itu Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 Zero fret is just one more ordinary fret to the fretboard. There still is a nut like thing keeping the strings in place in a bass, if the tuners are at that end. https://bassbros.co.uk/sold-basses/1986-vigier-passion/ Headless needs only that zero fret and the headstock, because the distance between them is so short. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulThePlug Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 (edited) 2 hours ago, SamIAm said: Oh please, discussion here would be great ... my doner neck has a nut but I am hoping to figure out a way of converting it to a zero fret. My understanding is ... 1) More accurate than the edge of a nut 2) More hardwearing than a nut 3) Open strings sound closer to fretted strings as they all are 'fretted' Sam x I'd say No... all about crowning relative to other worn or dressed frets - some blah blah on Brian Mays geetar - although he is up the dusty end. Not more hard wearing, but doesn't really wear - as you have a nut, and doesn't wear in use like tother frets... Sounding the same?.. can 't argue with that one... Nuts... cheaper and easier and easier and cheaper to maintain... Still look and think kinda funny... Edited September 2 by PaulThePlug 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 Well, my take on it is: - They are both fine to use - The best time to put a zero fret in is before the neck is finished, during fret slotting and before a nut slot has been cut. To convert a nutted neck to zero fret is a lot of work for questionable gain - and it would have to be done properly and accurately (and you still have to cut an extra slot for the all string-spacer-nut unless like, in this case, it is a headless clamp being fitted which is self-spacing!) - One advantage of zero fret is that you get spot on 'nut height'. But a good nut slotting job can match as near as makes no difference. - Another advantage of zero fret is that you get very little energy loss of the string's vibration for open strings - but I defy anyone to be able to tell the difference between that and, say, a brass or bone nut. - One disadvantage - maybe less so with basses - is that for some weird reason, the zero fret tends to wear quicker than the other frets - and any differential wear that way round will lead to string buzz. It is not unusual for a zero fret to have to be replaced after a couple of years hard playing (though that is not a difficult job) 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard R Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 5 minutes ago, Andyjr1515 said: One disadvantage - maybe less so with basses - is that for some weird reason, the zero fret tends to wear quicker than the other frets Maybe because the open string is more free to vibrate over a zero fret than within a nut slot? There would be a little more horizontal freedom for sure, and perhaps more vertical if the break angle didn't pull the string down hard? Maybe a clamp that screws the strings down hard against the zero fret would stop this wear, and do double-duty as the clamp on a headless bass? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwillett Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 37 minutes ago, Andyjr1515 said: One disadvantage - maybe less so with basses - is that for some weird reason, the zero fret tends to wear quicker than the other frets - and any differential wear that way round will lead to string buzz. It is not unusual for a zero fret to have to be replaced after a couple of years hard playing (though that is not a difficult job) If you press any string down then doesn't the string press on the fret you target AND the nut. So if you hit G you get pressure on the 3rd fret and the nut. Therefore the zero nut gets pressure for every non-open note played. Wpild that explain it? Rob 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 2 hours ago, rwillett said: If you press any string down then doesn't the string press on the fret you target AND the nut. So if you hit G you get pressure on the 3rd fret and the nut. Therefore the zero nut gets pressure for every non-open note played. Wpild that explain it? Rob Hmmm...not sure. I can't see that is any different to the first fret when you fret the second etc. My guess is that the string is always under tension on the fret, plus maybe a sawing effect over time of tuning adjustments. But it's just a guess... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted September 3 Share Posted September 3 While it springs to my unreliable and ancient mind, @SamIAm , just a point to consider before you cut the headstock off - give a bit of thought to exactly where you will be putting your clamp (especially if it's an end one like the one in @itu 's picture). Whether or not you are leaving the nut in place or fitting a zero fret, give some thought to ensuring there is going to be a decent break-angle over the nut/fret. You will never suffer from 'harping' on a headless, but a decent break angle will minimise vibration losses in the scale-length of the string. There will be a hole in the clamp for truss-rod access which limits how much you can move it, but there is usually a little bit of wiggle room up and down (and/or for a straight cut or angled cut of the headstock stub). My personal rule-of-thumb is 10 degrees break angle but certainly no less than 5. If it is an angled headstock, then a cut square with the headstock rather than square with the fretboard would be my preference. