Guts prices

[Beedster]

So, I took of my Gamuts last week for an experiment that didn’t really work, and realised while putting them back on that they are pretty worn and might need to go into the spares bag. I checked out the set I have online and it comes in at over £700 all told, in part due to them being made to order, in part due to customs etc (none of the UK stockists have had any for several months).  So I thought I’ll get some Lenzners from Thomann - not my fave guts but still pretty decent - but was gobsmacked to see that even they’re coming in at close to £500 now, the last time I bought a set they were £200 and it doesn’t seem all that long ago, at the time IIRC they were cheaper than some of the steel/hybrid strings, now a whole lot more expensive. Is there a global gut shortage or something, or is this just how it is now? 

 

 

[Marc S]

Wow. That's some price rise! Have you ever compared / played any of the synthetic strings that are supposed to be like Gut strings? I recently got a used set of Innovation Silver Slaps, and instantly remembered how much I like them. How do they compare with real Gut strings? Mind you, my first set of Innovations cost £100 - now they're double that.... but still cheaper than gut. Are there any other synthetic strings that are more Gut-like?

[Burns-bass]

Crazy stuff. 

[Beedster]

15 minutes ago, Marc S said:

Wow. That's some price rise! Have you ever compared / played any of the synthetic strings that are supposed to be like Gut strings? I recently got a used set of Innovation Silver Slaps, and instantly remembered how much I like them. How do they compare with real Gut strings? Mind you, my first set of Innovations cost £100 - now they're double that.... but still cheaper than gut. Are there any other synthetic strings that are more Gut-like?

 

Guts have mystique for a reason, I guess that mystique is starting to cost. Silver Slaps are fine strings, but they're not guts 👍

[Beer of the Bass]

I guess they're an extremely niche product these days. I always feel fortunate that my all-time favourite double bass sounds that I aspire towards are almost all from steel string players (usually Spirocores, some probably on Lycons historically). Even the new wave of allegedly gut-like synthetic core strings are getting further from that.

I've been somewhat intrigued by Charlie Haden's sound with nylon wrapped gut G and D over Spirocores, but the poor bow response of the nylon wrapped strings deters me from investigating further.

[Happy Jack]

It all rather focuses the mind on why anyone needs guts in 2024.

 

Playing low-volume acoustically there's no real doubt in my mind that guts sound simply sublime, and are a pleasure to play. Introduce any amplification worth mentioning and the benefits start to slip gradually away, until you reach gig volume where you're feeling the notes as much as you hear them and the material used to make the string becomes of very limited interest.

 

And then you go and spoil it all by saying something stupid like "but what about other people?". Ah yes, other people. your band members, other musos in the audience, bar staff, punters, drunks ... what do they hear, what do they notice? We've all answered tougher questions than that, right?

 

I could afford the £700 if I needed to, if I spent my hours in recording sessions at Air Studios and if the sound would be valued and appreciated, but I'm a pub/club player. Seriously - what's the point?

 

 

[Beedster]

11 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

It all rather focuses the mind on why anyone needs guts in 2024.

 

Playing low-volume acoustically there's no real doubt in my mind that guts sound simply sublime, and are a pleasure to play. Introduce any amplification worth mentioning and the benefits start to slip gradually away, until you reach gig volume where you're feeling the notes as much as you hear them and the material used to make the string becomes of very limited interest.

 

And then you go and spoil it all by saying something stupid like "but what about other people?". Ah yes, other people. your band members, other musos in the audience, bar staff, punters, drunks ... what do they hear, what do they notice? We've all answered tougher questions than that, right?

 

I could afford the £700 if I needed to, if I spent my hours in recording sessions at Air Studios and if the sound would be valued and appreciated, but I'm a pub/club player. Seriously - what's the point?

 

 

 

All very good points mate, I play first and foremost for my own pleasure, and will also be recording some self-penned double bass jazzy stuff next year, otherwise you're bang on with the points above. Having said that we also rehearse unamplified as a band. But yes, on gigs I find it a problem, hence my failed experiment with Spiros and a Krivo last week 👍 

[Beedster]

21 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

It all rather focuses the mind on why anyone needs two aluminium double basses in 2024.

