Tips for hearing yourself live

[Beedster]

On 23/08/2024 at 21:54, adriansmith247 said:

On the drive home I have started contemplating getting an EUB or magnetic pickup, blocking the f holes or even using a slab bass (but most don’t want that for jazz) 

 

I'm doing an upcoming gig with a Krivo mag PUP for the first time in several years because while I much prefer playing guts into an Ear Trumpet mic, I'm just fed up with not being able to either hear myself and/or not being heard by the audience. We're an occasional 3-piece bluegrass combo and tend to play small venues (no joke, the next venue is about the same size as my kitchen), so it's not really worth getting a soundguy in, but I am just fed up with being essentially a visual component of the band 

 

 

[Burns-bass]

5 minutes ago, Beedster said:

 

I'm doing an upcoming gig with a Krivo mag PUP for the first time in several years because while I much prefer playing guts into an Ear Trumpet mic, I'm just fed up with not being able to either hear myself and/or not being heard by the audience. We're an occasional 3-piece bluegrass combo and tend to play small venues (no joke, the next venue is about the same size as my kitchen), so it's not really worth getting a soundguy in, but I am just fed up with being essentially a visual component of the band 

 

 

 

I had this. Sound people kept complaining the bass was too low with a piezo and then when I turned it up the risk of feedback was too high. I now have both a magnetic and a peizo on the bass and while you can mix them, I can't be bothered. Let us know how the gig goes!

[Beedster]

1 minute ago, Burns-bass said:

 

I had this. Sound people kept complaining the bass was too low with a piezo and then when I turned it up the risk of feedback was too high. I now have both a magnetic and a peizo on the bass and while you can mix them, I can't be bothered. Let us know how the gig goes!

 

I've been using a piezo blended with the Ear Trumpet into a Grace Felix, sounds sublime soloed, gives lots of options, and i imagine will be amazing recorded or in a 'intimate' Jazz Club. But down the Dog & Stoat on a Saturday night it ain't a winning combination, almost considered using electric bass, it's got that bad......

[TheRev]

I switched from a Bassmax to Krivo after a disastrous gig (sound-wise) in a pub in Wimbourne in 2015 and have never regretted it.  I never liked that annoying mid range honky thing that piezos have anyway...

Yes, solo'd, the Krivo sounds less natural but it cuts through in the mix, it goes loud and you can be heard.  I've had plenty of engineers (live and recording) and other bands comment on how audible my bass is in the mix and how it pretty much still sounds like a double bass.  Not once has anyone complained about my sound not being 'my bass only louder' - at least not to my face. 

[Burns-bass]

10 hours ago, Beedster said:

 

I've been using a piezo blended with the Ear Trumpet into a Grace Felix, sounds sublime soloed, gives lots of options, and i imagine will be amazing recorded or in a 'intimate' Jazz Club. But down the Dog & Stoat on a Saturday night it ain't a winning combination, almost considered using electric bass, it's got that bad......

Yep, 100% agree. I got one of these made and it’s excellent.

 

http://www.zadow-electronics.de/pickup_e.htm

 

Stick it into a good preamp and sounds ace.

[adriansmith247]

2 hours ago, Burns-bass said:

Yep, 100% agree. I got one of these made and it’s excellent.

 

http://www.zadow-electronics.de/pickup_e.htm

 

Stick it into a good preamp and sounds ace.

 

This link seems to be describing my experience exactly. I travel home from too many gigs just thinking about new pickups, new bass, new strings, IEMs, when really all I want to do is ditch the amp and play acoustically. 

 

I can report that although my new amp stand is an improvement in being able to hear myself, in an ironic twist I can now hear my pickup really well, and can hear that is actually sounds a bit crappy. When I had the amp on the floor facing upwards I was probably hearing a more indirect sound blended with the room. Not ideal but at least I wasn't hearing my pickup sound clearly. When I play quietly I can get a great sound, but the higher the volume, the worse the sound. The Shadow sounds worse than the Rev Solo, but they both sound a bit plasticky/fake. 

