Fretboard knowledge

[Eight]

Pay more attention to what you're doing in practice time. The only way I've managed to learn the notes that I have done is to pay attention to what the notes actually are when I'm playing stuff for fun.

And practice more scales. I love scales - boring as sin to play but playing them up and down the fretboard really beats the pants off sitting trying to learn each note on paper.

Having said that,

[url="http://www.musictheory.net/trainers/html/id81_en.html"]http://www.musictheory.net/trainers/html/id81_en.html[/url]

[jakenewmanbass]

I think it depends on your approach, if you want to play with a high proportion of improvisation in your parts then fretboard knowledge is useful...
If you want to learn parts by rote and nail them then a knowledge (of the note names) is irrelevant...

I would say, however, that the knowledge that is most important is an aural one, theoretical (or note name) knowledge helps when explaining to others or working theoretical correctitude into your pallette, but the final test is an aural one and to that extent I regard aural awareness of the notes as the single MOST important aspect of one's own playing.

[Johngh]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='497473' date='May 25 2009, 07:23 PM']I think it depends on your approach, if you want to play with a high proportion of improvisation in your parts then fretboard knowledge is useful...
If you want to learn parts by rote and nail them then a knowledge (of the note names) is irrelevant...

I would say, however, that the knowledge that is most important is an aural one, theoretical (or note name) knowledge helps when explaining to others or working theoretical correctitude into your pallette, but the final test is an aural one and to that extent I regard aural awareness of the notes as the single MOST important aspect of one's own playing.[/quote]


Good post Jake, I agree with this. I've been playing for years, fretboard knowledge has come naturally over time, but I have good "ears" so can learn tunes easily and 99% of the time my fingers fall on the correct note after only 2 or 3 times of hearing a tune.

[AM1]

[quote name='Eight' post='497449' date='May 25 2009, 06:49 PM']Pay more attention to what you're doing in practice time. The only way I've managed to learn the notes that I have done is to pay attention to what the notes actually are when I'm playing stuff for fun.

And practice more scales. I love scales - boring as sin to play but playing them up and down the fretboard really beats the pants off sitting trying to learn each note on paper.

Having said that,

[url="http://www.musictheory.net/trainers/html/id81_en.html"]http://www.musictheory.net/trainers/html/id81_en.html[/url][/quote]

I haven't got much time just now for that kind of practice, too much band whoring is taking up most of my practice time just now but it will calm down after June, but I'm trying to line up stuff to work on in advance. The scales thing is SOO important yes, by the way, I recommend a book called "Serious Electric Bass"by Joel Di Bartolo - I just got it last week, absolutely outstanding book, you would love it, it's in notation too.

I need to get a life really, I thought I was obsessive with my other hobbies, but I'm taking it to a new level with bass! This seriously cannot be healthy!

Edited May 25, 2009 by AM1

[Eight]

[quote name='AM1' post='497503' date='May 25 2009, 08:01 PM']This seriously cannot be healthy![/quote]
Oh I dunno. If there's something you enjoy then what could be healthier than spending lots of time doing it? God knows we all spend enough time doing things we don't enjoy.

[funkypenguin]

If you want to expand on what you already know and improve/branch out on the way you play, IMHO fretboard knowledge is the best place to start.

Just how deep into fretboard harmony you want to get into is up to you. but a few things you may want to look at...

Learn your scales. major, minor (harmonic and melodic), diminished and whole tone, all through 2 octaves

run your scales up and down the fretboard (its a good warmup if nothing else!)

Learn your modes

try and apply all this to your improvising (it wont happen overnight!)

i never know all the notes im playing in an improvision (thinking more solo based here), but i know what sorts of things are going to work, what sorts of scales are going to work, and where i want to go with the improvised line.

If its a bass figure, say a walking line, i tend to know what notes im playing, mainly because they are far more important harmonically.

Hope this helps!

[AM1]

[quote name='funkypenguin' post='497506' date='May 25 2009, 08:05 PM']If you want to expand on what you already know and improve/branch out on the way you play, IMHO fretboard knowledge is the best place to start.

Just how deep into fretboard harmony you want to get into is up to you. but a few things you may want to look at...

Learn your scales. major, minor (harmonic and melodic), diminished and whole tone, all through 2 octaves

run your scales up and down the fretboard (its a good warmup if nothing else!)

