A bow is a bow is a bow, right?

[Sambrook]

Apologies if this is well trodden ground - I am new enough to double bass to think like the title of this topic. The price range of bows is astonishing, so what are the things that make a 'good' bow?

 

...I await your instruction...

[NickA]

I used to think bows were unimportant ... then I tried a £1000 one instead of the basic wood one I'd had for 30 years, revelation.  So then got to thinking about my cello bow which I'd had for 45 years.  I got a shop to send me 6 bows around the £1000 mark ... all better, all different. I decided to buy a carbon arcus T4 which out performed the wooden bows at that price.  But back in the shop I asked to try the £1300 T5;  not just incrementally better but definitely better so I bought that .. I didn't dare try the £1600 T6.  Now I'm wondering about trading my £1000 bass bow in for a better one.

 

They really do make a difference.  And they need to be suited to your bass.  A dark bass might need a brighter bow etc etc

 

...and down the rabbit hole we go.

 

What makes a "good" one is what feels best in your hand and makes the sound you want.  And that may change as your playing develops.

 

Beware of fancy woods and precious metals, they put gold trimmings on good expensive bows as a signifier that it's one of their best; but putting gold on a bow doesn't improve it, just ups the price.

 

Rules of thumb:  glass fibre bows are rubbish.  Cheap carbon bow's a bit better, basic "Brazil wood" bows better still, then fancy carbon bows eg from coda and arcus will match or beat any wood bow at the same price.  Then bespoke hand crafted Pernambuco bows from a reputable bow maker ... You're talking £3000+ now.

 

Also bragging rights antique bows from tourte, tubbs, hills, sartory etc ..you're paying for rarity as well as quality then. £10k anyone, £50k?

 

I have right now a gold mounted hand made Pernambuco cello bow that was my dads, valued at around £3k ... it's horrible with my cello.

Edited August 16 by NickA

[Beedster]

A good player will make a poor bow sound amazing, a poor player will do the opposite

[Beedster]

Try a few, Caswells offer them on trial 👍

[NickA]

19 minutes ago, Beedster said:

Try a few, Caswells offer them on trial 👍

I used them for the cello bows. Worked well. My bass bow came from bass bags, they loaned it to me for a month, but had to order it in specially. Caswells had stock in hand.

 

Bowspeed in Bristol are another option.

Edited August 16 by NickA

[Downunderwonder]

I should learn to bow. Too many obstacles at present.

 

My bow is a piece of junk that needs rehairing as it won't hold any rosin or consequently make hardly a sound.

 

I tried a cello bow. My brain is wired lefty a la violin the other way around. Mind blown, did not see that coming.

 

I am flat broke. I could sell an excess bass and buy a nice enough bow, but will my brain properly untangle from backwards violin playing? I would miss my bass.

[zbd1960]

Speaking as a cellist, the only thing to do is try a few. Some people prefer a stick with more spring, others prefer it to be stiffer. Weight and balance point are personal preference. Modern carbon fibre bows compare well with pernambuco bows in the same price range, but it's individual preference. 

[Dazed]

I barely play double bass. I’ve been asked about playing with a band - their wants list included “ a double bass would be brilliant, occasional bowed parts even better” Seriously sickened reading this thread and the costs 😄 the last time I used a bow was 35 years ago and I don’t imagine it was anything decent being it was whatever the college I was at had it hanging around. 
 

Where do you start if you have no idea what you’re looking at?

[hubrad]

22 hours ago, Dazed said:

I barely play double bass. I’ve been asked about playing with a band - their wants list included “ a double bass would be brilliant, occasional bowed parts even better” Seriously sickened reading this thread and the costs 😄 the last time I used a bow was 35 years ago and I don’t imagine it was anything decent being it was whatever the college I was at had it hanging around. 
 

Where do you start if you have no idea what you’re looking at?

A basic bow is way better than no bow. From there you can decide how far you want to take it and in which direction. For occasional parts as long as you're playing the band will be blown away anyway!

Try some if you can. Where is Manchester...ish? I'm north of Bradford if you fancy a trip over sometime. I can show you some differences, plus I do actually have a basic French type one I'd let go for not much.

When I first started on DB I knew I wanted a bow, and bought a pretty basic one in need of a rehair. That got me off the ground until getting a much better one once I knew I was going to use it. Then I got introduced to German bow (different hold) and went down that road.

General consensus seems to be that, in order to get the best out of both bow and instrument, the bow should be valued around 1/3 to 1/2 of the instrument, but that's more for the long term IMHO.

[NickA]

I used a basic wood bow for years before upgrading.  My current bow is worth £1k and the bass is worth £6k to £10k.  No way I'd ever spend £5k on a bow for it.  If I were a much better player with a £25k bass and really in to my classical playing I might shell out £3.5k for a lovely Andrew McGill bow.  Antiques aside, the very best modern bows are around £8000....

 so I really doubt that 30 to 50% figure.

