What are the pros and cons of mic'ing a bass port rather than the speaker?

[Downunderwonder]

2 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

It's better for the sound man/woman to have a clean slate to work with.

Myth that will never die.

 

If the PA sound out front is EQ'd to the room the cab sound will only require minimal tweakage. Requires the band to have a good stage mix of their own sounds. That is what pro bands do.

 

It is far easier to EQ the PA to the room than EQ every channel to the room.

 

I get really tired of being told my E string is boomy when we play the town hall. The bloody hall is boomy. It rings like a bell at 80hz.

[BigRedX]

23 minutes ago, Downunderwonder said:

Myth that will never die.

 

If the PA sound out front is EQ'd to the room the cab sound will only require minimal tweakage. Requires the band to have a good stage mix of their own sounds. That is what pro bands do.

 

It is far easier to EQ the PA to the room than EQ every channel to the room.

 

I get really tired of being told my E string is boomy when we play the town hall. The bloody hall is boomy. It rings like a bell at 80hz.

 

That only works if the PA is entirely responsible for what the audience hears. 

 

Also as I said in another thread recently I was at a gig where it was painfully clear that EQ alone cannot fix room problems. The venue is well known for being problematic with regards to sound quality mostly because the room is higher than it is wide. Over the past few years since new owners have taken it over the sound has been much improved by the addition of a bit of acoustic treatment and a better PA system. However it's still far from perfect. Normally when I go to gigs there one of my bands is also playing so we're normally stood at the back near the dressing room and close to the mixing desk location where the sound is usually pretty good. On this occasion being a punter only I was down the front for one band where the sound was very strange - almost no guitar audible and the bass guitar was mostly composed of nasty nasally mid-range tones. Retreating to the back of the room where I would normally stand and everything had a more suitable balance and the bass had the right amount of body. The headlining band sounded much better because they weren't using any backline, and although it still wasn't as good near the stage the difference in sound front and back of the room was much less pronounced.

[Dan Dare]

1 hour ago, Downunderwonder said:

Myth that will never die.

 

If the PA sound out front is EQ'd to the room the cab sound will only require minimal tweakage. Requires the band to have a good stage mix of their own sounds. That is what pro bands do.

 

It is far easier to EQ the PA to the room than EQ every channel to the room.

 

I get really tired of being told my E string is boomy when we play the town hall. The bloody hall is boomy. It rings like a bell at 80hz.

 

Hilarious, especially your closing sentence. If a venue has acoustic anomalies, we have to adjust to suit them. We can control the sound we are producing. We cannot control the construction/shape/size/acoustics of the venue. Unless we believe that "I am the main attraction. Everything else is just my supporting act", of course.

[Stub Mandrel]

8 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

Mic'ing the bass rig in any manner is not the best way to go, imho. DI is better. Before anyone starts talking about "my tone/sound", it needs to be realised that the sound that works onstage often doesn't work in the mix out in the room - different acoustics, different rig, etc, etc. It's better for the sound man/woman to have a clean slate to work with.

 

Yes, but tell that to a guitar player...

[PinkMohawk]

There's absolutely no pro's to mic'ing cab ports. As for mic'ing cabs in general, while that might not be 'optimal', honestly, when I'm running the desk, I much prefer having some character to the sound. Ideally I've looked up the bands I'm working with and have a loose idea of what it's going to sound like, but if I don't, having a tone to work from, rather than just 'clean slate' is more likely to get me to something that sounds like the band wants to sound. 

 

Live sound isn't just about reproducing perfect tones. I'd rather mix something to sound interesting than perfect. 

[agedhorse]

10 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

I think we should (1) be clear that @jazzyvee is very much a pro and (2) his post was a reaction to a response to his rig when he posted it on Facebook, he already concluded the port would be 'devoid of many frequencies' and wondered why anyone would want to mike it up.

 

Understood, I was responding to the question about what a "pro" is. I should also extend my response to those players who go out of their way to ACT like a pro, and to note that there are pros who don't act this way also.

 

10 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

Mic'ing the bass rig in any manner is not the best way to go, imho. DI is better. Before anyone starts talking about "my tone/sound", it needs to be realised that the sound that works onstage often doesn't work in the mix out in the room - different acoustics, different rig, etc, etc. It's better for the sound man/woman to have a clean slate to work with.

 

It really depends, sometimes micing a cabinet works very well and sometimes a DI is better, which is why when I mic a cabinet I also like to have a DI so that if needed I have options.

 

1 hour ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

Yes, but tell that to a guitar player...

 

Guitar is a very different beast. First of all we don't have to worry about the bottom octave which for bass is the hardest to mic accurately or successfully. The second reason is that the natural low pass effect of the speaker is used in combination with any distortion that may be used and it very much part of translating the electrical signal to an acoustic signal. This is why IR's are so much more common and useful (now) in the guitar world but not as useful in the bass world. Different sources require different tools for greater success.

