SamIAm Posted August 30 Share Posted August 30 My first bass build was an adventure! lol My second DIY build bass project was scuppered by a fire in my flat. I set out to collect the bits and bobs needed to start again. Over the past few months I've been pondering how to move forward with Phoenix (Yes, a rising from the ashes reference lol) I've a block of wood (Idigbo), headless tuning system, pickups, truss rod, yada yada. My aim is to go for a 30 inch 5 string fretted neck ... but building this is way beyond my skill, I could find nothing suitable on the internet (I seek a 18+mm bridge string spacing) and the cost of a bespoke neck is beyond my reach (I checked!). Stalled! But then I got to thinking and realised that were I to get a Ibanez TMB35 I could use the neck as the basis of a mod (Is it a mod!?). A couple of days ago this arrived ... And so ... the plan (As it is) is to use just the neck, modify the headstock for the headless system I've got (NOVA system from @Andre_Passini) and build a body from scratch. I'm still toying with how I can convert it to a zero fret setup. I'm writing this "diary" is for a couple of reasons: 1) To share what I do in case it may be of interest to others. (If only to warn against what not to do!) 2) As a place to ask the the many (many) questions I have around this journey, to seek the wisdom and experience of the BC collective mind. This project is likely to take a long time as this year I have been experiencing major fatigue issues, but it has started! And so to my first question ... How to determine if a bass will be well balanced? The stock TMB35 has hideous neck dive! The one I've acquired had some lighter weight tuners fitted, but she still dives. Using a headless system (And some neck reshaping I plan) will reduce the overall neck weight, but I want to try to use the lightest body weight I can. When I 'hang' it from my finger on the top horn the TMB35 is body heavy, but with a strap on it is not. How does one figure out the balance of a bass before building it? Sam x 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted August 30 Share Posted August 30 Taking the headstock off, along with all that metal stuff attached to it, is going to eliminate the neck dive. Try destringing it and removing the tuners machine heads and see how that alters the balance (and that's without decapitation). Basically, if you haven't got a massive weight at the end of a long lever acting on the bass, the body will hang on you where you put it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamIAm Posted August 30 Author Share Posted August 30 4 minutes ago, tauzero said: Taking the headstock off, along with all that metal stuff attached to it, is going to eliminate the neck dive. Try destringing it and removing the tuners machine heads and see how that alters the balance (and that's without decapitation). Basically, if you haven't got a massive weight at the end of a long lever acting on the bass, the body will hang on you where you put it. The thing is @tauzero, I want to go light light on the body, like Steinberger body style light with my DIY body ... and I do not want to end up neck heavy. Sam x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard R Posted August 30 Share Posted August 30 Following! @SamIAm is a quiet genius and will do an excellent job. 🍿 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamIAm Posted August 30 Author Share Posted August 30 2 minutes ago, Richard R said: Following! @SamIAm is a quiet genius and will do an excellent job. 🍿 @Richard R can I get some of what you are smoking! But, thank you. Sam x 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackroadkill Posted August 30 Share Posted August 30 Oooh, hello! I'll enjoy watching this come together. What a cool project! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpondonBassed Posted August 30 Share Posted August 30 (edited) Despite being headless, paddle basses suffer from neck dive due to placement of the neck strap button at about the 21st fret. There is also a tendency for the whole bass to sit a couple of frets to the left (RH bass) with that set up. There are several versions of strap extenders for these. The 12th fret is accepted widely as the sweet spot to mount a strap button for basses with headstocks and sufficiently long top bouts. Edited August 30 by SpondonBassed 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted August 30 Share Posted August 30 2 hours ago, SamIAm said: The thing is @tauzero, I want to go light light on the body, like Steinberger body style light with my DIY body ... and I do not want to end up neck heavy. You don't want to just hack away chunks of the original body then? I know you said you were building from scratch but butchering the original body means no need to worry about the neck pocket, or (if the current electronics are satisfactory) cutting holes for the pickups. I've got a Hohner B2AV, and the body is quite weighty compared to the neck - if you try pivoting it at the neck/body join, the body considerably outweighs the neck. The whole lot weighs about 3.5kg, maybe less. