Is running a band really worth it?

[Mickeyboro]

Recently I have (so my wife tells me) been very bad company (no pun intended) as the band I lead has been running into problems.

 

It seems the hassles of everyday management have soured the enjoyment of the performances, and part of me would just like to turn up and play, not giving a thought to future bookings, band availability, money, egotistical lead singers, moaning drummers, stroppy guitarists…

 

Maybe I should set up a poll!

 

M

[martin8708]

You are truly blessed if you can find 3-4 fellow musicians with same commitment/ drive /ambition and musical taste as you have .

I have done over 10 years of duo work with great acoustic guitarist / singer , no drummer / no keys / no second guitarist . 
We go in , set up , gig , break down and we’re home like a well oiled machine . 
From previous experience, being in a band can be like being in 3 dysfunctional marriages, so many issues of health / family issues / commitments/ learning the bloody songs / the list goes on .

[itu]

Sometimes I hate the songs or arrangements (and bills), but I love every Thursday when we start our weekly rehearsals. It's the door to unknown. The feel after every session with the group (or few side projects) is something I can not find or get anywhere else.

 

Gigs are an extra: it's nice to share something we have created together.

[casapete]

I feel your pain Mick. For years I was in a successful function band, all better players

than myself ( 8 piece band)  but most of them with problems that reared their head on nearly

every gig. We could have definitely got to a much higher level if only people could control 

their personal problems - drink, drugs, other work, egos, constant moaning about everything etc.

They just couldn't see what a good situation we were in already compared to a lot of other bands.

 

In the end I couldn’t stand it any longer, and jumped ship to another band, which couldn’t 

have been more the opposite. Lovely people, well organised and fun to be with. We did really

well and I loved every minute. 
 

Maybe it’s time to break from your band and look for a new direction, something where the

running of it is on a more equal basis? That’s if your current problems with the band can’t

be overcome or achieve a compromise? If it’s starting to affect your good nature then it

sounds like changes will need to be made. 

[TimR]

If it's your band that you put together, hired all the musicians and the original premise hasn't changed then you need to sack the ones causing issues.

 

If, on the other hand, you have defaulted into the band leader position because the rest of the band are flakey, then leave and join another band. 

 

The third option would be that the band has just drifted into being something that no one actually agreed it would be. In which case, you all sit down, discuss what commitment levels you have, what gigs you want to play and what songs are and aren't working. Basically discuss all the issues and see where the band is. And then leave or have a more realistic expectation of what the band actually is and where it's going. 

[Beedster]

Leadership in any space not only requires a very specific skillset on the part of the leader, but also a group of people prepared to be led. In my experience - and in contrast with other environments I know well such as science, business, and sport - many musicians do not fall into the ‘prepared to be led’ category. In short, a band leader has to chose their musicians not on musical talent alone but on a number of other factors. I was playing bass at a vocalist audition 20 years ago, one of the applicants was incredible, but the band leader said ‘No way’. Having seen him down two cans of 1664 before his slot, he was not prepared to take the risk that the guy was going to bring alcohol problems to gigs. Seemed harsh to me at the time given nearly all musicians I know like to drink around gigs, but for the BL it was a simple and almost certainly correct call. 

 

I’m watching this thread with sincere interest as I’m about to take a step into band leadership….. 🤔

[BigRedX]

As I always say when someone starts one of these threads. If you feel strongly enough about the situation to have posted in a publicly visible part of an internet forum, then you've probably also made up your mind that either you or the problematic band members need to go.

[Lozz196]

2 hours ago, Beedster said:

Leadership in any space not only requires a very specific skillset on the part of the leader, but also a group of people prepared to be led. In my experience - and in contrast with other environments I know well such as science, business, and sport - many musicians do not fall into the ‘prepared to be led’ category. In short, a band leader has to chose their musicians not on musical talent alone but on a number of other factors. 

 

Very good point there. In my last band both the drummer and I were 100% committed but it was the singer/guitarist who led, we were 100% with him but neither of us were the types with the drive to lead, but we were always in full agreement with him, it wasn`t "his vision" it was all of ours, he was voicing and leading on behalf of us. Thinking about some of the people I`ve been in bands with that band wouldn`t have achieved anywhere near what it has if they had been involved. 

[Kitsto]

Bands are very peculiar. The best ones start off as friends first (U2 realised this when they almost came apart while recording Achtung Baby - it was Brian Eno who intervened and made them see the light).

