Tips for hearing yourself live

[adriansmith247]

So I have been playing for some years now and have decent amps (EA/Acoustic Image) I set the amp on an angled stand so it faces me from the floor. Rev Solo pickup sounds good. I use a 12 for louder gigs but often doesn’t seem to make much difference to using a 10

I like the pu but maybe I need to switch. Tried bass max and shadow but prefer the rev solo for sound quality 

 

Most of the time I can hear myself but I do sometimes play in some loud places with loud musicians where I can’t hear myself even when cranking up the volume. There is only so much volume before feedback with double bass so a bigger amp would not work
 

Some places lack space so my amp is often at my feet

Also I really don’t like it when keyboard players use those Bose array systems and place them at the back behind my bloody head but that is a side issue. (Thinking of getting a petition together for that one) 

 

On the drive home I have started contemplating getting an EUB or magnetic pickup, blocking the f holes or even using a slab bass (but most don’t want that for jazz) 

 

all the local bassists I see have there little 10 inch amps on the floor with no stand or much angle. They seem to cope so maybe it is my hearing

 

any ideas I could try? 

Edited August 23 by adriansmith247

[TheRev]

My first suggestion would be to get your amp off the floor and up to shoulder/head height. I use a keyboard 'X' stand, others use PA speaker tripods. The stand won't have a bigger footprint than the amp itself, so if your amp fits on stage, the amp on a stand will fit on a stage.

Next, use a preamp with a high pass filter (HPD) to take out the sub 80hz rumble that is the main cause of feedback. If you're still getting feedback, then mute/block the f-holes.

You shouldn't need to change your pickup unless the band is stupid loud, and I can't see how a jazz band would get stupid loud.

 

If, however,  the issue is that you just need to hear yourself better, then I'd suggest trying a wired IEM setup using the line out or headphone out from your amp. You can then keep the amp volume low or even dispense with the onstage amp completely and just use a preamp like the Fishman platinum pro to send signal to the PA and to your IEMs

[adriansmith247]

56 minutes ago, TheRev said:

My first suggestion would be to get your amp off the floor and up to shoulder/head height. I use a keyboard 'X' stand, others use PA speaker tripods. The stand won't have a bigger footprint than the amp itself, so if your amp fits on stage, the amp on a stand will fit on a stage.

Next, use a preamp with a high pass filter (HPD) to take out the sub 80hz rumble that is the main cause of feedback. If you're still getting feedback, then mute/block the f-holes.

You shouldn't need to change your pickup unless the band is stupid loud, and I can't see how a jazz band would get stupid loud.

 

If, however,  the issue is that you just need to hear yourself better, then I'd suggest trying a wired IEM setup using the line out or headphone out from your amp. You can then keep the amp volume low or even dispense with the onstage amp completely and just use a preamp like the Fishman platinum pro to send signal to the PA and to your IEMs

thanks. The IEM sound like a great idea actually. I assume you would take a feed from the amp or would you go to a preamp first then slit to the amp and IEM? 
 

I have looked into stands before but wouldn’t that just get the amp to waist height? To use a PA stand I think I would need a top hat fitting on the cab. Maybe I could get a small cab just for the kids and hf. 
 

Nice ideas thanks 

[TheRev]

8 hours ago, adriansmith247 said:

thanks. The IEM sound like a great idea actually. I assume you would take a feed from the amp or would you go to a preamp first then slit to the amp and IEM? 
 

I have looked into stands before but wouldn’t that just get the amp to waist height? To use a PA stand I think I would need a top hat fitting on the cab. Maybe I could get a small cab just for the 

I sometimes use IEM with a Behringer Powerplay headphone amp running off the 'amp output' socket of my Fishman preamp. The PA gets a signal from the DI on the preamp.

 

My K&M X stand goes pretty high - not head height but certainly chest height.

[Rosie C]

11 hours ago, TheRev said:

If, however,  the issue is that you just need to hear yourself better, then I'd suggest trying a wired IEM setup using the line out or headphone out from your amp. You can then keep the amp volume low or even dispense with the onstage amp completely and just use a preamp like the Fishman platinum pro to send signal to the PA and to your IEMs

 

This is what I do - ambient IEMs run through a personal headphone amp from a signal split out from my pedal board. My first pedal is a TU-3 tuner which has two outputs.