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted August 30 Share Posted August 30 34 minutes ago, SpondonBassed said: Despite being headless, paddle basses suffer from neck dive due to placement of the neck strap button at about the 21st fret. There is also a tendency for the whole bass to sit a couple of frets to the left (RH bass) with that set up. There are several versions of strap extenders for these. The 12th fret is accepted widely as the sweet spot to mount a strap button for basses with headstocks and sufficiently long top bouts. Hohner B2AV - absolutely no neck dive with strap buttons in original position. The only issue I have with the neck strap button position is that the bass leans away from the player rather than hanging vertically, and I've seen one modification where the strap button was moved to the side of the body facing up the neck to counter that (something that the strap extender hooks don't address). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamIAm Posted August 31 Author Share Posted August 31 8 hours ago, tauzero said: You don't want to just hack away chunks of the original body then? It is something I've thought about, but comes with some issues. I don't think the body is long enough to take the headless tuners without them hanging over the end. I'm not sure what the wood is like under the finish and I am aiming for an oiled finish on the body. I'm intending on putting in a pair of Bartoloni soapbar pickups rather than using the current P/J setup. Sam x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwillett Posted August 31 Share Posted August 31 @SamIAm You're going through the same process I did for my headless bass. My thoughts are/were: 1. Taking the head off and the tuners will dramatically change the balance back to the body. My headless bass has zero dive. Your balance point will move back a fair way when the head and machine heads are gone. One way to check is to use a thin piece of picture framing wire between the two strap points and a tiny skateboard bearing to see where the balance is and how it changes. I have a <ahem> larger body mass due to good living, plenty of fresh air, lots of rugby and significant amounts of alcohol and chocolate, so that helps me stop neck dive. You may not be so lucky as me 2. The Nova kit is very good, and the bridge is quite light. So that won't adversely change your balance point. 3. You need to think carefully about how the Nova string clamp is going to fit. @JohnH89 modified the neck he kindly gave to me. He put a backplate on the neck where the Nova string clamp which is a very good idea. You need to think about filling the large holes left by the tuners, the backplate and front plate hide a lot. Cleverer people than myself (a disjoint union of 1 person and everybody but one person on Basschat) advise people to fill the holes with cross grain plugs which I struggled to find anyway and is one of the reasons my Aria Pro II neck is still in one piece. 4. My headless bass is slightly longer than standard to accommodate the bass tuners. I decided to make the body the right length so they didn't stick out. However other people did suggest that they did stick out and add some design features to protect them. Horses for courses and both ideas are in production by proper guitar makers. I decided to keep them inboard as I'm clumsy and would break anything not significantly protected. I just sketched out the scale and bridge positions in Fusion 360 to see what it looked like. 5. Your new body and choice of material will make the biggest difference. Fusion 360 is supposed to be able to make the calculations for balance points or centre of gravity. I don't have that version though My headless bass is now 3.99Kg, the neck is circa 1.8Kg (https://shop.rall-online.net/Fender-Standard-Series-Jazz-Bass-Neck-Maple) so this means the body is around 2.2Kg with everything connected up. The aluminium backbone is probably 1.3 to 1.4Kg from memory. The printed body paret is very light. Don't know how you want to do the body, but if its small, it may need to be dense. At the end of the day, you have a long lever attached to a smallish body so "you canna change the laws of physics cap'n" whatever you do. I'd test, test and test again. Duct tape may be your friend here. I'll happily weigh and measure things for you, but I'm in Italy on holiday with family until Weds. Rob 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard R Posted August 31 Share Posted August 31 16 hours ago, SamIAm said: @Richard R can I get some of what you are smoking! But, thank you. Sam x Never smoked anything in my life, the universe is weird enough as it is! 