Charles Berthoud

[Count Bassy]

On 06/10/2024 at 20:03, lowdown said:

There are not that many Bassists about, even at the top of the tree like he is, who can hold your attention for nearly six minutes, playing alone and unaccompanied.

 

Didn't hold my attention for anything like 6 minutes.

[lowdown]

6 hours ago, Count Bassy said:

Didn't hold my attention for anything like 6 minutes.

 

 

Yeah, probably not everyone's cup of tea, and I should have stated, 'hold my attention'.

It's a shame really, because the Cadenza/ending at 07:37 is pretty spectacular.

[BigRedX]

I've started typing this post several times over the past couple of weeks and if I decide to hit the "Submit Reply" button this time, I think I have managed to articulate what I want the say properly...

 

For me I just don't find any of the music he plays in the videos posted in this thread interesting enough to to be enjoyable for more than about 30 seconds. In that time I can appreciate the technique and skill required, but as a composer and arranger, from my PoV the music itself is the important thing not how you play it. I acknowledge that this is simply a difference of taste between myself and Mr Berthoud, and if he is able to make a living out of doing this then good on him.

 

However a couple of things struck me. Would he seem as impressive without the video? Take away the visual aspects that show the technique and all you are left with is the music and does it stand up on its own to be worthy of our attention? I'm not sure it does. And that leads on to my second point. In many ways the technique is only impressive because his choice of instrument adds and extra level of difficulty to the playing (and Mr Berthoud is not alone in this). Would we be as impressed on GuitarChat or KeyboardChat if he was playing those same pieces on guitar or keyboard. Again I think not. I spent a lot of time in the 80s and 90s trying to play things on particular instruments that would be not only better suited to other instruments, but would be a lot easier to do too! And guess what? The typical audience member at my gigs really wasn't that impressed by what my band(s) were trying to do. All they cared about was, did the songs sound any good, and with the benefit of hindsight, they would almost definitely have sounded better played on more appropriate instruments.

 

Mr Berthoud's playing technique is remarkable, but for the most part it is technique for its own sake, and from my PoV there is very little big or clever about deliberately making life harder for yourself...

[tauzero]

The videos are for entertainment, and they demonstrate what it is possible to do with a bass. It is exactly because it's not the ideal instrument that it provides entertainment. You could stick all the notes into a sequencer and press play and it would produce the same tune, but it wouldn't be in the slightest impressive.

 

As John F Kennedy said, "We choose to play bass on Youtube and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard; because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one we intend to win, and the others, too."

[Leonard Smalls]

1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

technique for its own sake

Funnily enough, that's how Franz Liszt became (arguably!) the first rock star!

And what about Ravel's left handed piano concerto?

Folks have always liked spectacle, which is what Mr Berthoud is providing. And as for his music, I find that far more entertaining than the usual average stuff (me included!) I see at most gigs!

Though I rarely sided with those who thought Mozart's music had "too many notes"...

[diskwave]

He has extraordinary dexterity, musicality and poise and does 'things' on the bass we havent seen before. But how about if he'd studied say the Cello?... Would the cello world be drooling and fawning over him.... I doubt it. In the world of classical music he would be just another schooled accomplished musician ready to join any top orchestra on the planet.

Thing is where will this all end? We have all grown up understanding, lead, support and rythmn. Maybe Im too old and funky (in a good way..haha) but I simply cannot see how bass will ever be taken seriously as a lead instrument after all isnt it simply ..... to bassy?

 

[Mykesbass]

29 minutes ago, diskwave said:

He has extraordinary dexterity, musicality and poise and does 'things' on the bass we havent seen before. But how about if he'd studied say the Cello?... Would the cello world be drooling and fawning over him.... I doubt it. In the world of classical music he would be just another schooled accomplished musician ready to join any top orchestra on the planet.

Thing is where will this all end? We have all grown up understanding, lead, support and rythmn. Maybe Im too old and funky (in a good way..haha) but I simply cannot see how bass will ever be taken seriously as a lead instrument after all isnt it simply ..... to bassy?

 

He covers this nicely in one of the videos posted here (sorry can't remember which one), and it is a very interesting point. He tried playing this solo wizzardry live and discovered there was no audience for it. However, after a few Youtube videos he found there was an online fanbase, and has very cleverly built this. 

 

As a fellow 'old and funky in a good way' I'm pleased to see that there are alternative routes to an audience for talented players such as Charles.

Edited October 8 by Mykesbass

[SimonK]

3 hours ago, BigRedX said:

I've started typing this post several times over the past couple of weeks and if I decide to hit the "Submit Reply" button this time, I think I have managed to articulate what I want the say properly...