 

Edited August 24 by Rosie C

[basstone]

Getting a decent bass monitor level is not easy particularly with acoustic upright where feedback is often an issue even at moderate sound levels. As already noted putting a high pass filter to reduce the bottom octave helps and often cleans the bass sound up nicely as well as allowing the amp and speaker to go to higher volume levels without distress!  I tip my floor monitor amp/speaker back about 45 degrees and try to position it pointing directly at my head if possible ( much easier if sitting as I most often do playing electric beetles for jazz and big band). Putting the amp on a speaker stand is a good option but it’s more gear and needs a cab with a pole mount. Using a separate preamp and an active pa speaker is a good option as well. In ears is worth looking at but as well as good earphones  you need to get a balanced mix so you can hear the other instruments and the ambient sound. This is fine if you have the luxury of a full pa with everything going through it and either a decent sound engineer or the ability to control your own mix. All this is not often available on smaller gigs! It would be interesting to hear if anyone has tried a simple 2 way mix of di bass and an ambient mic?

[adriansmith247]

Good points and I agree. It can be very frustrating sometimes. So I may look into IEM just to send a bit of me to my ears. Once it gets to that point the band is often so loud I would hear them anyway @basstone

 

in most gigs I play, my amp is what the audience hears so there is a compromise there too. 
I read about players who never use an amp as they just send a signal to the PA and get a monitor mix. Would love that 
I have tried a small floor monitor but it was too much hassle and messed with the sound for some reason. Something to do with phase between the monitor and my main cab. 
One thing I have done is take an old gk combo and place it somewhere else in stage facing out to the audience. This works well for the audience for sure

[bassace]

DB players have been sticking their cabs up on chairs since time immemorial. Not only is it downright ugly on stage but at that height it’s not particularly effective. Getting the cab up to above waist level, or even up to the shoulders takes the output closer to the ears. Also the sound will be well above the point where the bass is most microphonic and prone to feedback. And I agree with putting a high pass filter in the chain to bring out the mids. That way you should be able to hear yourself clearly.

 

I’ve been using a low rise speaker stand - goes up to shoulders - with a platform on top. Mine is notched out to accept the Genzler 10-2 and drilled for a 10” Wizzy. That way no mods are required to the cab. And, ahem, it’s for sale in the amps and cabs section.

 

 

[Happy Jack]

I run DB -> Trace Elf -> Crazy 8 cab on an old speaker stand at ear height

 

AND

 

                  Trace Elf -> DI Out to FOH

 

The Crazy 8 is tiny (clue's in the name) and for my purposes any decent PA top would do just as well. I roll off some bass on the amp to avoid overloading the cab and I can hear myself clearly pretty much regardless of volume levels either on stage or in the venue. The combination of Gain & Volume controls on the Trace Elf give me all the control I need on stage, everything else lies with @Silvia Bluejay out front.

 

Having the tiny cab (with effectively an HPF) four foot off the ground means that I never get feedback issues. I routinely play with four different DBs according to what's needed for the gig, and this system works equally well with all of them.

 

Here it is in action a week ago:

 

 

[tinyd]

I used to have a rev solo and while it sounded natural, it didn't cut through. I use a Realist Copperhead now and it's much better. Not quite as "hi fi" but pretty loud and I never have feedback issues with it. 

 

I also recently switched to a PJB C2 cab (5 inch speakers) and this cut through better than my old GK MB150 did. 

 

Obviously there are lots of combinations, but I reckon a louder pickup might be a good place to start.

[SimBass]

Another one for IEM with ambient mic here. Stood between a loud drummer, trumpets and trombones in a 19 piece big band, I'm also very grateful for the ear defense this brings. Loads of info in the "IEM bible thread"

(Using an Eminence small bodied bass I don't have feedback issues but this works well for me)

[adriansmith247]

13 hours ago, tinyd said:

I used to have a rev solo and while it sounded natural, it didn't cut through. I use a Realist Copperhead now and it's much better. Not quite as "hi fi" but pretty loud and I never have feedback issues with it. 

 

I also recently switched to a PJB C2 cab (5 inch speakers) and this cut through better than my old GK MB150 did. 

 

Obviously there are lots of combinations, but I reckon a louder pickup might be a good place to start.