Learn your modes[/quote]

Hi - that's exactly what I've been working on, particuarly the two octave stuff, which is really opening up the fretboard playing wise.

[quote name='funkypenguin' post='497506' date='May 25 2009, 08:05 PM']try and apply all this to your improvising (it wont happen overnight!)

i never know all the notes im playing in an improvision (thinking more solo based here), but i know what sorts of things are going to work, what sorts of scales are going to work, and where i want to go with the improvised line.

If its a bass figure, say a walking line, i tend to know what notes im playing, mainly because they are [b]far more important harmonically.[/b][/quote]

Now we are getting to exactly what I am talking about. An example...if I would want to play a swing jazz line over a blues progression, then just knowing patterns doesn't really cut it. So, for example on a quarter note walking bassline, if I was following root, 3rd, 5th, 7th model, there's lots of stuff that can be done to spice it up as long as hitting the root note on the downbeat of the chord change happens..i.e. keeping the foundation that the harmonic structure depends upon...but say I wanted to keep ascending for a while on top of this basic foundation before coming back down for the turnaround..just knowing patterns won't really work.

Edited May 25, 2009 by AM1

[ZMech]

I think this has already been said, but i'll put in my contribution anyway. Whilst i'm by no means an expert (yet), my mate who's a musical freak on the piano recommended I do interval recognition training. By this I mean I'm now after a month or so getting to the point where in my head I can hear one note after another and know it's a minor third, after which i know its just a 3 fret gap to play what I heard. Whilst I haven't yet gotten it up to the speed that my mate has, since he's been doing it for about 10 years and can go up to a gap of 3 octaves or so, I can now work out a bassline I hear in my head much faster than I used to be able to, although not yet fast enough to play whilst I think.


[quote name='AM1' post='497363' date='May 25 2009, 04:18 PM']instantaneous knowledge[/quote]
instantaneous? what happened to practice practice practice?

[leschirons]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='497473' date='May 25 2009, 06:23 PM']I think it depends on your approach, if you want to play with a high proportion of improvisation in your parts then fretboard knowledge is useful...
If you want to learn parts by rote and nail them then a knowledge (of the note names) is irrelevant...

I would say, however, that the knowledge that is most important is an aural one, theoretical (or note name) knowledge helps when explaining to others or working theoretical correctitude into your pallette, but the final test is an aural one and to that extent I regard aural awareness of the notes as the single MOST important aspect of one's own playing.[/quote]

Spot on. I can name every note on a fretboard (guitar or bass) but am not aware of that at the time of playing. When I learn a song, it comes very quickly what I need to play and if I fancy messing around a bit on stage within a number, I seem to know what to do when I know which chord is coming next but don't seem to think too much about it. Yes aural awareness and training is the key. IMO.

[funkypenguin]

[quote name='AM1' post='497512' date='May 25 2009, 08:14 PM']Hi - that's exactly what I've been working on, particuarly the two octave stuff, which is really opening up the fretboard playing wise.



Now we are getting to exactly what I am talking about. An example...if I would want to play a swing jazz line over a blues progression, then just knowing patterns doesn't really cut it. So, for example on a quarter note walking bassline, if I was following root, 3rd, 5th, 7th model, there's lots of stuff that can be done to spice it up as long as hitting the root note on the downbeat of the chord change happens..i.e. keeping the foundation that the harmonic structure depends upon...but say I wanted to keep ascending for a while on top of this basic foundation before coming back down for the turnaround..just knowing patterns won't really work.[/quote]

if its jazz you're thinking about, then there are many other things to consider (i am by no means a jazz expert on the bass). as a bassist in the jazz ensemble your primary role is to lay down the harmony, but you dont just have to stick to arpeggios and scales. alot of what you play depends on the nature of the chart, the era, the style, and if you're backing a soloist, how adventurous he/she is being (in moving in and out of the harmony through related/unrelated keys/modes etc.).

for example, if the soloist is moving outside the harmony alot, then you may play a very chromatic bass line, still moving around the chord structure, but with little/no emphasis on the root, 3rd, 5th.

or, if they are really sticking to the harmony on the leadsheet, then you may wish to build your bass line around the relevant scales/arpeggios.