 

For me I just don't find any of the music he plays in the videos posted in this thread interesting enough to to be enjoyable for more than about 30 seconds. In that time I can appreciate the technique and skill required, but as a composer and arranger, from my PoV the music itself is the important thing not how you play it. I acknowledge that this is simply a difference of taste between myself and Mr Berthoud, and if he is able to make a living out of doing this then good on him.

 

However a couple of things struck me. Would he seem as impressive without the video? Take away the visual aspects that show the technique and all you are left with is the music and does it stand up on its own to be worthy of our attention? I'm not sure it does. And that leads on to my second point. In many ways the technique is only impressive because his choice of instrument adds and extra level of difficulty to the playing (and Mr Berthoud is not alone in this). Would we be as impressed on GuitarChat or KeyboardChat if he was playing those same pieces on guitar or keyboard. Again I think not. I spent a lot of time in the 80s and 90s trying to play things on particular instruments that would be not only better suited to other instruments, but would be a lot easier to do too! And guess what? The typical audience member at my gigs really wasn't that impressed by what my band(s) were trying to do. All they cared about was, did the songs sound any good, and with the benefit of hindsight, they would almost definitely have sounded better played on more appropriate instruments.

 

Mr Berthoud's playing technique is remarkable, but for the most part it is technique for its own sake, and from my PoV there is very little big or clever about deliberately making life harder for yourself...

 

Ironically, of course, this goes slightly against the earlier criticism that someone else made that he used multiple cameras/takes to look more accomplished than he is. I think what you are identifying here is that he is a performer, and while solo bass may not be many of our first choices for listening to, I would absolutely go to one of his gigs and see him play this stuff live as it is a real performance art! I have a similar relationship to blues music - a bit irritating to listen to but my god, seeing Eric Clapton and Joe Bonamassa at the Albert Hall was a life highlight for me (OK Berthoud is not quite up there yet but he's heading that way)!

[lotte]

I'm very much a beginner on bass (not that I play any other instruments) and so maybe come at this from a slightly different angle. I only saw the below video today as it was in Youtube's suggested video list and I think I recognised his name from seeing it as a thread title here. It's clearly not 'music' in the sense that you'd buy it and listen to it in the normal way (on a hifi/in the car/walking the dog) as you might the original track but I found it enjoyable on it's own merits.

 

I can also see seasoned pros being frustrated by the parlour games that are clearly on show earning respect, popularity, and a good few quid from those of us who perhaps don't know any better. However, I would say that I found it inspiring in a way that I'm not sure I can put my finger on. I've no desire to be able to replicate it for its own sake but, watching the 'show' made me think about how the instrument is just a means to an end: there's a fluidity and a naturalness to the playing, switching of styles etc. that opens up the instrument from a machine that I currently try to manipulate to have a reasonable playalong with All My Loving, say, to one where it's just an extension of an idea in my head. I know he probably spent ages comimg up with and rehearsing what he does but the naturalness is what inspires.

 

For all those who have cups of tea that are not him then I have a feeling this might be the worst example I could have picked for a first view:

 

 

[SimonK]

3 minutes ago, lotte said:

I'm very much a beginner on bass (not that I play any other instruments) and so maybe come at this from a slightly different angle. I only saw the below video today as it was in Youtube's suggested video list and I think I recognised his name from seeing it as a thread title here. It's clearly not 'music' in the sense that you'd buy it and listen to it in the normal way (on a hifi/in the car/walking the dog) as you might the original track but I found it enjoyable on it's own merits.

 

I can also see seasoned pros being frustrated by the parlour games that are clearly on show earning respect, popularity, and a good few quid from those of us who perhaps don't know any better. However, I would say that I found it inspiring in a way that I'm not sure I can put my finger on. I've no desire to be able to replicate it for its own sake but, watching the 'show' made me think about how the instrument is just a means to an end: there's a fluidity and a naturalness to the playing, switching of styles etc. that opens up the instrument from a machine that I currently try to manipulate to have a reasonable playalong with All My Loving, say, to one where it's just an extension of an idea in my head. I know he probably spent ages comimg up with and rehearsing what he does but the naturalness is what inspires.

 

For all those who have cups of tea that are not him then I have a feeling this might be the worst example I could have picked for a first view:

 

 

 

...forget the listenability - think how cool it would be to see him play this live! And it looks like we can in January: https://www.ticketmaster.co.uk/bernth-charles-berthoud-tickets/artist/5456809

[tauzero]

Well, there's always going to be a gallimaufry of opinion on Charles as there's so many aspects to it.

[Stub Mandrel]

3 hours ago, tauzero said:

Well, there's always going to be a gallimaufry of opinion on Charles as there's so many aspects to it.

