Sire Z7...here goes

[Goldengreys]

On 02/09/2024 at 10:39, BaggyMan said:

I have owned a number of sires and a number of Musicman products (Stingrays, Ray34, USA subs olp, SUB 4 and 5's, sterling (the model))

The Z7 comes up and i like what i am seeing. Its a potentially best of both worlds buy, but in these days of few and far opportunities to try i'll watch the review and go for the even more musicman like Z3 or the Z7 and just buy one 'blind'  (return policy applies here btw..).  It will be intersting how it sits soundwise next to my Lakland 55-02 (same pickup layout..)

I like the rolled edge necks on the Sires anyway and their general good build quality/QC. 

 

So, I have decided on the Z7 and its due this week.  It will be interesting to see how having the Sire classic pre amp pre amp will suit the vibe. 

But from the demo's thus far i am confident of it being good for the bass. 

I like the extra fret access but have to admit it took a little getting used to visually.

 

At this price i think its going to be a great buy and yeah i know Sire residual prices aren't great but the ray3x prices are moving north of a grand these days so at £650 its worth the try i reckon.

 

I have gone for the Ash/roast maple combo 5 string i'll let you know how its goes..(image courtesy of Andertons from whom i am buying it)

Thanks for this Baggyman. My thoughts on this are the same as you. I watched Andersons review on YouTube and thought the Z7 ticked a lot of boxes for me. I thought this natural roasted maple colour looked great  too👍. 

 

I would be interested in how you find the lower rests on the leg and whether or not you get a good tone out the box.

 

I will also look at the z3 as well as it maybe good enough for what I need it for (home playing and basic recording).

 

I just bought a bass from BassmanAdy which I am very happy about so need to fill the piggy bank. In the meantime I will be close watching the reviews.

[Stub Mandrel]

2 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

Someone on Facebook got their Z7 today. From Sweetwater in teh USA.
 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/514552795335923/permalink/6800892833368523/

It proves they are out there and have the new  'optimistic' horn.

 

Whoops it's been pointed out that this is a Z3...

[BillyBass]

Checking all the in stock basses on the Sweetwater website, none of them are under 9lb.  Most seem to be roughly 9lb 6-8oz but there are a few over 10lb.   Even the Z7 4 string basses can be quite heavy.

 

They have 4 Blue Z3 fivers, weighing from 9lb 2oz to 10lb.  Two mint Z7 4 string: 9lb 6oz & 9lb 8oz.

 

My GAS is starting to subside.

Edited September 6 by BillyBass

[Stub Mandrel]

Neither weight nor neck dive has ever caused me an issue.

 

Clearly many bassists are passionate about these things, but I just don't get it.

[spyder]

7 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

Neither weight nor neck dive has ever caused me an issue.

 

Clearly many bassists are passionate about these things, but I just don't get it.

What until you are 60 years old, have health issues, a crumbling back due to carrying heavy gear and strapping a 5kg weight into your shoulders every day.

I won't play gigs with anything heavier than 3.5kg and cabs over 10kg...... It's happens to us all in the end...... Old age ☹️

[Munurmunuh]

9 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

Neither weight nor neck dive has ever caused me an issue.

 

Clearly many bassists are passionate about these things, but I just don't get it.

 

Given Fate's rather cheeky sense of humour, this is quite close to being a request for an educational experience or two.

[Delberthot]

Weight has never been an issue but neck dive most certainly is. nothing worse than not being able to play properly due to having to support the neck with your left hand. Regardless of what has been said before - all of the non-slip straps in the world combined won't stop a neck heavy bass being neck heavy.

 

I'd rather have a heavy bass that balanced well than a light bass with a neck that wants to head for the floor whenever you take your hands off it

[Chienmortbb]

Weight and neck dive are related, as are the position of the strap buttons. One of the biggest culprits are the machine heads. These are 4 or 5 lumps of metal on the end of a long lever (physics is your friend here). For example Gotoh's standard GB2 range of Fender style machine heads are just over 110gm so 550gms for a set of 5. The GB640 res-O-lites are just under 63gm so approx 330 gm for a set of 5. That is 7.8 oz or just shot of 1/2 pound in weight. now find something weighing that much and hang it from the headstock of you bass then take it off.

 

Hipshot also do Ultralites and the smaller modern sealed tuners can alps be replaced by lighter ones

 

The things that mitigate neck dive are 2x2 or 2x3 headstock or ... headless bases. The only thing you can do to both reduce the weight of a bass is to change the machine heads, saving 0.5lbs and helping improve neck dive. Of course you can also alter the strap buttons.

 

Be aware though that this is not a cheap upgrade, usually costing in the region of £80-120, depending on the size and number of machine heads. However I do it to all my basses.

