On board preamp with mid & mid freq vs on effects or amp?

[DocTrucker]

Evening all,

 

I've hot a bass with on board preamp with bass and trebble boost/cut. While I could add in a fixed frequency mids adjust, or swap the preamp out for one with a mid and mid frequency adjust. But I just thought is it really worth the hassle when I can start an effects chain on the Zoom B3n with a seven band eq?

 

Thanks!

[itu]

Background: you already have three eqs. Have you learned to use them?

 

Basic use:

1) in bass adjustments can be done even during song, because they are at hand

2) pedal or other fx - on the floor beside you, and ON/OFF available

3) amp has a powerful eq, but if the amp is further away, quick changes are not a breeze

 

If you need/want to change sounds a lot and quickly, consider using options 1 and 2.

 

You should still learn the amp's possibilities, and tweak the eq a lot to get the best out of it. You could then take the knobs away, find your sound, and put them back in to point midday. That would be your starting point from now on. Repeat with the bass and the pedal individually.

 

I do use all three: bass, pedal, and amp. Bass is for quick changes. Parametric pedal is for HP filtering, and eqing the sound to fit the space I am playing in (to cut boominess, for example). The last in line, the amp, produces the basic sound, that can be tweaked with previous eqs mentioned.

 

If you aren't happy with the sound after all trials, you may have to consider a different instrument, or preamp, or pedal, or amp, or everything.

Edited September 6 by itu

[NancyJohnson]

Personally, the better perspective would be to have a mid/mid frequency-sweep stack on the bass; this way you're in control over what hits your amp/board.

[DocTrucker]

Thanks, I appreciate your input, but I don't think I did a very good job at raising my question there. Let me have another go.

 

Is there any difference in end result between setting the bass dials neutral and adjusting EQ on the board, and changing the dials on the bass? I appreciate that any tone shaping results in a partial loss of the original tone and tones manipulated earlier in a signal chain can't be corrected back to faithfully recover the original tone.

 

When dials are set at noon what makes a bad preamp? Excessive noise would be an obvious. Is it just an excessive colouring of the pure tone? I'm hesitant from saying acoustic tone as I don't want to imply double bass as we do have more trebble content than a typical double bass.

 

I've severe asymetric hearing loss and experience occasional changes on my good side too. My hearing is likely is easily saturated on stage even with hearing protection. When playing I'm often reduced to hearing my timing, and if I've hit the right note or not.

 

I aim to get my tone as locked in as possible in my home environment coming out of my Zoom B3n multi effects processor. On stage adjustments will be predominantly correcting for the effects of the playing environment, often guided by others.

 

As my playing and EQing/effects voodoo develops I'll invest in a more recent multi effects system. For the time being I'm learning the ropes with the B3n. Any recomendations for good reads on signal chain work to help me hit the ground running would be welcomed!

Edited September 7 by DocTrucker
Reducing length of post.

[Doctor J]

Everything has its own tonal stamp, so I generally don't use amp EQ and I don't really use effect pedals. I like sound of the bass I'm playing without a load of crap in the way. I prefer using the onboard EQ as it allows the sound of different basses shine through without a preset change being applied by the amp too. On a two-band EQ, if I want more mid, I turn down the bass and treble and/or often change where my plucking hand is on the string to change tonal properties. Not sure if this is what you're looking for.

[itu]

A non coloured amp (or cab) is mostly fiction in live use. You like the sound of the amp or not. If eq solves most of the problems, fine.

 

All adjustments in your signal chain are there for your sound. It is true that some can raise noise levels, but most of the noise is usually hidden at stage volumes.

 

As bass preamps have become better, I do not see any reason not to use them, too. You can check John East and you are getting close to studio quality. An "active bass" preamp may be one or two cheap opamps and a passive blend. Not to talk about carbon track pots... but if you neglect some noise and benefit from the flexibility, I see no reason to not use an onboard pre.

 

Again, please do trials with the equipment you already have. It may be so that some eq and compression may introduce you to the sound you have in your head.