 

Indeed.

[Beedster]

3 hours ago, SimonK said:

 

...forget the listenability - think how cool it would be to see him play this live! And it looks like we can in January: https://www.ticketmaster.co.uk/bernth-charles-berthoud-tickets/artist/5456809

I might be up for that thanks for posting 👍

[BigRedX]

19 hours ago, SimonK said:

 

Ironically, of course, this goes slightly against the earlier criticism that someone else made that he used multiple cameras/takes to look more accomplished than he is. I think what you are identifying here is that he is a performer, and while solo bass may not be many of our first choices for listening to, I would absolutely go to one of his gigs and see him play this stuff live as it is a real performance art! I have a similar relationship to blues music - a bit irritating to listen to but my god, seeing Eric Clapton and Joe Bonamassa at the Albert Hall was a life highlight for me (OK Berthoud is not quite up there yet but he's heading that way)!

 

13 hours ago, lotte said:

I can also see seasoned pros being frustrated by the parlour games that are clearly on show earning respect, popularity, and a good few quid from those of us who perhaps don't know any better. However, I would say that I found it inspiring in a way that I'm not sure I can put my finger on. I've no desire to be able to replicate it for its own sake but, watching the 'show' made me think about how the instrument is just a means to an end: there's a fluidity and a naturalness to the playing, switching of styles etc. that opens up the instrument from a machine that I currently try to manipulate to have a reasonable playalong with All My Loving, say, to one where it's just an extension of an idea in my head. I know he probably spent ages comimg up with and rehearsing what he does but the naturalness is what inspires.

 

I often forget that on here I am in a minority as someone who is first and foremost a composer and not a bassist. For me being able to play instruments is a means to an end (making it easier to compose) and not the end in itself. I'm only a bassist insomuch as it is my preferred instrument when playing live with other musicians. For me technique is irrelevant unless a lack of it gets in the way of being able to perform the songs live. If I come up with something that I don't have the ability to play consistently well there are a number of options available to me that don't involve having to spend hundreds of hours working on my playing technique. If necessary in the studio I can build up my "performance" out of shorter easy to manage/play chunks, or even note by note if that's what is required to get the result I want for the song. For live I use a non-standard tuning on one of my basses because it makes several of our songs much, much easier to play.

 

In a way that's what bothers me about Mr Berthoud because IMO he has made things deliberately difficult for himself, starting with the choice of instrument on which to perform his "feats". It makes for engaging viewing, but without the visual component would it be as impressive?

 

Most of the artists I like are probably fairly average as musicians, but the magic happens when they play together and compose, not showy technical dexterity, and for me the important thing is how memorable I find the song, not how accomplished as musicians the people playing it are.

[ThirteenDevils]

An English explorer was trekking through a remote jungle with a local wise man he had hired as a guide. Two days into their journey, far from civilization, they began to hear the faint, slow beating of drums in the distance.

 

Dum. Dum. Dum. Dum.

 

The Englishman said to the wise man, “Is that anything to worry about?”

 

“No,” said the wise man, “Drums not bad. Only bad when drums stop.”

 

As they pushed farther into the jungle, the drumming gradually grew louder and faster.

 

DUM-pum. DUM-pum. DUM-pum. DUM-pum.

 

The Englishman felt uneasy and prodded the guide, “Are you quite sure that's all right?”

 

“Yes,” the wise man assured him, “Drums not bad. But when drums stop...very bad.”

 

Farther in, wading through the thickets and bogs of the deepest, darkest jungle, they could hear the drumming becoming more urgent.

 

BUM-chika-chika. BUM-chika-chika. BUM-chika-chika.

 

Before long the drumming had surrounded them, sounding mere inches away, the deafening rhythm accelerating to a frantic pace.

 

BUM-bakka-chika-chika-BUM-bakka-chika-chika BUM-bakka-

 

Now gripped with mortal fear, the Englishman's wide eyes darted frantically in all directions, his heart racing, his body pouring sweat, when all at once the drumming ceased.

 

...chika-chika BOOOM.

 

Then silence.

 

Utterly panic-stricken, the Englishman gushed, “My God, what happens now!?”

 

The wise man slumped his shoulders, hung his head sadly

, and moaned, “Now...bass solo.”

[SimonK]

5 hours ago, ThirteenDevils said:

An English explorer was trekking through a remote jungle with a local wise man he had hired as a guide. Two days into their journey, far from civilization, they began to hear the faint, slow beating of drums in the distance.

 

Dum. Dum. Dum. Dum.

 

The Englishman said to the wise man, “Is that anything to worry about?”

 

“No,” said the wise man, “Drums not bad. Only bad when drums stop.”