😁 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamIAm Posted September 1 Author Share Posted September 1 @rwillett, thanks so much Rob! Great insights! I've come across the wire/duct tape approach to balancing, but I am hoping to address this mostly at the design stage, my version of F360 (Fusion 2.0.19941 arm64) does seem to support centre of mass, but I've yet to learn about how to specify the different materials to allow for the body/neck difference; and not clear yet on the route (If any) to allow for the accessories (pickups, tuners, etc). Even if it gives me a 'close enough for jazz' result it will hopefully help avoid a major screwup. I'd not thought about a backplate on the back of the headstock. My intention was to mount the Nova string clamp (using thru hex bolts rather then screws) in a position that allows access to the truss rod and then remove more or less all the other wood of the headstock. I've yet to figure out if the position of the clamp will leave any of the tuner holes visible; a quick 'back of an envelope' look suggests I'll need to fill one or two of the tuner holes and I might even need to produce some sort of shim to sit between the clamp and the headstock. Body wise, I prefer the idea of not having the tuners extending beyond the end, the other 'drivers' are as light as possible and funky! lol And your points have prompted me to reconsider the body build, I am very drawn to going down the 3D print route as it is certainly much more in my skillset then woodcraft and would for sure classify as funky ... time to reread your build threads! Sam x 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itu Posted September 1 Share Posted September 1 Although my project has been seriously delayed, as the luthier is travelling round the world, my headstock can be seen here. That bigger hole is the access to the truss rod. The material is Alumec-89, which is very nice to machine. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwillett Posted September 1 Share Posted September 1 10 hours ago, SamIAm said: I've come across the wire/duct tape approach to balancing, but I am hoping to address this mostly at the design stage, my version of F360 (Fusion 2.0.19941 arm64) does seem to support centre of mass, but I've yet to learn about how to specify the different materials to allow for the body/neck difference; and not clear yet on the route (If any) to allow for the accessories (pickups, tuners, etc). Even if it gives me a 'close enough for jazz' result it will hopefully help avoid a major screwup. I thought the CoG stuff was all paid so never even looked for it in F360. I will now look, but suspect I'll have the same problem as you over getting to know it. 10 hours ago, SamIAm said: I'd not thought about a backplate on the back of the headstock. My intention was to mount the Nova string clamp (using thru hex bolts rather then screws) in a position that allows access to the truss rod and then remove more or less all the other wood of the headstock. I've yet to figure out if the position of the clamp will leave any of the tuner holes visible; a quick 'back of an envelope' look suggests I'll need to fill one or two of the tuner holes and I might even need to produce some sort of shim to sit between the clamp and the headstock. This is where CAD helps, Cardboard Aided Design. Cut it out to shape and see how it fits on the headstock. I've printed some round shims for tuners as a stop gap whilst I procured some metal rounds shims so the tuners sit properly, and then promptly forgot about them. They are still in and working well. 11 hours ago, SamIAm said: And your points have prompted me to reconsider the body build, I am very drawn to going down the 3D print route as it is certainly much more in my skillset then woodcraft and would for sure classify as funky ... time to reread your build threads! The biggest lesson I learnt was that 15mm plywood as a backbone is no match for round bass strings, never mind flats. A 15mm T6 series aluminium backbone certainly is a match. The T6 aluminium is the stuff that's readily and cheaply available. However you are then into machining aluminium, which might be nothing more than drilling holes and taking an electric drill with a sanding plate. Mine moved from simply drilling holes straight thorough using a printed drill guide to printing holes that go through 80% and then tapping the holes so that there are no external screws. I can't seem to stop and always get annoyed at my poor design. Got the hang of it now, but took a few goes. The aluminium backbone acts as the strength and the body is there for eye candy and for holding the electrics in place. I can also advice you NOT to go for Carbon Fibre as I'm pretty certain your mind will shortly move that way. I looked at using CF and the people who know about CF strongly advised me not to. Its in one of the build threads about the discussions I had. 10 hours ago, itu said: Although my project has been seriously delayed, as the luthier is travelling round the world, my headstock can be seen here. That bigger hole is the access to the truss rod. The material is Alumec-89, which is very nice to machine. That looks great as a headstock. That allows you to chop most of the headstock off and having a very small surface area to worry about AND excellent access to the truss rod. I like that very much apart from your luthier seems to have cocked up the spacing for a four string, rookie mistake Rob 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itu Posted September 1 Share Posted September 1 (edited) That