[BillyBass]

For those interested in such things, the weights of the Z series basses that Sweetwater hold:

 

2x Z3 4 string Rosegold: 9lb 3oz, 9lb 4oz

1xZ3 5 string Rosegold: 10lb 7oz

4x Z3 5 string Blue: 9lb 2oz, 9lb 6oz, 9lb 6oz, 10lb

2xZ7 4 string Mint: 9lb 6oz, 9lb 8oz

1xZ7 5string Mint: 10lb 1oz

1xZ3 5 string Antique white: 11lb 6oz

 

The Z3s above all have mahogany bodies and the Z7s are alder

[BillyBass]

6 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

Weight and neck dive are related, as are the position of the strap buttons. One of the biggest culprits are the machine heads. These are 4 or 5 lumps of metal on the end of a long lever (physics is your friend here). For example Gotoh's standard GB2 range of Fender style machine heads are just over 110gm so 550gms for a set of 5. The GB640 res-O-lites are just under 63gm so approx 330 gm for a set of 5. That is 7.8 oz or just shot of 1/2 pound in weight. now find something weighing that much and hang it from the headstock of you bass then take it off.

 

Hipshot also do Ultralites and the smaller modern sealed tuners can alps be replaced by lighter ones

 

The things that mitigate neck dive are 2x2 or 2x3 headstock or ... headless bases. The only thing you can do to both reduce the weight of a bass is to change the machine heads, saving 0.5lbs and helping improve neck dive. Of course you can also alter the strap buttons.

 

Be aware though that this is not a cheap upgrade, usually costing in the region of £80-120, depending on the size and number of machine heads. However I do it to all my basses.

Low end Lobster did a video about machine heads that are a direct replacement for Sire tuners.  They were pretty much sold out in most places I checked, when I researched a few months ago.

 

[ern500evo]

I was looking at these this morning. Thomann is showing Z3’s in stock. I’m tempted by the Z3 four string in antique white. I’ve got a V7 vintage gen 2 and it’s a great bass for the price. The Z3 at £366 seems like pretty good value 

[Munurmunuh]

Strap button in sensible place plus lightweight tuners, and you can have both an ultralight body and a 4+0 headstock, without neck dive.

[ern500evo]

41 minutes ago, BillyBass said:

Low end Lobster did a video about machine heads that are a direct replacement for Sire tuners.  They were pretty much sold out in most places I checked, when I researched a few months ago.

 

Lobster has done some really good upgrade videos. Looks a bit different now but good to see the channel active again 

[neepheid]

I've been pretty ticked off with the stringing along with false dawn ETAs but the only reason I'm sticking with Andertons is that I'm after the burgundy finish Z7 and it looks like that has been the most popular choice, with Thomann having availability listed as "11-13 weeks" on that finish for weeks now.  Any threat to go elsewhere would be a transparent bluff because they won't care - they know they'll have no bother selling the bass I leave behind if I bail.

 

Believe me, the temptation to cancel and order a white one from Thomann (I want the ebony board) was strong.

 

Next week then?  For real this time?

[drTStingray]

On 03/09/2024 at 09:13, neepheid said:

 

It sounds reasonable, but give it time, the Z3 and Z7 have had a complication strewn birth.  It had to be reworked twice, once because the Big Poppa got butthurt about someone having the audacity to use a 3+1 headstock arrangement, and once because Internet moaners made a noise loud enough to be heard about the bottom horn.

 

Today, I'm waiting for the sowwy/not sorry email from Andertons, despite today being the day of stock ETA.

The 3+1 headstock arrangement is a patented design - it’s nothing to do with any individuals - it was a simple case of infringement of patent and a company producing a blatant copy without bothering to research properly which parts were protected or not!! 

[neepheid]

13 minutes ago, drTStingray said:

The 3+1 headstock arrangement is a patented design - it’s nothing to do with any individuals - it was a simple case of infringement of patent and a company producing a blatant copy without bothering to research properly which parts were protected or not!! 

 

LOL

[neepheid]

12 hours ago, drTStingray said:

The 3+1 headstock arrangement is a patented design - it’s nothing to do with any individuals - it was a simple case of infringement of patent and a company producing a blatant copy without bothering to research properly which parts were protected or not!! 

 

Right, I've had some time to digest this and now have a considered response for you.  Now I am not a lawyer, so this is this layman's understanding of the situation which will hopefully at least explain where I'm coming from.

 

First off, it's not a patent, it's a trademark.