 

As they pushed farther into the jungle, the drumming gradually grew louder and faster.

 

DUM-pum. DUM-pum. DUM-pum. DUM-pum.

 

The Englishman felt uneasy and prodded the guide, “Are you quite sure that's all right?”

 

“Yes,” the wise man assured him, “Drums not bad. But when drums stop...very bad.”

 

Farther in, wading through the thickets and bogs of the deepest, darkest jungle, they could hear the drumming becoming more urgent.

 

BUM-chika-chika. BUM-chika-chika. BUM-chika-chika.

 

Before long the drumming had surrounded them, sounding mere inches away, the deafening rhythm accelerating to a frantic pace.

 

BUM-bakka-chika-chika-BUM-bakka-chika-chika BUM-bakka-

 

Now gripped with mortal fear, the Englishman's wide eyes darted frantically in all directions, his heart racing, his body pouring sweat, when all at once the drumming ceased.

 

...chika-chika BOOOM.

 

Then silence.

 

Utterly panic-stricken, the Englishman gushed, “My God, what happens now!?”

 

The wise man slumped his shoulders, hung his head sadly

, and moaned, “Now...bass solo.”

 

Ah yes - related to the reason why good psychologists always bring a bass to difficult therapy sessions - everyone starts to talk during a bass solo!

[diskwave]

6 hours ago, BigRedX said:

Most of the artists I like are probably fairly average as musicians, but the magic happens when they play together and compose, not showy technical dexterity, and for me the important thing is how memorable I find the song, not how accomplished as musicians the people playing it are.

This. I love a lot of classical music but I dislike a lot of it too. There are some very famous pieces which I have little time for at all... why? Melody. If I cant hear a cracking melody in a tune then its just white noise to me. And to be fair, quite a lot of out internet brethren who demo are just showing how well they know the fretboard. Knowing the fretboard inside out does not maketh the tune... or words to that effect.

[Stub Mandrel]

I think what nakes him stand out, besides tech ability, are his skills as an arranger.

 

He takes pieces and arranges them to be played polyphonically on bass very successfully in that the end results are pleasing to hear.

[gjones]

I saw a video of him explaining that he spends a long time perfecting the pieces he records for his videos, then instantly forgets them once they're recorded.

 

He actually said he used to play in a country and western band.........  I'd have paid to see one of those gigs.

[OliverBlackman]

19 minutes ago, gjones said:

I saw a video of him explaining that he spends a long time perfecting the pieces he records for his videos, then instantly forgets them once they're recorded.

Funnily enough this is how I learn music. I’d love to retain the memory but cannot these days like I used to.

[SimonK]

Here we go - "Escape the Internet" tour - I hope it works for them - it's a sort of 2020s version of G3!

 

 

[Russ]

22 minutes ago, SimonK said:

Here we go - "Escape the Internet" tour - I hope it works for them - it's a sort of 2020s version of G3!

 

 

I'd quite like to hear a whole album from these three. Berthoud holds his own here, he gets a solo, and some of the harmony parts him and Bernth are doing are fantastic. Shame Ola is kinda in the background of this one, although he did get the first solo.  

[OliverBlackman]

Just now, Russ said:

I'd quite like to hear a whole album from these three. Berthoud holds his own here, he gets a solo, and some of the harmony parts him and Bernth are doing are fantastic. Shame Ola is kinda in the background of this one, although he did get the first solo.  

You see I didn’t mind it as a showcase of ability. But I couldn’t enjoy that format for more than 5 minutes. It’d be interesting how they manage to change up the narrative of 3 guys soloing for a whole show.

[ghostwheel]

9 hours ago, Russ said:

Shame Ola is kinda in the background of this one, although he did get the first solo.  

But it's Ola who makes them sound as a band.

At least, it feels like that.

[Hellzero]

You know, I've seen a lot of these bands live, and if there's no melody or a huge sense of fun and entertaining, it simply won't work.

 

Freak Kitchen were masters at it, just like the Mörglbl Trio.

 

Steve Vai had a broom in his derrière.

 

Joe Satriani was totally non communicative and 3 hours of me, myself and I is a bit too much.

 

Terry Bozzio was impossible to see behind his 15 meters long drum set.

 

Alex Skolnick was great, but the band was a bit dated.

 

And don't get me started with fusion bands...

 

So I guess Charles knows all this to give a great show and maybe I'll be there if they show up quite locally.

 

PS: The worst concert I've ever seen in this genre, apart from the Luxemburg's jazz conservatory teachers gig, was Stanley Clarke with Al di Meola and Jean-Luc Ponty, which was just a showoffs showcase.

Edited October 19 by Hellzero