[Boodang]

Just use a 7 band eq on your pedal board, simple. More versatile & cheaper than onboard, plus any bass you have can use it. Get something like the Source Audio EQ and you’ll have presets to recall. 

[NancyJohnson]

Whether this is right or wrong, I don't know, but years ago one of the guys doing our live sound said if you want to use mids do it from the bass as you simply 'can't produce modulation for a frequency that doesn't exist'.

 

This stayed with me since; if you squirt your desired tone to an amp from say a Jazz bass, your tone control is simply open (pickups open, unaffected) or the high frequency is being cut (thus rolling off the highs).  In theory any mids produced away from the source are simply emulations as they don't exist in the original signal source.

 

I guess this leads on to the active circuit argument; there's John East units installed on several of my basses, all have a midsweep frequency/boost control.  Used sparingly, this'll allow your tone to cut through the mix.  It works significantly better than any outboard tweaking.

[ezbass]

1 hour ago, NancyJohnson said:

Whether this is right or wrong, I don't know, but years ago one of the guys doing our live sound said if you want to use mids do it from the bass as you simply 'can't produce modulation for a frequency that doesn't exist'.

True, but this applies to boosting anywhere, on bass, a pedal or amp. If a particular frequency isn’t there you can’t boost it. However, the frequencies are there, or at least a band of them, they may not just be as prominent as other frequencies, thus the ability to boost (or cut) from anywhere in the chain. At least that’s how I understand it. It’s like trying to process a photograph where certain blacks or whites are blown or blacked out, there’s no info there to manipulate. Fortunately, the likelihood of the total absence of any bandwidth is very unlikely.

Edited September 7 by ezbass

[Boodang]

52 minutes ago, NancyJohnson said:

Whether this is right or wrong, I don't know, but years ago one of the guys doing our live sound said if you want to use mids do it from the bass as you simply 'can't produce modulation for a frequency that doesn't exist'.

 

This stayed with me since; if you squirt your desired tone to an amp from say a Jazz bass, your tone control is simply open (pickups open, unaffected) or the high frequency is being cut (thus rolling off the highs).  In theory any mids produced away from the source are simply emulations as they don't exist in the original signal source.

 

I guess this leads on to the active circuit argument; there's John East units installed on several of my basses, all have a midsweep frequency/boost control.  Used sparingly, this'll allow your tone to cut through the mix.  It works significantly better than any outboard tweaking.

There seems to be a common misconception that onboard eq somehow works with the bass in some magic way that an amp or pedal can’t. Electrically there’s no real difference between a short wire from a pickup to a slightly longer one to an amp or pedal (cable capacitance aside for these short distances). The electronics don’t know where they are located. 
One of the downsides of onboard preamps is size and power constraints. An amp, pedal or rack doesn’t have such limitations. Send a signal straight from your bass (blend pups to suit, no other eq) to your amp, pedal or rack and you’ve potential got more control. 
However, like anything it’s all in the ears. If you like the sound of an onboard eq then you’re sorted. But eq’ing off bass has no downsides either. Whatever frequencies are produced by your bass will be present at the amp, pedal or rack equipment for you to manipulate. 

[BigRedX]

1 minute ago, Boodang said:

There seems to be a common misconception that onboard eq somehow works with the bass in some magic way that an amp or pedal can’t. Electrically there’s no real difference between a short wire from a pickup to a slightly longer one to an amp or pedal (cable capacitance aside for these short distances). The electronics don’t know where they are located. 
One of the downsides of onboard preamps is size and power constraints. An amp, pedal or rack doesn’t have such limitations. Send a signal straight from your bass (blend pups to suit, no other eq) to your amp, pedal or rack and you’ve potential got more control. 
However, like anything it’s all in the ears. If you like the sound of an onboard eq then you’re sorted. But eq’ing off bass has no downsides either. Whatever frequencies are produced by your bass will be present at the amp, pedal or rack equipment for you to manipulate. 

 

Some on-board pre-amps are designed specifically to work with the pickups(s) fitted notably the original MusicMan Stingray and Wal basses, and some (again the Wal and also the ACG filter designs) allow you to change the tone of each pickup separately so they won't have the same effect downstream of the bass after the pickups have been summed together.