Sounds like my experience. The solo Sounds great in low volume situations but gets lost when loud. Unfortunately I tried the realist but was getting crazy volume difference between strings with the E string really quiet and the G really booming. 
I may try going back to my trusty shadow pickup despite the sound

[adriansmith247]

17 hours ago, bassace said:

DB players have been sticking their cabs up on chairs since time immemorial. Not only is it downright ugly on stage but at that height it’s not particularly effective. Getting the cab up to above waist level, or even up to the shoulders takes the output closer to the ears. Also the sound will be well above the point where the bass is most microphonic and prone to feedback. And I agree with putting a high pass filter in the chain to bring out the mids. That way you should be able to hear yourself clearly.

 

I’ve been using a low rise speaker stand - goes up to shoulders - with a platform on top. Mine is notched out to accept the Genzler 10-2 and drilled for a 10” Wizzy. That way no mods are required to the cab. And, ahem, it’s for sale in the amps and cabs section.

 

 

That looks like a great solution, and I have a whizzy 10. 

[adriansmith247]

17 hours ago, Happy Jack said:

I run DB -> Trace Elf -> Crazy 8 cab on an old speaker stand at ear height

 

AND

 

                  Trace Elf -> DI Out to FOH

 

The Crazy 8 is tiny (clue's in the name) and for my purposes any decent PA top would do just as well. I roll off some bass on the amp to avoid overloading the cab and I can hear myself clearly pretty much regardless of volume levels either on stage or in the venue. The combination of Gain & Volume controls on the Trace Elf give me all the control I need on stage, everything else lies with @Silvia Bluejay out front.

 

Having the tiny cab (with effectively an HPF) four foot off the ground means that I never get feedback issues. I routinely play with four different DBs according to what's needed for the gig, and this system works equally well with all of them.

 

Here it is in action a week ago:

 

 

The band sounds great and I love your setup. I am now thinking of going down this route, at least getting the cab up to waist height. I tend to play smaller venues and never with PA support. 
 

Also, unrelated, have a very strict 2 journeys from the car policy so small cabs are a must. An amp stand may push that but worth a go. 

[tinyd]

3 hours ago, adriansmith247 said:

Sounds like my experience. The solo Sounds great in low volume situations but gets lost when loud. Unfortunately I tried the realist but was getting crazy volume difference between strings with the E string really quiet and the G really booming. 
I may try going back to my trusty shadow pickup despite the sound

I don't experience those volume differences but the Realist is very bassy and I tend to knock all the EQ way down on the amp. I've just ordered an Fdeck to see if that smooths things out a bit ...

[adriansmith247]

1 hour ago, tinyd said:

I don't experience those volume differences but the Realist is very bassy and I tend to knock all the EQ way down on the amp. I've just ordered an Fdeck to see if that smooths things out a bit ...

I loved the sound from the realist but could not deal with the volume difference between strings. Bit gutted. It may be unlucky or something to do with the bass setup

[TheRev]

This is my setup: Krivo magnetic pickup into a Fishman pre with HPF. DI signal without the HPF goes to the PA, amp out signal goes to the amp/MAS 45 cab, which sits on a X/keyboard stand at chest/shoulder height.

 

A HPF is essential for defeating feedback in my opinion - I wouldn't gig without one.

[pete.young]

10 hours ago, TheRev said:

This is my setup: Krivo magnetic pickup into a Fishman pre with HPF. DI signal without the HPF goes to the PA, amp out signal goes to the amp/MAS 45 cab, which sits on a X/keyboard stand at chest/shoulder height.

 

 

The keyboard stand is a brilliant idea. I was wondering what to do with the one I bought for a one-off gig on piano. I'll give this a go with my Lfsys Monza.

[Acebassmusic]

For my cab I use this....Amp Stand Thread

[tinyd]

Played my third gig last night with the PJB C2 cab (plus small Warwick Gnome head) and I was able to hear myself really well in the drum/bass/piano/vocals lineup, even though the cab was on the floor at my feet right next to the kick drum.

In terms of hearing, I find I have to overcome my natural dislike of the high-mid sound from the piezo pickup - I usually have mids turned way down but I've started tweaking it upwards a bit. It sounds a bit nasal when the bass is playing on its own, but "in the mix" it helps me to hear my own intonation while not really detracting from the overall sound.