 

You can get something perfectly ok for occasional use for under £100.

[Beedster]

I had a few bows on trial a while back and despite playing bows that retailed at over £1500 preferred one at a quarter of that price, or at least couldn't hear or feel a difference between the two that would warrant my paying four times more than I did    

[hubrad]

It's something I was told 20 plus years ago by someone in violin restoration world. Dunno if things have changed.

I suppose there are bows that we can't tell the difference whereas to some players, just like the old argument about spending more than £x on a bass.

Stands to reason that if an instrument can be different then so can a bow. That thing I was told was along the lines of getting the best out of both instrument and bow. A cheaper bow would work but limit the instrument and vice versa. When I upgraded from basic, I enlisted the help of a friend who doesn't play bowed strings but has excellent ears; he identified the differences straight away, in fact better than I could in playing position.

My most expensive bow is 'only' a few hundreds worth, but it's probably better than I'll ever be. Mind you, I can't help but wonder.. see you all in one of the specialist shops!

[NickA]

People selling stuff will always persuade you to spend more!  And there is no doubt that a brilliant bow will get the most out of your bass ( I'm sure the £7000 arcus S9 would sound ..even..better than my £1000 S3 ) .  When trialing cello bows even my tone deaf wife could hear the differences and we both preferred the same one. But it's diminishing returns when you could spend the money on the bass. 

 

Meanwhile, I'm in the process of helping my mum sell my late dad's 'cello, which is with an expert restorer and will eventually sell for up to £100k ( it's what pro's instruments are worth these days, plus "bragging rights" antique value).  The restorers were shocked that dad's best bow was that (not brilliant) £3k one and that he usually used a £1500 dorfler.  They expected he'd have a lovely antique to go with the cello.  However, the very best modern bows don't generally top £8000.  You can spend £25k, if the guy accepts your commission, to have something custom made by Benoit rolland and have a bow like yo yo ma uses on his £3m Montagna and priceless Stradivarius!

 

Set a budget, try a few, expect to go a bit over budget.  But most of all get something that feels nice, is in good condition and makes a sound you like.

[zbd1960]

Same in the cello world. When I bought my first cello, I asked to try a range of bows priced (in 2011) between £100 and £1,500 and for them to not tell me which was which. It ended up being a close call between a Coda carbon fibre bow and a Dorfler pernambuco one. They were both around the £400 mark and I ended up with the Dorfler at £450.

 

I have a different instrument now, a German 'workshop' instrument from about 1900 current value around £6k. I did think about getting a better bow a while ago, but nothing I tried up to £1,500 seemed to be a worthwhile improvement. After £1,500 prices rocket upwards rapidly. And forget getting an antique WE Hill - a 1930s one currently for sale at £6,000 the C19th are much more...  

[Owen]

Bows. A whole world of pain which has already been alluded to. I never believed it. Then I tried a really good bow. Then I believed it. 

 

Another aspect which has not yet been touched on is strings which bow well and strings which do not bow well. More pain. A really good bow playing Spirocores will never make that lush sound we hear in our heads. There are so many variables!

 

Sorry. 

[Bloopdad1]

Bows, don't get me started...! 

 

Invest in the stick.

 

Remember that a bow is the instruments amplifier. 

 

You'll only ever get 10% of what a bass can do just by plucking it. 

 

Get about 5 bows on trial, take the price tags off them and play them for a week - often it's the second cheapest bow will be the one that speaks to you. 

 

Go for something around 140g to 150g. Slow down your bow to really drag the tone out of the instrument. 

(this is mega important - light bows around 132g are pants). 

 

The stick needs to be strong enough to draw out a proper fff and flexible enough to fly around (spiccato, ricochet, double take etc) without flying off the string. 

 

Warm left hand vibrato helps with bow intensity. 

 

Remember to relax your forearm and bow from your shoulder. If you feel aching in your hand (thumb base) you're doing it wrong. 

 

Don't forget about rosin... Get a pot of Kolstiene all weather, Nymans or Carlsson (and learn how to apply it properly! 😂) 

 

Get your soundpost set up correctly - it makes a MASSIVE difference to how the strings respond to the bow.

 

I've been playing in pro orchestras for 35yrs and it's still a bloody mystery! 

 

I could go on....  😂 

 

Most important is to not expect to much too soon and just have fun. 

 

[richh]

If you do get a high value one, which ones are likely to hold value for re-sale, if needed?