 

Springsteen in his excellent autobio discusses how he ended up being dad, friend, boss and banker to members of the E Street Band and what a nightmare it was (he had an altercation with one member who wanted more pay to which Bruce said: "You want to see the highest paid musician on the planet who does what you do? Go look in the mirror - it's already you!"). It's funny how bad at life a lot of pro musicians are.

 

A friend of mine (gtr) runs his band with the singist - and they regularly chuck out the others. He asked me to join. Er, no thanks.

 

A happy co-op is so hard to achieve that maybe being like Bruce or my mate is the only way to do it. If you do stumble into a happy band then cherish it.

Edited August 15 by Kitsto

[Happy Jack]

It's not often I agree with every single comment made on a thread but this one is currently ticking all my boxes. 

 

@Silvia Bluejay and I jointly manage (for want of a better word) all three bands I play in. We get all the gigs for all three bands, we supply the PA and lighting and cameras at every gig, we provide the rehearsal space and organise the diary, we do all the marketing and social media. My long-gone Mum used to say to me, "The more you do for other people, the more they'll let you do." She wasn't wrong. In this environment, inevitably (almost) all the others just sit back and let us do the work whilst displaying the impressive range of issues catalogued above by others.

 

In addition I spent my entire career in managerial positions so I'm not completely clueless when it comes to steering an organisation, plus I don't suffer fools gladly and I'm not scared of confrontation. That means I end up running HR as well as being CEO. 🙄 When one of my bands needs to part company with someone, it invariably falls to me to do the dirty.

 

So I should give it up? Walk away? Join someone else's band and let them do all this? No chance! There are compensations for all these problems ...

 

If you want a job done well then do it yourself. Silvie and I have no diary clashes between bands because we control the diary. We don't have to tolerate an appalling mix or excessive volume at gigs because we control the PA. We don't have to play gigs at shit-holes (well, not often) because we choose which gigs we get. We don't waste time & money on rehearsing at smelly, rubbish studios because we have one right by our back door.

 

I could easily list all the things wrong with all my bandmates (and it would be a long list) but I'm always acutely aware that they could then make up a list of all my failings (and it might well be the same length). 

 

@Mickeyboro (and for that matter @Beedster) the issue isn't how awful band leadership is. It's whether the advantages of band leadership in any given environment outweigh the drawbacks. For me, the answer remains a definite 'Yes' and long may that continue. 

[casapete]

I think the two posts ( Lozz and Kitsto) above nail it really - a band needs someone to lead / navigate it  but must have the support of everyone else too, with agreed aims and how to achieve them.

(I’ll shut up now, am beginning to sound like some corporate training tw*t) 😆

Edited August 15 by casapete

[Beedster]

3 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

It's not often I agree with every single comment made on a thread but this one is currently ticking all my boxes. 

 

@Silvia Bluejay and I jointly manage (for want of a better word) all three bands I play in. We get all the gigs for all three bands, we supply the PA and lighting and cameras at every gig, we provide the rehearsal space and organise the diary, we do all the marketing and social media. My long-gone Mum used to say to me, "The more you do for other people, the more they'll let you do." She wasn't wrong. In this environment, inevitably (almost) all the others just sit back and let us do the work whilst displaying the impressive range of issues catalogued above by others.

 

In addition I spent my entire career in managerial positions so I'm not completely clueless when it comes to steering an organisation, plus I don't suffer fools gladly and I'm not scared of confrontation. That means I end up running HR as well as being CEO. 🙄 When one of my bands needs to part company with someone, it invariably falls to me to do the dirty.

 

So I should give it up? Walk away? Join someone else's band and let them do all this? No chance! There are compensations for all these problems ...

 

If you want a job done well then do it yourself. Silvie and I have no diary clashes between bands because we control the diary. We don't have to tolerate an appalling mix or excessive volume at gigs because we control the PA. We don't have to play gigs at shit-holes (well, not often) because we choose which gigs we get. We don't waste time & money on rehearsing at smelly, rubbish studios because we have one right by our back door.

 

I could easily list all the things wrong with all my bandmates (and it would be a long list) but I'm always acutely aware that they could then make up a list of all my failings (and it might well be the same length). 

 

@Mickeyboro (and for that matter @Beedster) the issue isn't how awful band leadership is. It's whether the advantages of band leadership in any given environment outweigh the drawbacks. For me, the answer remains a definite 'Yes' and long may that continue. 

 

Not for thr first time this week Jack, I will be looking in your direction for advice! 