[TheRev]

On 26/08/2024 at 12:23, tinyd said:

In terms of hearing, I find I have to overcome my natural dislike of the high-mid sound from the piezo pickup - I usually have mids turned way down but I've started tweaking it upwards a bit. It sounds a bit nasal when the bass is playing on its own, but "in the mix" it helps me to hear my own intonation while not really detracting from the overall sound.

My amp tone is dominated by mids and treble for this very reason - too much low end and I either can't hear the note with enough definition to pitch properly or I get feedback.  The PA gets a full range signal from the DI out on my Fishman pre, then the signal goes throgh the HPF and out to my amp, so it's only me who hears the trebly sound. Everyone else gets the full range signal back from the desk in their monitors/IEMs.  My monitor has no bass signal from the desk to prevent feedback.

On a decent stage that isn't too boomy, I can increase the low end in my amp enough to have a fairly satisfying, full sound, but otherwise I just suck up the lack of low end and trust it sounds good out front.  

[tinyd]

23 minutes ago, TheRev said:

My amp tone is dominated by mids and treble for this very reason - too much low end and I either can't hear the note with enough definition to pitch properly or I get feedback.  The PA gets a full range signal from the DI out on my Fishman pre, then the signal goes throgh the HPF and out to my amp, so it's only me who hears the trebly sound. Everyone else gets the full range signal back from the desk in their monitors/IEMs.  My monitor has no bass signal from the desk to prevent feedback.

On a decent stage that isn't too boomy, I can increase the low end in my amp enough to have a fairly satisfying, full sound, but otherwise I just suck up the lack of low end and trust it sounds good out front.  

That's kind of the same as me alright, except I don't use a PA, so I have to try and get the balance right through my amp. 

The problem with too much treble / mid for the player IMO is that for walking bass especially you lose some of the "pulse" which is such a feature of DB, and because of the way that the DB notes "bloom" after being struck it impacts the music's swing/timing in a significant way. There's a good reason why so few "straightahead" jazz players use BG even though it would be so much more convenient (there's obviously a looks thing, but I can honestly say that avoiding hefting a massive piece of wood into some of the smaller spaces would override any fashion reasons for using DB).

Anyway, I'm hoping that when I get an Fdeck it will tighten up the bottom end a bit....

[adriansmith247]

I use a HPF all the time as I have one on each amp (Acoustic Image / EA). It is certainly an eye opener when you go without an HPF as you can see the driver moving a lot. I am sure the cabs would blow without one. However, I am not sure about how much they clean up the sound. To me they are a functional necessity. 

 

The thing is I mainly play jazz in small venues so I am looking at a subtle stand for use with a 10 cab or maybe 12 cab. The less I have to carry the better.

 

Having considered the advice here I have started to use a folding bar stool for my 10 cab with some success and have purchased a keyboard stand for my 12 cab, thanks to TheRev. Ultimately I think I will go down the short stand route as demonstrated by Bassace as this looks to be the best fit for most of my gigs. Unfortunately there seems to be a worldwide shortage of these short stands atm, and I don't fancy paying all the taxes to get one from the USA https://gollihurmusic.com/compact-amplifier-stand-tripod-pole-mount/

 

I am also going to ditch my Rev Solo pickup, even though it sounds great. I am going to try the Shadow pu again, despite not liking the sound too much to be honest. I wish my bass liked the Realist but it doesn't. 

 

Maybe I need a new bass. Mmmmm......

 

 

 

Edited August 28 by adriansmith247

[adriansmith247]

Here is my DIY solution. A bit of chipboard attached to a folding stool

 

easy to carry

keep in the car

cheap

perfect height

fits my EA whizzy 10 or 12

very robust and stable

 

[Marty Forrer]

I have used most pickups... Realist, Shadow, Underwood, Barbera, Wilson, BassMax, Fishman and Rev Solo,  but my choice is a Zac Victor. As good as any, better than most. I have also used a Krivo magnetic, great for volume, but doesn't sound as good as the Zac. I have used a myriad of amps, and really I can make them pretty much all sound the same, but I keep the gain low and the master up, tilt them up at me and run a line out to the PA. The PA is mine, plus I'm the sound guy, so I keep the mids present at my amp for clarity, and get my out-front tone at the desk.