[Chienmortbb]

32 minutes ago, agedhorse said:

sometimes micing a cabinet works very well and sometimes a DI is better, which is why when I mic a cabinet I also like to have a DI so that if needed I have options.

If you have enough channels, this is the best way to go, belt and braces.

 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

There are tonal nuances, especially those created by the speakers which include mechanical power compression, cone break up and THD, which can't be duplicated using a DI. If you want what's in the PA to come close to what's coming out of your rig only a mic will do. That doesn't mean the guy in the FOH can't screw it up anyway, but at least you've got chance of his getting it right.

[PinkMohawk]

19 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

There are tonal nuances, especially those created by the speakers which include mechanical power compression, cone break up and THD, which can't be duplicated using a DI. If you want what's in the PA to come close to what's coming out of your rig only a mic will do. That doesn't mean the guy in the FOH can't screw it up anyway, but at least you've got chance of his getting it right.

Unsurprisingly from Mr Fitzmaurice, absolutely correct. You lose all of those things when you DI. If that's what you want, great, but but I'll always prefer the sound of a mic'ed cab to a DI. 

 

And yes, FOH can always f*** it up, but, they can f*** up your DI signal as well.

[Beedster]

15 minutes ago, PinkMohawk said:

And yes, FOH can always f*** it up, but, they can f*** up your DI signal as well.

A good point 👍

[agedhorse]

1 hour ago, PinkMohawk said:

And yes, FOH can always f*** it up, but, they can f*** up your DI signal as well.

Only if you choose the wrong FOH guys...

[Stub Mandrel]

4 hours ago, agedhorse said:

Guitar is a very different beast.

 

My comment was light-hearted, in particular bass speakers are usually made with fidelity in mind. Guitar speakers are expected to 'break up' or at least strongly colour the sound when driven hard.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Not Eminence, for one. Back in the day there were no bass drivers, just musical instrument drivers. Bass and guitar cabs were loaded with the same drivers, so they both had similar coloration. As technology progressed bass drivers were made with lower resonance and longer excursion to better suit bass, but in order to preserve the midrange tone Eminence in particular maintained to the extent possible with the lower Fs and longer xmax a similar rising response in the mids, even with the advent of neo. LaVoce, a relative newcomer, has taken that philosophy to heart, with response very similar to Eminence in their bass drivers, which is a departure for a European company.

[bremen]

On 12/08/2024 at 22:43, agedhorse said:

Only if you choose the wrong FOH guys...

You can choose?

[bremen]

On 13/08/2024 at 00:36, Stub Mandrel said:

 Guitar speakers are expected to 'break up' or at least strongly colour the sound when driven hard.

So are bass speakers, Shirley? The ones I like are, anyway

[jazzyvee]

On 11/08/2024 at 18:21, agedhorse said:

Another ridiculous urban myth that I’ve never seen at a pro gig ever. 

I don't doubt there is a chance it could be an urban myth, though it's a new idea to me. My gear sounds great as it is set up for gigs. It was mentioned on FB and i posted here just to get some responses from more knowledgeable bass players regarding the pro/cons of micing the port.

I have never seen it done at any gig pro or otherwise either, and personally I have no interest in using that method.👍🏾🎶

[agedhorse]

3 hours ago, bremen said:

You can choose?

Yes, often (or usually at the level I work at) you can. 

 

3 hours ago, bremen said:

So are bass speakers, Shirley? The ones I like are, anyway

The breakup in guitar speakers is quite different, and the cones/surrounds are designed differently in order to enhance the desired characteristics for different guitar styles. 
 

You won’t find the same types of cones and surrounds intended for breakup in bass speakers. The side effects are generally detrimental to what most bass players are looking for. 

[bremen]

Ah well, we're in different leagues. The Sunday League post punk noisers I play with get what we're given, and enjoy the sound and smell of dying loudspeakers.

[agedhorse]

7 minutes ago, bremen said:

Ah well, we're in different leagues. The Sunday League post punk noisers I play with get what we're given, and enjoy the sound and smell of dying loudspeakers.

That's a tough market to earn a living in as a sound guy...

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

14 minutes ago, agedhorse said:

You won’t find the same types of cones and surrounds intended for breakup in bass speakers. The side effects are generally detrimental to what most bass players are looking for. 

Which I alluded to previously. Most guitar drivers have very short xmax, so they'll go into high THD at low volume. Bass players may still want high THD, but not at low volume. Nonetheless most of us wouldn't want the other end of the spectrum, drivers with no midrange bump, typical of PA woofers. This Eminence 2512 strives for response similar to vintage drivers, but with much higher output, as opposed to the B&C 12NDL 76, which doesn't peak in the mids 10dB higher than in the midbass.

[Rob Bisby]

You'd probably be better off rolling the tone off on ya bass or using a LPF