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted September 3 Share Posted September 3 (edited) For what it's worth, I did a couple of pictures to show the some of the effects of changing body/headstock weight. This is a typical bass: Note the distance between the centre line of the players body and the nut - the 'stretch' Note also that the headstock is pretty much twice the distance from the centre of gravity as the tail end of the body. If you remember your school-time physics, because of leverage, any weight change at the headstock will therefore have twice the effect as weight change at the back of body. So 0.5kg off at the headstock would have the same effect as a 1kg added at the tail in terms of, say, neck dive Removal of the headstock on a headless has two effects. - It has a disproportionate effect on the balance compared with adding weight at the bridge end - It changes where the centre of gravity sits, and therefore the position of the bass to the centre line of the players' body...and thus the 'stretch' And it can be quite a difference in 'stretch' - certainly 1 or 2 inches. That can be a good thing or a bad thing. But also - if you are designing a new body too - it can give you some other opportunities. Like bringing the front horn back a bit... Edited September 3 by Andyjr1515 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwillett Posted September 3 Share Posted September 3 13 hours ago, Andyjr1515 said: Hmmm...not sure. I can't see that is any different to the first fret when you fret the second etc. My guess is that the string is always under tension on the fret, plus maybe a sawing effect over time of tuning adjustments. But it's just a guess... I wonder if the zero nut is a bit like directional audio cable? I know that when I was slightly more interested in audio as opposed to music, there was big movement in copper interconned cable that cost a fortune and sounded better in one direction than another. I also know that somebody was selling directional fibre optic cable for audio as well. I do know a tinybbit about fibre optic and shifting large quantities of bits as I have designed and built a number of data centres and server rooms. Some of these may shift petabytes per day. Never once had a directional fibre cable there. Anyway have read loads more and still struggle to see what the advantages are. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted September 3 Share Posted September 3 (edited) 11 minutes ago, rwillett said: Anyway have read loads more and still struggle to see what the advantages are. I agree - it's marginal if the nut has been cut right. It is always a surprise to me, though, how many are not cut well - even on high end brands. That said, there are very few big name brands that do fit, or have fitted, zero frets. Vintage Gretsch, one of the Gibson specials from a while back, er... Edited September 3 by Andyjr1515 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted September 7 Share Posted September 7 On 03/09/2024 at 13:37, rwillett said: I wonder if the zero nut is a bit like directional audio cable? I know that when I was slightly more interested in audio as opposed to music, there was big movement in copper interconned cable that cost a fortune and sounded better in one direction than another. I also know that somebody was selling directional fibre optic cable for audio as well. I do know a tinybbit about fibre optic and shifting large quantities of bits as I have designed and built a number of data centres and server rooms. Some of these may shift petabytes per day. Never once had a directional fibre cable there. Anyway have read loads more and still struggle to see what the advantages are. Bidirectional audio cable is a load of old bollocks. Consider - an audio signal is AC, centred around 0V, so electrons travel in both directions. A pretty fundamental demolition of the whole idea. However, zero nuts aren't a load of old bollocks. It means that the strings will be raised to a consistent height at the nut end rather than relying on the nut being accurately cut. My Eko 6 acoustic that I've had for at least 40 years has a zero fret and no issues (despite being in regular use). Of the 15 basses and five guitars in my sight, the Sei Flamboyant headless has one, the Cort Space has one, and the aforementioned Eko has one. There's no need on the Warwicks or the two Antoniotsais that I've retrofitted with Just-A-Nuts as they have adjustable nuts. If I remember, in the next couple of days I'll sort out pictures of me and various basses to show neck divingness and hanging position. The comparison of a headed and headless Sei Flamboyant may be useful (might be worth appealing to anyone who owns both headed and headless Statii to do similar). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted September 7 Share Posted September 7 On 03/09/2024 at 13:49, Andyjr1515 said: I agree - it's marginal if the nut has been cut right. It is always a surprise to me, though, how many are not cut well - even on high end brands. That said, there are very few big name brands that do fit, or have fitted, zero frets. Vintage Gretsch, one of the Gibson specials from a while back, er... I suppose it depends on your definition of "big name". MTD, Steinberger, Hohner, the aforementioned Cort and Eko. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itu Posted September 7 Share Posted September 7 On 03/09/2024 at 15:37, rwillett said: ...a bit like directional audio cable? I know that when I was slightly more interested in audio as opposed to music, there was big movement in copper interconned cable that cost a fortune and sounded better in one direction than another. It's a pity that I remember those, too. But if you are into Hifi nonsense, this is by far the best piece of equipment you need, if you are a serious listener: The Cable Cooker! https://www.thecablecooker.com/ 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwillett Posted September 7 Share Posted September 7 That's a really good parody site. They've put a lot of effort into it and it sounds so convincing. It's a bit cheap though, I would expect it to be a lot more expensive than this. Its a bit like the person who was selling fake bomb detectors https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29459896. The more you charge the more people believe it. I'm now going to look at a bass string conditioner, it gets your bass strings in just the right condition to allow you to play like, well anybody. You'll be able to tune the strings (pun intended) to whatever playing style you need. It'll use a combination of special Yorkshire electricity, phases of the moon (as we all know we play better late at night), a special plectrum that anneals the string (sorry can't provide anymore information without an NDA), and some very unique herbs from the garden which will be used to coat the freshly annealed