Its really experience more than anything that teaches you to play this type of bass. Il be here for a few days explaining the ins and outs of fretboard harmony and walking bass. how well do you know your chords and movement over chord changes for example? can you spot a cycle of 5ths progression in a lead sheet?

if youve a few quid, buy a jazz Realbook and 'building walking bass lines' by ed friedland. these are both excellent tools for getting your fretboards knowledge up to scratch. always remember. this knowledge can be applied to any form of music, not just jazz!

Have fun!

oh btw. check this out! my personal favourite big band chart amazing bass work. patituccis solo is one of the best ive ever seen in ANY genre. end of

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMPZ75wQOt0"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMPZ75wQOt0[/url]

Edited May 25, 2009 by funkypenguin

[AM1]

[quote name='Zach' post='497519' date='May 25 2009, 08:20 PM']I think this has already been said, but i'll put in my contribution anyway. Whilst i'm by no means an expert (yet), my mate who's a musical freak on the piano recommended I do interval recognition training. By this I mean I'm now after a month or so getting to the point where in my head I can hear one note after another and know it's a minor third, after which i know its just a 3 fret gap to play what I heard. Whilst I haven't yet gotten it up to the speed that my mate has, since he's been doing it for about 10 years and can go up to a gap of 3 octaves or so, I can now work out a bassline I hear in my head much faster than I used to be able to, although not yet fast enough to play whilst I think.[/quote]

Yeah - I can sing intervals or even heard them in my head then play them on the bass..that's partly why I can get away with often not having a clue what notes I'm playing. When I hear chord changes, I can tell what the interval change is a lot of the time. But that does take years, it did in my case too.

[quote name='Zach' post='497519' date='May 25 2009, 08:20 PM']instantaneous? what happened to practice practice practice? [/quote]

I mean instantaneously knowing what a note is when I fret it, rather than having to keep working it out or worse still, never really bothering as long as it sounds right haha. In the studio last night, guitards were playing a descending chromatic sequence, this was on the fly for me and from the chords they gave me, I had a number of choices, but without knowing the notes on the fretboard, then I had to think hard to work it out..a bit of dissonance/suspense is ok if you can resolve it in the next chord, but that's an exception rather than the rule!

Edited May 25, 2009 by AM1

[51m0n]

[url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50170"]http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50170[/url]

Pacman's sure-fire scale practice method

If you dont know your fretboard after this lot (and in a useful way) you are dead from the neck up (pun intended)



Now get to work!

[funkypenguin]

[quote name='51m0n' post='498744' date='May 27 2009, 01:59 PM'][url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50170"]http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50170[/url]

Pacman's sure-fire scale practice method

If you dont know your fretboard after this lot (and in a useful way) you are dead from the neck up (pun intended)



Now get to work![/quote]

OT here...but your avatar is immense!

[AM1]

[quote name='51m0n' post='498744' date='May 27 2009, 01:59 PM'][url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50170"]http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50170[/url]

Pacman's sure-fire scale practice method

If you dont know your fretboard after this lot (and in a useful way) you are dead from the neck up (pun intended)



Now get to work![/quote]

Ello mate!

Just had a look - excellent resource - many thanks! That's actually a brilliant exercise as you're kind of forced to figure out the notes and think about where they are. I really must stop playing by ear so much!

I don't know where you dredge up all these gruesome exercises from, but you've single-handedly killed what was left of my social life!

You really are a git, in the nicest possible way!

The only thing is...how do you know what fingers to use when practicing in the way described in that exercise?

Cheers
AM

[funkypenguin]

[quote name='AM1' post='498759' date='May 27 2009, 02:08 PM']Ello mate!

Just had a look - excellent resource - many thanks! That's actually a brilliant exercise as you're kind of forced to figure out the notes and think about where they are. I really must stop playing by ear so much!

I don't know where you dredge up all these gruesome exercises from, but you've single-handedly killed what was left of my social life!

You really are a git, in the nicest possible way!

The only thing is...how do you know what fingers to use when practicing in the way described in that exercise?