[MacDaddy]

As someone new to EUB (4 days in 😆) who would like to try arco, this thread is making me very sad... 😉

[simonlittle]

@richh I’d imagine most good bows hold their value pretty well as long as they’re well-maintained. Antique bows will only go up in value…

Edited August 28 by simonlittle

[Dazed]

How can a stick with some old hair be so expensive…. what’s so magical about good ones? I can understand some sound far better than others - with the right player - but there can’t be that much to them?

[Bloopdad1]

Lol! 😂 

1 hour ago, Dazed said:

How can a stick with some old hair be so expensive…. what’s so magical about good ones? I can understand some sound far better than others - with the right player - but there can’t be that much to them?

Lol! 😂

They literally are magical... A bow is a bow is a bow.... 

They may all look the same but if you play the same bass with 10 different bows you'll get 10 different sounds out of the bass....

A bass is just a structurally supported front table that vibrates, it's the bow that "tells" it exactly how to vibrate. 

It's how you express yourself on the instrument. 

The back, neck, bridge, strings, ribs tailpiece etc are all "disposable" and relatively easy to replace.

The main bits, and to make a decent noise (vibration) is the relationship between the front and the bow. 

I have 3 main bows a very lively one (135g) for Mozart, Bach etc (Baroque) a beefy (148g) but lyrical one for standard orchestral playing and a really heavy, wide but short pit bow (155g) for theatre work/Opera. 

They're all very different. 

But like Harry Potter not every bow (wand) will suit every player... It can take years to find "your bow". 

 

There are some decent new bow makers (Archetiers make bows,  Luthiers make instruments) out there... 

McGill 

Tunnicliffe (retired) 

A Reis 

T Richards. 

All making some decent bows. 

(they also will work with your budget, if you went to Tim Richards and said make me a bow that is springy, good for Brahms / Mendelssohn and about 140g for £500 he would. If you also said make me one for £12k he also would - it would look very much like the £500 one, but it'll just have a MUCH MUCH better quality Perrnambuco stick). 

 

Magic

 

[Bloopdad1]

1 hour ago, Dazed said:

How can a stick with some old hair be so expensive…. what’s so magical about good ones? I can understand some sound far better than others - with the right player - but there can’t be that much to them?

 

 

 

Playing the Bottesini is made so much easier with a quality bow... 

 

It gets interesting about halfway through... 

The bow is an extension of your arm and should require no effort to keep it under control. 

It always has to be in perfect contact with the string to draw out the tone and power the top of the bass to "sing". 

 

As I've said before, plucking a bass is only about 10% of what it can really do... 

[Beedster]

On 26/08/2024 at 22:06, Owen said:

Bows. A whole world of pain which has already been alluded to. I never believed it. Then I tried a really good bow. Then I believed it. 

 

Another aspect which has not yet been touched on is strings which bow well and strings which do not bow well. More pain. A really good bow playing Spirocores will never make that lush sound we hear in our heads. There are so many variables!

 

Sorry. 

 

In a former life I led some psychology research. An interesting study examined the expectation effects of technology. In a double-blind protocol participants completed the performance trials in one of four conditions based around both the quality and the informed expectation of a piece of sports kit. 

 

1. Told high quality given high quality

2. Told high quality given low quality

3. Told low quality given high quality

4. Told low quality given low quality

 

Guess what was the major predictor of both quantative performance and qualitative perception? OK, it wasn't Nobel Prize-winning stuff by any means, but in 20-years of conducting this type of research we nearly alwasy found the same thing; if someone is told that the piece of kit (or drug) they're using is of certain quality, all other things being equal (or in this study, being deliberately unequal) they are more likely to perform in line with that expectation. 

 

Call it the power of suggestion, snake oil, placebo effect, cognitive dissonance, whatever you want, but as soon as you have an expectation of a piece of kit, whether golf club or double bass bow, the way you use it changes in line with that expectation. I've seen people pick up a pre-CBS Fender as if it was a religious artefact, and play it with a tangible sense of awe and deference no doubt aware that an instrument of such quality will pick up and amplify every nuance of their technique. They pick up a Squier on the other hand.....  

[Beedster]

There are differences between a pre-CBS and a Squier and a good quality and cheap bow of course, they're just not as many and not as extreme as our brain leads us to experience 👍

[NickA]

Same with ancient violins and modern masterpieces... you'll not tell the difference really.  I was reading about the "Davidov" Stradivarius cello...it's priceless; it's owned by Louis Vuiton ( of the handbags) but available to Yo Yo Ma, but he usually plays a Montagna. Previously it was owned by Jacqueline DuPre, but she found it unreliable and switched to a modern cello.

 

Old bows won't lose value, modern bows usually will ..simply because they don't really improve with age and because you can replace them with like.  I've got 7 cello bows at the moment, I only need two and would happily sell the others, but no one really wants them.

 

all the more important to buy something you really like and keep it forever!

 

As for pre CBS fenders ..load of bollix; just buy a new one.