 

https://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=77407809&caseSearchType=US_APPLICATION&caseType=DEFAULT&searchType=statusSearch

 

Patents generally run out in 20 years (the reason why we're allowed to buy (classic) Nespresso pods from anyone nowadays - for the first 20 years you could only get them from Nestlé so that Nestlé could make reasonable hay whilst the sun shines off the back of their invention).  Trademarks are a different beast, they remain in force as long as the fees are paid and you are seen to be enforcing them.  But they should really stick to the trademark as registered.  Let's read the description...

 

"The mark consists of a fanciful design of a headstock of a guitar, namely, a two dimensional bass guitar headstock outline of compact shape, featuring a straight side on the left and a curved side on the right, forming the appearance of the "bow of a canoe" at the top of the headstock. The dotted lines are not part of the mark and serve only to show the position or placement of the mark."

 

Now, I read this slowly several times, and I couldn't find any mention of the position of the tuners.  Also, the last sentence is significant.  Let's look at the picture submitted:

 

 

Hmm, I see dotted lines around all the tuners.  "The dotted lines are not part of the mark and serve only to show the position or placement of the mark."  Please explain to me why I'm wrong to think that this trademark covers solely the shape of the headstock and has the square root of naff all to do with tuner arrangement.

 

And if you think it has nothing to do with individuals, I'll just leave this here:

 

 

Taken from https://forums.ernieball.com/threads/trademark-of-tuners-setup.45317/

 

It is unfortunate that companies simply roll over at the slightest "cease and desist" letter from this bully and his representatives, but I can understand why - they don't want to tie up their product launch in months to years of litigation, paperwork and expense (even though I think they'd "win" in the legal sense).  Unfortunately, this emboldens bullies who indulge in this practice to continue their egregious use of the trademark system to squash competition.  What are they afraid of anyway?  Are you seriously telling me that people would confuse this:

 

 

with this?

 

 

To my mind (and it's my opinion, I have no proof), EBMM appear to be being a bunch of bullies who are abusing the trademark system in order to squash competition.

 

I've said my piece - I know you're not going to agree, or like it, but if you're going to use me as a leaping off point to have a moan, I would prefer it if you got your facts straight.

Edited September 8 by neepheid

[Munurmunuh]

10 minutes ago, neepheid said:

Hmm, I see dotted lines around all the tuners.  "The dotted lines are not part of the mark and serve only to show the position or placement of the mark."  Please explain to me why I'm wrong to think that this trademark covers solely the shape of the headstock and has the square root of naff all to do with tuner arrangement.

There are shapes inside the dotted line.....

[neepheid]

3 minutes ago, Munurmunuh said:

There are shapes inside the dotted line.....

 

Well well, looks like internet court is in session!  But who's the judge?

 

Edited September 8 by neepheid

[Munurmunuh]

Just now, neepheid said:

 

Well well, look like internet court is in session!  But who's the judge?

 

 

I believe that my Sunday morning can be more fruitfully spent than indulging in a desire for an angry exchange, byeeeeee 👋

[Eldon Tyrell]

1 hour ago, neepheid said:

 

Well well, looks like internet court is in session!  But who's the judge?

 

 

1 hour ago, Munurmunuh said:

 

I believe that my Sunday morning can be more fruitfully spent than indulging in a desire for an angry exchange, byeeeeee 👋

 

Sorry, off topic, but both posts really made me think of this song:

 

Court is in session, a verdict is in
No appeal on the docket today just my own sin
The walls cold and pale, the cage made of steel
Screams fill the room, alone I drop and kneel

......

Should have been dead on a Sunday morning, banging my head
No time for mourning
Ain't got no time

 

 

 

 

 

 

[drTStingray]

3 hours ago, neepheid said:

 

First off, it's not a patent, it's a trademark.

 

 

with this?

 

 

To my mind (and it's my opinion, I have no proof), EBMM appear to be being a bunch of bullies who are abusing the trademark system in order to squash competition.

 

I've said my piece - I know you're not going to agree, or like it, but if you're going to use me as a leaping off point to have a moan, I would prefer it if you got your facts straight.

Thanks for the correction - I’m not versed in the intricacies of registration in the US - and no, no one would choose that awful Sire copy headstock over the elegant, correct one, even if it was cheap as chips. However I do find your attitude that companies should openly go after protected designs and items - sounds like you might be keen to promote industrial piracy, not entirely sure why. I mean, why not go the whole hog and call the Sire monstrosity a MusicMan Stingray bass - of course those are also trademarks. 
 

You probably don’t know this but EBMM often pursue Far Eastern based purveyors of rubbish copies (I mean the real bad ones). It’s cropped up numerous times on the internet. So it’s not surprising they pursued Sire over this. 
 

I see you’ve quoted Sterling Ball from 2010……. a time when he was CEO and appearing on forums - a lot has happened in the ensuing 15 years and it is not him who runs most elements of the company these days - indeed this would be a matter for their lawyers. Just because Fender and Gibson couldn’t be asked to go after copies doesn’t mean other guitar makers shouldn’t - in fact most do. 

