable.
[/b][/quote]

As I said, it's a fantastic pedal. Almost certainly the best tuner pedal that's out there.

But it caters for a lot more than fretted guitars and basses.

For instance, I play a few other instruments as well as bass and guitar. As unfashionable as it is, my first instrument is clarinet, although I've let it slip in recent years and I'm badly out of practice.

A fairly recent development in woodwind pedagogy is practicing long tones using a tuner. Tuning of wind instruments, particularly clarinets which overblow at the 12th is notoriously difficult, especially since embouchure (mouth shape and lip pressure on the mouthpiece) can seriously influence pitch. For instance, I can bend some notes by as much as a whole tone or more, depending on the type of reed and mouthpiece I'm using (less so on orchestral style pieces: narrow appertures, hard reeds). The embouchure you use for playing a bottom E is completely different than that used for a top C, and the use of an incorrect embouchure can drastically affect your tuning.

When I was actively going to lessons, more than twenty years ago, you'd rely on your ears to get you there, but now the fashion is to practice with a tuner. So clarinetists have gone out and bought cheap tuners en masse and are all practicing to equally tempered scales which, to my mind is insane... your ears are far more accurate. But I can see an argument for advanced students (ie. beyond grade 8) tuning to orchestral temperaments, such as just intonation, which this pedal supplies.

The same idea could be advanced for fretless basses... if you have a piece in Bb major that you want to practice to its logical conclusion, you'd set the pedal to just intonation in the key of Bb and go from there. But with fretted instruments, there's little point. Just intonation has no application to a fixed pitch instrument, unless you are actively bending the notes to compensate for equal temperament. I don't know of anyone doing that... if they were, you'd expect them to have boasted about it to the magazines by now.

Tuning sweeteners, such as those Petersen give for Dobro, cater for styles where specific intervals tend to fall on specific strings. If you're playing slide in open G, you will find major thirds often fall on the second string ('B' when you're barring a whole chord. It's a no-brainer to adjust the tuning to bring that major third closer to just temperament. Similarly, if you're playing simple pop/folk music where you're using open chords, you'll find again that the major third tends to fall on one of a couple of strings, and we've all seen guitarists tune to open chords.

Edited May 25, 2009 by dlloyd

[dlloyd]

Just intonated bass (I would love to try this out):



Sweetened guitar (Yamaha Fretwave system, sweetens open A and E chords):

[waynepunkdude]

I played a gig tonight, couldn't be arsed so I just got the lights to go as close to green as possible didn't make a blind bit of difference it was close enough to sound in tune. I'll save my money and buy something useful like a hooker.

[Greene-Mann]

[quote name='waynepunkdude' post='497009' date='May 25 2009, 01:02 AM']I played a gig tonight, couldn't be arsed so I just got the lights to go as close to green as possible didn't make a blind bit of difference it was close enough to sound in tune. I'll save my money and buy something useful like a hooker.[/quote]

+1 for that

[The Burpster]

I say there has been some teddy throwing on this thread hasnt there......


My experience.....


I have progressed to a Peterson V-Sam for set ups as they would appear to be the most accurate that you can buy at sensible money...... It is FAR more accurate than several that I have had on teh way through to here. (Including top of the range Roland/Boss which my g-tarist now has!)

I have a Korg DT-10 on my pedal board which is sufficient when playing because its quick and simple, and if the instrument (6string or bass) was set up properly when the strings were fitted will (I have found) stay close enough for the human ear until they need replacing, unless something drastic happens to it in the mean time...

My contirbution FWIW

[Paul Cooke]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='496703' date='May 24 2009, 05:27 PM']How comes I always end up "finishing myself off" over the Peterson website then?[/quote]

it's a "Strobe Tuner"... not a "Stroke Tuner"...

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='496974' date='May 25 2009, 12:20 AM']Just intonated bass (I would love to try this out):

[/quote]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aekjzKg3B30"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aekjzKg3B30[/url]

Interesting, but not enough to make me want to learn to play one. I've got enough on my hands learning to play a standard P-bass properly.

And don't get me started on the Dingwall.

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='496906' date='May 24 2009, 11:00 PM']This is getting kind of boring.

The Feiten system does not magically create just intonation. It compensates for lower fret inaccuracy.[/quote]

Is this what we all need, then?


(Taken from the Yamaha AES Frank Gambale Signature guitar)
This would make a difference, presumably. I should imagine this cures the lower fret inaccuracy, but what about allowing just intonation?
The question that begs is;
If this necessary to achieve tuning accuracy (and I'm not inferring that it isn't), why haven't manufacturers adopted it en masse?

[dlloyd]

[quote name='Lfalex v1.1' post='497168' date='May 25 2009, 11:24 AM']Is this what we all need, then?


(Taken from the Yamaha AES Frank Gambale Signature guitar)
This would make a difference, presumably. I should imagine this cures the lower fret inaccuracy, but what about allowing just intonation?
The question that begs is;
If this necessary to achieve tuning accuracy (and I'm not inferring that it isn't), why haven't manufacturers adopted it en masse?[/quote]

It (or a variation of it) might sort it, as long as consistent string stiffness could be guaranteed. I don't know how much different string gauge would affect it.

In any case, for most of us it's another of those solutions without a problem, and most people would see wavy frets as a gimmick.

It'll be interesting to see what happens in a couple of years when Buzz Feiten's patent runs out.

[jonny-lad]

[quote name='boabskiboab' post='495588' date='May 22 2009, 09:40 PM']First up if this is in the wrong place.. sorry, i'm sure someone will move it.

After a jam with a couple of friends, i notice something.

I was the only person to bring a tuner, so shared it out.

My bass sounded sweet , but the two guitards were a mile off .

Now my tuner is quite a ropey £20 boss.

Is this down to a crappy tuner or something else.

What is/are the best/most accurate tuners to get?

Cheers in Advance[/quote]

I don't doubt the benefits of a really accurate tuner, but even with a cheap tuner, a guitarist should be able to get some useable results.

I've never had the budget for a peterson or similar, so I'll have to work with what I can afford, but it's never caused me any problems.