[Beedster]

4 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

If you want a job done well then do it yourself. Silvie and I have no diary clashes between bands because we control the diary. We don't have to tolerate an appalling mix or excessive volume at gigs because we control the PA. We don't have to play gigs at shit-holes (well, not often) because we choose which gigs we get. We don't waste time & money on rehearsing at smelly, rubbish studios because we have one right by our back door.

 

 

This is the list of reasons I aim to do the same, there's a time for democracy, but.........

[Cat Burrito]

It depends on the band and the people involved. I used to run all my bands when I was younger and it got to be a pain. Bandmates got ahead in life with better jobs, on the housing ladder earlier and generally getting on with life. All the while, I was mailing out tapes and spending my life on the phone. I also found my band time was admin, not practicing my craft.

 

In recent years, I have mainly played in other people's bands. I don't get final say but I have time to practice and do other things. I currently run a duo and because we are very old mates, we've yet to disagree on anything. I don't think I could run a 4 piece or more as there are too many schedules to juggle. I think the old adage is, if it's not fun, don't do it. Having been playing since the 80s, I have found a way of better managing my time so I am not *just* doing the business side of the band. 

 

I have noticed that when I run things, I am very keen to consult and communicate. I have worked with a handful of dictators and it definitely sets up a band vs the player manager atmosphere. 

[Mykesbass]

2 hours ago, BigRedX said:

As I always say when someone starts one of these threads. If you feel strongly enough about the situation to have posted in a publicly visible part of an internet forum, then you've probably also made up your mind that either you or the problematic band members need to go.

I'm usually in full agreement with your wisdom and advice on here, but I made a decision along these lines only to have a conversation later with a friend who made me regret it. 

 

I fell out with a long term friend/ musical partner with whom we had transitioned our blues covers band to an originals blues-rock band. We fell out over something that seemed at the time irreparable, leading to me walking out.

 

Met up with a pal, drummer with a very well known band from the 80s, still doing the nostalgia circuit every couple of years, who had also just had a bust up with the main man. He thought it may have been the end for him, but he was called the next morning and main man said that the row was because they both cared about the point so much, and that was a good thing.

 

Looking back (there's an unintended clue there) that was exactly what had happened between me and my singer.

[TimR]

49 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

"The more you do for other people, the more they'll let you do."

 

And then you start to resent all the hard work you're doing when no one appears to be pulling their weight.

 

You then have to question whether they're the kind of people you want in your band. 

 

Personally I've been in the band leader situation where everything you do is criticised, no one replies when you ask for availability, people decide they'd rather go to the pub to watch football with their mates than play a gig...

 

Now I play bass, give a bit of feedback when I think it will help but don't get to worried when it's not taken. And make sure I'm available for all practices and gigs and reply as soon as possible when asked. 

 

We have a gig on Sunday. No one can practice this week. We had a practice a week ago and one about a month ago. The WhatsApp group is very quiet. Hopefully we can pull it off but I'm expecting a load of "What time are we on?", "How long are else playing?" Type questions. Which I'll let someone else answer, mainly to avoid filling the chat with lots of different answers. 

 

 

[chris_b]

I've been in bands run by autocratic and unpleasant dictators through to benevolent nice guys, but they all wanted the same thing, to make the decisions.

 

If the band is good enough then I'm happy to play with any of those personality types and let them steer the ship.

 

IMO I do one thing well and it's not organisation!!

[12stringbassist]

My band's done 8 years now.
There are personality clashes from one corner of the band. Also some performance issues.

I book all of the gigs (about 120 this year), do the website and media, carry the PA cabs and set the PA up and to be honest I am tired of dealing with inept pub landlords. We have talked about knocking it on the head early next year if someone doesn't improve. If we stop, I don't think I will carry on playing.
 

Edited August 15 by 12stringbassist

[bass_dinger]

2 hours ago, TimR said:

Now I play bass, give a bit of feedback when I think it will help but don't get to worried when it's not taken. And make sure I'm available for all practices and gigs and reply as soon as possible when asked. 

This is what I should be aiming for,  I now see.

 

No band leader wants an argument.  Instead, they want supportive capable people that will turn up and get the job done. 

 

I find that the most difficult aspect about being in a band is to care, but not to mind, about the others.

[neepheid]

Both my bands are collaborative - everyone mucks in with the setting up and tearing down.  I'm not super front foot about getting gigs, but I organise and print out set lists and in the originals band seem to have become chief artwork provider - which is fine because my songwriting has taken a major back seat lately, just don't think I've got that much to say that worth putting to music.

 

No-one's slacking, everyone's doing their homework, there's no true central "leader" figure in either band, we keep each other honest.  Is this weird?