 

Funny the way some people on Basschat fixate on CEOs like this…. it’s many years ago that the likes of those at EBMM and Rickenbacker appeared on a daily basis on forums - I see the same with people quoting prices of used equipment 25-30 yrs ago expecting to pay the same now - I think it’s summed up in the title of the famous and first successful Jethro Tull single 😀

[ezbass]

Maruszczyk have been using 3 over 1, 4 over 1 and 4 over 2 for their Elwood Ls for years (I have 2 myself).

 

https://www.public-peace.de/info/elwood-l.html

[neepheid]

51 minutes ago, drTStingray said:

Thanks for the correction - I’m not versed in the intricacies of registration in the US - and no, no one would choose that awful Sire copy headstock over the elegant, correct one, even if it was cheap as chips. However I do find your attitude that companies should openly go after protected designs and items - sounds like you might be keen to promote industrial piracy, not entirely sure why. I mean, why not go the whole hog and call the Sire monstrosity a MusicMan Stingray bass - of course those are also trademarks. 
 

You probably don’t know this but EBMM often pursue Far Eastern based purveyors of rubbish copies (I mean the real bad ones). It’s cropped up numerous times on the internet. So it’s not surprising they pursued Sire over this. 
 

I see you’ve quoted Sterling Ball from 2010……. a time when he was CEO and appearing on forums - a lot has happened in the ensuing 15 years and it is not him who runs most elements of the company these days - indeed this would be a matter for their lawyers. Just because Fender and Gibson couldn’t be asked to go after copies doesn’t mean other guitar makers shouldn’t - in fact most do. 

 

Funny the way some people on Basschat fixate on CEOs like this…. it’s many years ago that the likes of those at EBMM and Rickenbacker appeared on a daily basis on forums - I see the same with people quoting prices of used equipment 25-30 yrs ago expecting to pay the same now - I think it’s summed up in the title of the famous and first successful Jethro Tull single 😀

 

First of all, thank you for your calm, eloquent and reasonable response, so sadly lacking in today's average Internet user.

 

I'll put my cards on the table and say that I don't consider the Sire Z series to be copies, and I never got the feeling that they're trying to be copies.  Heavily influenced?  Sure.  To my mind though, this bass says "bastard child of Stingray and Lakland 44/5-02" to me rather than slavish Stingray copy.  Compared to a Stingray - different headstock, different body shape, an extra fret, what appears to be an amalgam of the EB and Lakland bridge plate.  For starters.  I see this bass as a melting pot of influences and to my eyes succeeding in coming out with something fresh and different enough to be considered on its own merits.  I'm not buying the Z7 because deep down I want a Stingray and I can't afford it.  I'm buying one (if it ever bloody arrives) because it's a Sire Z7 - I like how it looks, I like the specs and I think it has its own style.  It's the same way I feel about my D5 - yes, it's a '54 P - but there's something... off (in a good way) about it.  Maybe it's that pickguard shape, gives me Cowpoke vibes.  I dunno.  Brains are soft and squidgy like that.

 

I think the bottom horn of a Ray is goofy looking.  There, I said it.

 

To call this "industrial piracy" is a bit extreme in my estimation.  I think it's lazy, route one internet bollox to simply label the Z3/7 as "Stingray copies" and I think they can happily co-exist in the market without treading on each other's toes.  They do different things, they're made differently, have different specs, and I don't think they'll cause that much cross contamination of the gear gene pools.  Your diehard EBMM/SBMM fan is not going to give a Sire houseroom, so who's poaching sales from anyone?  You'd have to be thick as a brick to confuse the two, frankly (and continuing the Tull references )

 

I absolutely think that EBMM should go after obvious and physically (almost) identical copies, and support them in doing so - that's not right and I don't support it one iota.  I just don't think that it applies in this case.

 

I'm happy to accept the point that things may well have changed at EB Towers in 14 years, but consider that the internet has a long memory and if that's the kind of reference I'm going to find upon a cursory search, then you can bet that's what people are going to go and run with in today's instant gratification world.

Edited September 8 by neepheid

[drTStingray]

I like the Sire Stingray Tribute as well - looked and sounded nice on the Andertons feature - pity they haven’t got their stock yet. Nice they’ve gone for the HS version which is not available on SBMM or EBMM variants. 
 

Any type of infringement of patents, copyright or trademarks is, in my view morally wrong and at worst piracy. I’m glad Sire has corrected this - the ensuing bass is much nicer in my view. 
 

I might give one a test drive if I’m in the vicinity of Guildford - I see quite a few people using Sire Jazz style basses and they sound good.