Cheers
AM[/quote]

use the one finger per fret principle. on scalic patterns you should never have to stretch too far, even in first position, unless you're going through 2 - 4 octaves and hence shifting your hand position. bear that in mind

[51m0n]

[quote name='funkypenguin' post='498758' date='May 27 2009, 02:08 PM']OT here...but your avatar is immense! [/quote]

Uh-huh thanyewverrmuchhh (in best Elvis voice)

Dreadlock kicks arse, Khaos rulez OK!

[AM1]

[quote name='funkypenguin' post='498790' date='May 27 2009, 02:31 PM']use the one finger per fret principle. on scalic patterns you should never have to stretch too far, even in first position, unless you're going through 2 - 4 octaves and hence shifting your hand position. bear that in mind [/quote]

I have to pivot my wrist a bit to be able to do 1 finger per fret on the lower frets as I haven't got enough reach..well I can just about do it but I feel too much of a stretch.

In fact since I've been working more on scales, I am noticing some aching down on the karate chop side of my left hand.

[51m0n]

[quote name='AM1' post='498759' date='May 27 2009, 02:08 PM']Ello mate!

Just had a look - excellent resource - many thanks! That's actually a brilliant exercise as you're kind of forced to figure out the notes and think about where they are. I really must stop playing by ear so much!

I don't know where you dredge up all these gruesome exercises from, but you've single-handedly killed what was left of my social life!

You really are a git, in the nicest possible way!

The only thing is...how do you know what fingers to use when practicing in the way described in that exercise?

Cheers
AM[/quote]

Alright chuck!

1 finger per fret works a lot

Also try and use open strings to help shift up more easily. So in the key of C play EFG on the E string, open A, then BCD on the E string then E on the A string etc etc Helps cover ground.

Where necessary it can help sometimes to develop the ability to play two whole tones on one string, using fingers 1,2 and 4. SO to play G->A->B on the E string as an alternative way of playing the first three notes of G major.

Finally as a general strategy for shifts if you get to the pinky and need to stay on the same string then move your hand such that your index is used to play the next note rather than shuffling the pinky up a couple of frets, It means you always play a whole tone half tone, or half tone whole tone or whole tone whole tone pattern for each move of the hand. Naturally there may be exceptions to this 'rule'!

I only wish I had the time to devote to these exercises as much as I do in finding them, I'd be blinding if I did!

Personally I have taken the pattern knowledge thing about as far as I think it can be taken (including Gary Willis' fingerboard harmony book, which is a complete swine to get your head around). I've recently been looking at reading and fingerboard note knowledge properly as a way to open my playing up further. I can not emphasise how much just working on C major scales all over the neck has helped me already.

I think pattern stuff is an easy trap we subject ourselves to as a result of the fourths tuned nature of bass. Clearly a great ear is the best thing to have, but a full and extensive knowledge of the fingerboard in a harmonically meaningful manner must be an equal goal if you want to be able to just play the thing. Naturally IMO, and if I put loads of effort into this and it doesnt make a great deal of a difference I reserve the right to debunk myself later

[funkypenguin]

[quote name='AM1' post='498819' date='May 27 2009, 02:44 PM']I have to pivot my wrist a bit to be able to do 1 finger per fret on the lower frets as I haven't got enough reach..well I can just about do it but I feel too much of a stretch.

In fact since I've been working more on scales, I am noticing some aching down on the karate chop side of my left hand.[/quote]

you should try playing my 6! then you'd know all about pivoting your wrist for 1st fret!

it sounds to me (not to split hairs) that your left hand needs conditioning. scales are a very good way to do it. start at 1st fret and play a one octave major scale ascending and descending, then move to 2nd and so on until you get to 13th fret, then come all the way down. then move to the A string and do the same. start with a REALLY slow tempo and gradually build it up (around 60bpm if you use a metronome?). slower excercises do a lot to improve your hand strength. DON'T PUSH TOO HARD! if it gets painful (as in really starts to ache) stop the excersise, take 5, then start again. youl soon notice an improvement. do things like this every day before you start jamming songs or begin songwriting, and youl find your playing improves very quickly

FWIW - it was a shock when i switched to 6, just how weak my left hand was. took a lot of hours to get it up to scratch

[funkypenguin]

[quote name='51m0n' post='498803' date='May 27 2009, 02:36 PM']Uh-huh thanyewverrmuchhh (in best Elvis voice)

Dreadlock kicks arse, Khaos rulez OK!

[/quote]

love it!