[Happy Jack]

1 hour ago, 12stringbassist said:

My band's done 8 years now.
There are personality clashes from one corner of the band. Also some performance issues.

I book all of the gigs (about 120 this year), do the website and media, carry the PA cabs and set the PA up and to be honest I am tired of dealing with inept pub landlords. We have talked about knocking it on the head early next year if someone doesn't improve. If we stop, I don't think I will carry on playing.
 

I'm guessing there's a lot left unsaid there.

 

On the face of it, 'twould be a sad fate for a 120 gigs a year outfit if it folded without some very substantial reasons. If that leads to you ceasing playing altogether, then so much the worse.

 

I hope it won't come to that.

[musicbassman]

In my idealistic youth I thought that everyone working together in a band should be equals.

But over the years and many, many bands I realised that some people were always going to have the dominant personalities, like it or not. That's human beings for you. A bandleader can enjoy having the final say, but this also means the buck stops with them if their decisions result in failure. This includes choosing new band members. There's no one else to blame.

 

[dave_bass5]

17 hours ago, Mickeyboro said:

Recently I have (so my wife tells me) been very bad company (no pun intended) as the band I lead has been running into problems.

 

It seems the hassles of everyday management have soured the enjoyment of the performances, and part of me would just like to turn up and play, not giving a thought to future bookings, band availability, money, egotistical lead singers, moaning drummers, stroppy guitarists…

 

Maybe I should set up a poll!

 

M

Been felling the same about bands recently. My main band has been a real struggle, although we have got to the point where things are a lot calmer and everyone just gets on with it (could be because ive taken a back seat).. Ive had many nights of lost sleep over it though. I was in a band for 15 years where we were all on the same page and never agreed or had to tell anyone else what to do etc. I. miss that. 

I recently wanted to get back in to bass and join an existing band where ei cold just turn up and play. I thought I had, but they were so unorganised I ended up quickly taking charge, and didn't like that. Back to the sleepless nights. When the main guy left us I felt it was up to me to keep things going....I didnt bother. First time since I started playing that I wasn't bothered about a band I was in. 

I love playing in bands where everyone knows the songs, wants to be there, has done their homework etc. That wasnt it and I resented it, which soured things for me. 

[cetera]

There are different personality traits involved. In my experience, these are often:

Practical
"Whatever..."

Dreamer

Crazy

 

I consider myself the 1st trait and ran an internationally successful tribute for 25 years. I considered distance, profile, costs, earning potential, family, and numerous other things when booking shows. A fellow founding member sadly fit a combination of the latter two traits. The two other band members fit the 2nd.

 

I left in the end as I felt the other founding member was scheming against me with the other two on the fence behind him. I was right, but they continued with a replacement and the other founding member taking over. They haven't played internationally since, their reputation on the scene has suffered and even the two 'sheep' members ended up leaving too as they couldn't deal with his controlling, impractical ways.... 

Sometimes you just need more people on your wavelength or decide to move on to different and often better things.
I can't be bothered to organise gigs etc anymore. It's a long and often thankless task, particularly with the lack of appreciation of band members. I now just do good deps, have just joined a local covers band with 3 guys for beers, laughs & pocket money.... and I leave myself open to bigger opportunities (like my 5 week Euro tour last year with a US blues artist). It makes for a less stressful experience....

[Beedster]

3 minutes ago, cetera said:

There are different personality traits involved. In my experience, these are often:

Practical
"Whatever..."

Dreamer

Crazy

 

I consider myself the 1st trait and ran an internationally successful tribute for 25 years. I considered distance, profile, costs, earning potential, family, and numerous other things when booking shows. A fellow founding member sadly fit a combination of the latter two traits. The two other band members fit the 2nd.

 

I left in the end as I felt the other founding member was scheming against me with the other two on the fence behind him. I was right, but they continued with a replacement and the other founding member taking over. They haven't played internationally since, their reputation on the scene has suffered and even the two 'sheep' members ended up leaving too as they couldn't deal with his controlling, impractical ways.... 

Sometimes you just need more people on your wavelength or decide to move on to different and often better things.
I can't be bothered to organise gigs etc anymore. It's a long and often thankless task, particularly with the lack of appreciation of band members. I now just do good deps, have just joined a local covers band with 3 guys for beers, laughs & pocket money.... and I leave myself open to bigger opportunities (like my 5 week Euro tour last year with a US blues artist). It makes for a less stressful experience....

 

Yep, In my experience.....

Practical = bass player
Whatever = keys

Dreamer = singist

Crazy = drums

 

I'd add.....

Self-centred = guitarist