 

Am I missing something or is this pickup described in the link, just a magnetic pickup with a blender for your existing piezo? 

 

I have tried blending a piezo with a realist before, I found it to be bit too much faff for not a lot of improvement. However I have never contemplated a magnetic pickup as I assume it would just sound too much like an EUB. I would like to try it though

 

 

[Beedster]

2 minutes ago, adriansmith247 said:

I can report that although my new amp stand is an improvement in being able to hear myself, in an ironic twist I can now hear my pickup really well, and can hear that is actually sounds a bit crappy.

 

 

I used to worry about that a lot but found that while sounding crap close up it sound quite different - and a lot better - a few metres away where the people that matter are standing! In fact I've found that if it sounds nice and full-bodied to me on stage it probably sounds muffled and/or boomy out front, although as we al know every DB's different so this may not apply to yours at all. But try checking out recordings taken from the room itself to see how it's sounding out there

[adriansmith247]

13 hours ago, Beedster said:

 

I've been using a piezo blended with the Ear Trumpet into a Grace Felix, sounds sublime soloed, gives lots of options, and i imagine will be amazing recorded or in a 'intimate' Jazz Club. But down the Dog & Stoat on a Saturday night it ain't a winning combination, almost considered using electric bass, it's got that bad......

 

Same here. I hate playing loud. I sometimes even need to wear earplugs. Crazy

much better to play electric or EUB in those situations, but the jazz bands I play with would have a fit if I turned up with an electric 🙂 They definitely want the look and 'sound' of a db

[adriansmith247]

1 hour ago, Beedster said:

 

I used to worry about that a lot but found that while sounding crap close up it sound quite different - and a lot better - a few metres away where the people that matter are standing! In fact I've found that if it sounds nice and full-bodied to me on stage it probably sounds muffled and/or boomy out front, although as we al know every DB's different so this may not apply to yours at all. But try checking out recordings taken from the room itself to see how it's sounding out there

 

That is a very good point. When I hear someone playing my bass I am usually impressed by the sound. 

[Beedster]

6 hours ago, adriansmith247 said:

 

That is a very good point. When I hear someone playing my bass I am usually impressed by the sound. 

I’m sure @Bill Fitzmaurice can explain the effect 👍

[Burns-bass]

8 hours ago, adriansmith247 said:

 

This link seems to be describing my experience exactly. I travel home from too many gigs just thinking about new pickups, new bass, new strings, IEMs, when really all I want to do is ditch the amp and play acoustically. 

 

I can report that although my new amp stand is an improvement in being able to hear myself, in an ironic twist I can now hear my pickup really well, and can hear that is actually sounds a bit crappy. When I had the amp on the floor facing upwards I was probably hearing a more indirect sound blended with the room. Not ideal but at least I wasn't hearing my pickup sound clearly. When I play quietly I can get a great sound, but the higher the volume, the worse the sound. The Shadow sounds worse than the Rev Solo, but they both sound a bit plasticky/fake. 

 

Am I missing something or is this pickup described in the link, just a magnetic pickup with a blender for your existing piezo? 

 

I have tried blending a piezo with a realist before, I found it to be bit too much faff for not a lot of improvement. However I have never contemplated a magnetic pickup as I assume it would just sound too much like an EUB. I would like to try it though

 

 

It is essentially a magnetic pickup that you can blend with a piezo, yes.

 

I play loud and with effects sometimes and a piezo just doesn’t work. If I was playing smoky jazz clubs or had some sound engineer to do everything for me, then I’m not sure it would be the best solution (although the guy from Mumford & Sons used to use one of these and he was playing mega stages!).

 

It’s 100% plug and play which is what I need for my gigs. 
 

Better players at bigger venues will need something else, naturally.

[Beedster]

35 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

Better players at bigger venues will need something else, naturally.