headstock, as well as the tuning system, came from my machine. Luthier took - or will take - care of the wooden parts. Hopefully sooner than later. It has taken quite some time. Edited September 1 by itu learning to write 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwillett Posted September 1 Share Posted September 1 @itu that's a very nice piece of machining. Far beyond what I can do with metal. Is there a nut behind the lock or is the lock the nut? Does my question even make sense? Thanks Rob 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itu Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 There's a zero fret. There was no space for a nut. Bad pic, it's not visible here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 Interesting thread. And the weight distribution, strap positioning, etc, interaction is a complicated topic! No - it's a VERY complicated topic... I found with my series of lightweight guitar and bass builds a few years back another factor I hadn't really considered before - the effect of the horn strap pin and weight distribution on not only whether the neck dives or not, but also the left/right position that the instrument hangs on your body - which can make a long scale feel like a short scale, a short scale feel like a long scale and every combination in between! I'll draw a few diagrams to illustrate when I get a free moment. One thing is for certain, though: cutting off the headstock removes a major leverage factor. Putting the tuners at the back adds a smaller but useful bit of leverage the other way. Both will change the position of the fretboard relative to the player. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwillett Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 I think I've been very lucky with my choices when I did my headless. I'd like to say it was due to careful design, extensive modelling, widespread use of computer analysis, focussed user groups, iterative prototyping design but basically I guessed. I suspect the fact that I've broad shoulders and big hands (rugby must be good for something) means I've got away with it. I will be honest and say that I never gave the position of the bass across the body even a cursory thought until this point in time, as it had never occurred to me. I think this is due to the fact that as I'm not a very good player means I don't know any better or worse. 8 minutes ago, Andyjr1515 said: And the weight distribution, strap positioning, etc, interaction is a complicated topic! No - it's a VERY complicated topic... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 2 hours ago, rwillett said: I think I've been very lucky with my choices when I did my headless. I'd like to say it was due to careful design, extensive modelling, widespread use of computer analysis, focussed user groups, iterative prototyping design but basically I guessed. I suspect the fact that I've broad shoulders and big hands (rugby must be good for something) means I've got away with it. I will be honest and say that I never gave the position of the bass across the body even a cursory thought until this point in time, as it had never occurred to me. I think this is due to the fact that as I'm not a very good player means I don't know any better or worse. Well guesswork - and trial and error - are, after all, the staples of our trade Adding guesswork, trial and error to the physics of it all, I reckon for balance and sit, especially with the extra neck length of a bass, headless is pretty hard to beat. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamIAm Posted September 2 Author Share Posted September 2 11 hours ago, itu said: There's a zero fret. There was no space for a nut. Bad pic, it's not visible here. Is the zero fret normal fretwire or is it incorporated into the head clamp? Sam x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itu Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 But sorry everyone: that picture was taken before the zero fret was in place. Luthier used a normal fretwire. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwillett Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 12 hours ago, itu said: There's a zero fret. There was no space for a nut. Bad pic, it's not visible here. Would love to see and know more this. I keep hearing about the zero nut and have read the Wikipedia page, but I'm still not much wiser TBH. I'm struggling to understand what the value is. Happy to take this off topic as we are hijacking Sam's thread. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamIAm Posted September 2 Author Share Posted September 2 Just now, rwillett said: Happy to take this off topic as we are hijacking Sam's thread. Oh please, discussion here would be great ... my doner neck has a nut but I am hoping to figure out a way of converting it to a zero fret. My understanding is ... 1) More accurate than the edge of a nut 2) More hardwearing than a nut 3) Open strings sound closer to fretted strings as they all are 'fretted' Sam x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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