 

However best practice IME is to be making specific electronic EQ adjustments in a single place in your signal chain, so now I have ditched as many of the elements that impose unwanted "character" to my sound as possible and do everything from a Line6 Helix. This feeds directly into the PA with an FRFR cab for personal monitoring at gigs where the foldback isn't up to the job.

 

TBH I'm not a big fan of controls on the bass itself apart from maybe a properly functioning volume control volume control that blends smoothly between silent and full volume. I am of the opinion that the band will sound better with bass having slightly the wrong tone than with no bass it all because I am trying to "dial in" the correct sound from my on-board controls. Besides getting the right bass sound (if required and since I've been using programmable effects I've never needed to adjust my sound on stage mid-gig) is part of the purpose of having a sound check.

[Boodang]

4 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

 

Some on-board pre-amps are designed specifically to work with the pickups(s) fitted notably the original MusicMan Stingray and Wal basses, and some (again the Wal and also the ACG filter designs) allow you to change the tone of each pickup separately so they won't have the same effect downstream of the bass after the pickups have been summed together.

 

However best practice IME is to be making specific electronic EQ adjustments in a single place in your signal chain, so now I have ditched as many of the elements that impose unwanted "character" to my sound as possible and do everything from a Line6 Helix. This feeds directly into the PA with an FRFR cab for personal monitoring at gigs where the foldback isn't up to the job.

 

TBH I'm not a big fan of controls on the bass itself apart from maybe a properly functioning volume control volume control that blends smoothly between silent and full volume. I am of the opinion that the band will sound better with bass having slightly the wrong tone than with no bass it all because I am trying to "dial in" the correct sound from my on-board controls. Besides getting the right bass sound (if required and since I've been using programmable effects I've never needed to adjust my sound on stage mid-gig) is part of the purpose of having a sound check.

In a similar move I now do all processing off bass with an xr18. It’s small but gives me access to classic compressors, eq’s and effects plus a full parametric eq if I want it. I bought the xr to use live and recording with a band but I’ve got so attached to the processing power, and the sound I get from the processor modelling, that I use it when it’s just for me… including when I’m out with the ekit. 

[DocTrucker]

Thanks all. Refreshing to know I wasn't barking up the wrong tree. Still lost when it comes to setting up the simulated pedals though. Is there any good resources/books on this or just seach for demos of each stomp box my effect unit emulates?

Edited September 7 by DocTrucker

[DocTrucker]

2 hours ago, itu said:

A non coloured amp (or cab) is mostly fiction in live use. You like the sound of the amp or not. If eq solves most of the problems, fine.

 

 

An interesting thought that. You could monitor input and output signals to ensure the amp is scaling the signal equally for all - or more precisely many descrete - frequencies, but as soon as you chuck that into a cabinet you're at the mercy of the responce of the cones and the behaviour of any cross overs.

 

I guess you could easily loose a lifetime to finding a monitor grade amp and speaker setup!

[tauzero]

1 hour ago, Boodang said:

There seems to be a common misconception that onboard eq somehow works with the bass in some magic way that an amp or pedal can’t. Electrically there’s no real difference between a short wire from a pickup to a slightly longer one to an amp or pedal (cable capacitance aside for these short distances). The electronics don’t know where they are located. 

 

However, if you remove something early in the signal chain, you can't get it back later on. The order matters, the location doesn't.

 

I find that I do the tone shaping with an effects pedal, with the only use of amp controls being to reduce bass if necessary, and the controls on the bass left flat.

[ezbass]

I think the main advantage of an on board preamp, other than those designed to produce a specific ‘brand’ tone as @BigRedX points out, is the ability to adjust on the fly. Back when I used on board preamps and a wireless, I would go out into the space during soundcheck and adjust to taste from there. My current set up do passive Mustang doesn’t seem to need much eq from my setup (drive tone notwithstanding), just a little low end cut on my Phil Jones rig, with the other frequencies flat. Works for me.