strings. Not sure if I should charge £5,000 or £10,000 for this super new development in bass playing, suggestions welcomed. Thanks Rob 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamIAm Posted September 7 Author Share Posted September 7 For special electrickitry, plectrum and herbs it is so in the £10k++ space. What a build diary this is becoming! Sam x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwillett Posted September 7 Share Posted September 7 I can guarantee that your playing wil be unrecognisable after my treatment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted September 7 Share Posted September 7 1 hour ago, rwillett said: That's a really good parody site. They've put a lot of effort into it and it sounds so convincing. It's a bit cheap though, I would expect it to be a lot more expensive than this. Its a bit like the person who was selling fake bomb detectors https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29459896. The more you charge the more people believe it. The ultimate that I've encountered is Machina Dynamica - gradually degrading though, the broken links to images used to show covers of sci-fi novels from the 50s and 60s. I commend the Brilliant Pebbles to the house. I am genuinely unsure if it's satire or genuine (partly because I've seen reviews of digital interconnects on the What Hifi website which go on about better stereo imaging and openness, when a digital interconnect either transmits the data or it doesn't and certainly wouldn't know how to affect the contents). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted September 7 Share Posted September 7 28 minutes ago, rwillett said: I can guarantee that your playing wil be unrecognisable after my treatment. Don't forget to include confusing convincing diagrams on your BassGenius website. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard R Posted September 7 Share Posted September 7 1 hour ago, itu said: It's a pity that I remember those, too. But if you are into Hifi nonsense, this is by far the best piece of equipment you need, if you are a serious listener: The Cable Cooker! https://www.thecablecooker.com/ That is just brilliant! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwillett Posted September 7 Share Posted September 7 (edited) 5 hours ago, tauzero said: The ultimate that I've encountered is Machina Dynamica - gradually degrading though, the broken links to images used to show covers of sci-fi novels from the 50s and 60s. I commend the Brilliant Pebbles to the house. I am genuinely unsure if it's satire or genuine (partly because I've seen reviews of digital interconnects on the What Hifi website which go on about better stereo imaging and openness, when a digital interconnect either transmits the data or it doesn't and certainly wouldn't know how to affect the contents). Not seen that site before. I do like it even with the broken links. There used to be some Denon interconnect cables for sale on Amazon at circa £500 for something like 30cm. The reviews were getting wilder and wilder as well as funnier and funnier but sadly Mr Bezos seems to have had a sense of humour failure and the whole list have gone I struggle with some of the audio fanatics talking about optical cables and breaking them in, directionality of them etc. I've build large data centres, both from a design PoV as well as physically. I have never once 'conditioned' an optical cable so it works better after say 48 hours, nor have I worked out which way to plug it in for better data throughput. We reach down into the basket of cables, we get the right label on it (now correctly labelling a cable is really, really, really important), we plug it into the right socket and move onto the next one. The bloke behind me would then do the cable ties so that the cables are properly labelled and neat and tidy. A tidy cable run is a joy to behold (well it is to me). Once that cable is connected in, its staying there for a quite a long time unless the damn thing is broken, rare, but does happen. Thankfully the labels we use as well as the ability to make the data socket blink makes it easy to change cables. One day when I'm retired, I'll probably have to own up to taking a major UK banks data centre down by cocking something up, but not yet. Rob Edited September 7 by rwillett Clarity and grammer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackroadkill Posted September 7 Share Posted September 7 4 minutes ago, rwillett said: One day when I'm retired, I'll probably have to own up to taking a major UK banks data centre down by cocking something up, but not yet. Your secret is safe with us, Rob! 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamIAm Posted September 7 Author Share Posted September 7 33 minutes ago, rwillett said: One day when I'm retired, I'll probably have to own up to taking a major UK banks data centre down by cocking something up, but not yet. Never happened to a data centre I've built ... urm ... ahh ... shush 😊 Sam x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamIAm Posted Sunday at 21:06 Author Share Posted Sunday at 21:06 Hmmmm ... having read the wisdom of the BC collective I am now likely not to go for a zero fret. It seems to have few advantages and my doner neck has a nut so I will not need to convert it ... makes life easier. @Andyjr1515 you mention "if the nut has been cut right" ... how can I check this? Sam x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwillett Posted Sunday at 21:12 Share Posted Sunday at 21:12 4 minutes ago, SamIAm said: @Andyjr1515 you mention "if the nut has been cut right" ... how can I check this? I'd be interested in this as well Looked on the internet and it seems about as clear as Mother Shiptons forecasts and prophesies Thx Rob 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamIAm Posted Sunday at 21:26 Author Share Posted Sunday at 21:26 13 minutes ago, rwillett said: I'd be interested in this as well Looked on the internet and it seems about as clear as Mother Shiptons forecasts and prophesies Thx Rob I hope it is not just Mother Shipton witchcraft! Sam x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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