[51m0n]

[quote name='AM1' post='498819' date='May 27 2009, 02:44 PM']I have to pivot my wrist a bit to be able to do 1 finger per fret on the lower frets as I haven't got enough reach..well I can just about do it but I feel too much of a stretch.

In fact since I've been working more on scales, I am noticing some aching down on the karate chop side of my left hand.[/quote]

I bet you have enough reach. You may not realise how to maximise your reach safely. Or the height of your bass is impeding your reach.

I have small to average sized hands for a bloke, and I can reach from an F to A on the E string of a 34" bass fairly comfortably (index to pinky)

However I think that it would be very hard for me to try and explain how to do this over the internet - its the job of a teacher in person I think. To much risk of misunderstanding causing you to do it wrong and possibly hurt yourself.

[AM1]

[quote name='funkypenguin' post='498833' date='May 27 2009, 02:56 PM']you should try playing my 6! then you'd know all about pivoting your wrist for 1st fret!

it sounds to me (not to split hairs) that your left hand needs conditioning. scales are a very good way to do it. start at 1st fret and play a one octave major scale ascending and descending, then move to 2nd and so on until you get to 13th fret, then come all the way down. then move to the A string and do the same. start with a REALLY slow tempo and gradually build it up (around 60bpm if you use a metronome?). slower excercises do a lot to improve your hand strength. DON'T PUSH TOO HARD! if it gets painful (as in really starts to ache) stop the excersise, take 5, then start again. youl soon notice an improvement. do things like this every day before you start jamming songs or begin songwriting, and youl find your playing improves very quickly

FWIW - it was a shock when i switched to 6, just how weak my left hand was. took a lot of hours to get it up to scratch[/quote]

Yes, I think you're right...I can definitely feel more strength coming into my fingers over time, it just seems SO slow! Maybe I'm unrealistic about progress/speed.

Bass in hand as we speak...there's something really satisfying about wasting the day playing bass instead of paying for MP's moats!

But yeah I do keep stopping and resting it when it aches.

HAHA!

[51m0n]

With a really well set up bass its more about comfortable use of your fingers at a stretch than raw strength.

This is all about 'proper' ie safe/good LH technique, and goes hand in hand with your damping issues as well I think.

1 finger per fret exercises from 12 down to 1 are great too, as they can slowly make you stretch further.

I would always suggest anyone interested in stretch work from higher to lower rather than the other way around, that way you progressively increase the distance you need to reach.

[funkypenguin]

[quote name='AM1' post='498857' date='May 27 2009, 03:12 PM']Yes, I think you're right...I can definitely feel more strength coming into my fingers over time, it just seems SO slow! Maybe I'm unrealistic about progress/speed.

Bass in hand as we speak...there's something really satisfying about wasting the day playing bass instead of paying for MP's moats!

But yeah I do keep stopping and resting it when it aches.

HAHA![/quote]

slow and steady wins the race. practice consistently and you'll see the improvement soon enough

you must have the biggest small hands around mate if you've got a stretch like that!!

[AM1]

[quote name='51m0n' post='498856' date='May 27 2009, 03:11 PM']I bet you have enough reach. You may not realise how to maximise your reach safely. Or the height of your bass is impeding your reach.

I have small to average sized hands for a bloke, and I can reach from an F to A on the E string of a 34" bass fairly comfortably (index to pinky)

However I think that it would be very hard for me to try and explain how to do this over the internet - its the job of a teacher in person I think. To much risk of misunderstanding causing you to do it wrong and possibly hurt yourself.[/quote]

I know you are probably right..but I'm being very careful about overstretching without knowing how...as you said....it's better to err on the side of caution.

Incidentally...I moved the height of my bass earlier in the week and it has made a MASSIVE difference to my left hand dexterity but now killing my left shoulder! I was in the studio for 4 hours on Sunday evening with a band that does not do breaks..so we pretty much played solid for the whole time. Next day my shoulder and the muscle in the left side on the middle of my back was well aching!

It's really quite amazing what a difference just a few small adjustments can make. The other thing is now my wrist is bent a lot more. There is so much conflicting advice regarding the correct wrist position. But for sure, having the left wrist bent more certainly has improved my reach. Ha, but at what cost, I'm sure I'll find out next week!