 

That's not entirely true Lawrie (your own Mumfords example suggests this). Yep some players will want the air of their £100k bass and custom guts to sing out through a vintage mic (nice), but the vast majority will simply want to send a reliable and strong signal to the desk from where it will be made to sit nicely with the mix. IIRC the guy from OCMS was using a Krivo when I saw them (and he was VERY loud). For sure, Chris Wood uses an Ear Trumpet and a piezo under each foot blended, but I suspect he's the exception not the rule. 

[Beedster]

4 minutes ago, Beedster said:

 

That's not entirely true Lawrie (your own Mumfords example suggests this). Yep some players will want the air of their £100k bass and custom guts to sing out through a vintage mic (nice), but the vast majority will simply want to send a reliable and strong signal to the desk from where it will be made to sit nicely with the mix. IIRC the guy from OCMS was using a Krivo when I saw them (and he was VERY loud). For sure, Chris Wood uses an Ear Trumpet and a piezo under each foot blended, but I suspect he's the exception not the rule. 

 

And another reason for a simgle mag PUP is that the soundguy (and musician) has a relatively simple proposition by comparison with multiple PUPs with different audio characteristics. Good soundguy* no problem, soundguy with low experience of double bass a different story

 

* I use 'guy' as a gender neutral term BTW but should probably edit every post I've made over the last 15 years to 'soundperson' 👍

[adriansmith247]

2 hours ago, Beedster said:

 

And another reason for a simgle mag PUP is that the soundguy (and musician) has a relatively simple proposition by comparison with multiple PUPs with different audio characteristics. Good soundguy* no problem, soundguy with low experience of double bass a different story

 

* I use 'guy' as a gender neutral term BTW but should probably edit every post I've made over the last 15 years to 'soundperson' 👍

 

Agreed. Many sound engineers don't understand double bass at all. They want to pump up the volume and the bass end, or they add HF to cut through the mix.

On the odd occasion I get to play through a large sound system, I always send a signal with an HPF set quite high to take out all the low end. (Fishman pre)

There was one time I didn't do that and had so much sub bass I may as well have been playing D'n'B ! 

[Beedster]

3 hours ago, adriansmith247 said:

 

Agreed. Many sound engineers don't understand double bass at all. They want to pump up the volume and the bass end, or they add HF to cut through the mix.

On the odd occasion I get to play through a large sound system, I always send a signal with an HPF set quite high to take out all the low end. (Fishman pre)

There was one time I didn't do that and had so much sub bass I may as well have been playing D'n'B ! 

 

We've all had that moment on stage when we, and the band and sometimes the whole audience, gets the growing fear that something is happening in the tectonic space, only to find that minds are put at rest when you step on the mute switch   

[TheRev]

3 hours ago, adriansmith247 said:

 

There was one time I didn't do that and had so much sub bass I may as well have been playing D'n'B ! 

🙄

I usually sent the FOH a full reange (pre-preamp) signal and use the HPF for the feed to my amp.

Then came the gig on Weston Pier where the PA company had put about 8 subs under the stage.... the low end was ridiculous -the soundpersons were backslappng each other about how sick'nbitchin' the bass sound was, while on stage, my bass was vibrating like a rampant rabbit and completely unplayable.

Now I only send the non-HPF/full signal to FOH engineers that I know can do a proper job.

[Beedster]

9 minutes ago, TheRev said:

🙄

I usually sent the FOH a full reange (pre-preamp) signal and use the HPF for the feed to my amp.

Then came the gig on Weston Pier where the PA company had put about 8 subs under the stage.... the low end was ridiculous -the soundpersons were backslappng each other about how sick'nbitchin' the bass sound was, while on stage, my bass was vibrating like a rampant rabbit and completely unplayable.

Now I only send the non-HPF/full signal to FOH engineers that I know can do a proper job.

 

Ha ha, I know how you feel, that moment when it feels like the bass - and sometimes the entire building - is about to reach critical amplitude at resonant frequency and dissolve into a pile of splinters. Funny how everyone looks at the bassist and never the soundguy