 

But fixed it for you anyway Jack 😃

[Happy Jack]

Jealousy will get you nowhere, mate ...

 

😂😂😂

[Beedster]

2 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

Jealousy will get you nowhere, mate ...

 

😂😂😂

 

Must admit I came very close to buying the Alcoa, problem with the Pfretzschner I had for a while was that it was so much smaller than my other bass, the Alcoa might have fit the bill a little more 👍

[Happy Jack]

Certainly has a helluva lot fewer teeny-weeny little screws. 

[Beer of the Bass]

39 minutes ago, Beedster said:

 

All very good points mate, I play first and foremost for my own pleasure, and will also be recording some self-penned double bass jazzy stuff next year, otherwise you're bang on with the points above. Having said that we also rehearse unamplified as a band. But yes, on gigs I find it a problem, hence my failed experiment with Spiros and a Krivo last week 👍 

 

I'm having the "who do you play for" thoughts also, ironically in the other direction tonewise. Currently the only actual paying gigs I might get are with a friend doing gypsy jazz stuff where a gut string bass sound would be entirely appropriate. I also do some free improv stuff where frankly any type of bass sound could be workable and appreciated.

But I'm steadfastly sticking with my sort of 60s-modern sustainy pizz sound and approach just because that's the sound I've gravitated towards.

[Beedster]

2 minutes ago, Beer of the Bass said:

 

I'm having the "who do you play for" thoughts also, ironically in the other direction tonewise. Currently the only actual paying gigs I might get are with a friend doing gypsy jazz stuff where a gut string bass sound would be entirely appropriate. I also do some free improv stuff where frankly any type of bass sound could be workable and appreciated.

But I'm steadfastly sticking with my sort of 60s-modern sustainy pizz sound and approach just because that's the sound I've gravitated towards.

 

Yep, but isn't it good to know what sound you want and how to get it/keep it, I know quite a few musicians who struggle with both sides of the equation 👍

[Duckyincarnate]

Ooof, that's a steep increase. For many years, I ran two Lenzners on G and D, and two Innovation Honeys on E and A. When I started using these strings around 2010, a full replacement set would cost me around £120. Gradually that went up to about £160. I have been strictly on Spiros for the last 5 years (and hopefully for the rest of my life), so this is really shocking to hear. For this kind of money, you would be better off buying a full set of Olives imho. 

[Paddy Morris]

Have you tried those Global Gut Indian strings from Etsy? The E, A are too flappy to be of much use,  but the D, G are great.  They have a lovely tone and feel very satisfying under the fingers.  And they're cheap enough that you can afford to buy something more expensive for the lower strings.

 

But I mean, if you love Gamuts and can afford Gamuts, then get Gamuts.  It's worth spending money on something that makes you enjoy your life, right?

[Beedster]

55 minutes ago, Paddy Morris said:

Have you tried those Global Gut Indian strings from Etsy? The E, A are too flappy to be of much use,  but the D, G are great.  They have a lovely tone and feel very satisfying under the fingers.  And they're cheap enough that you can afford to buy something more expensive for the lower strings.

 

But I mean, if you love Gamuts and can afford Gamuts, then get Gamuts.  It's worth spending money on something that makes you enjoy your life, right?

 

Thanks Paddy, might give them a go, a couple of guys on TB have commented that they're worth a look also 👍

[keeponehandloose]

I had one of the G string Indian guts as a spare. It was quite a bit lower in volume when amplified compared to the rest of the Lenzners on the bass.

 

Edited September 26 by keeponehandloose

[miles'tone]

Not true gut but I have an unopened set of new Aquila Gold Springs synthetic guts (based on the old Golden Spirals which I'm sure you know) that I'm going to sell at a discount. My upright needs a full set up which I need to fund first.

PM me if you're interested (I'm fully paid up on here btw).

[Bloopdad1]

On 17/09/2024 at 10:34, Happy Jack said:

It all rather focuses the mind on why anyone needs guts in 2024.

 

Playing low-volume acoustically there's no real doubt in my mind that guts sound simply sublime, and are a pleasure to play. Introduce any amplification worth mentioning and the benefits start to slip gradually away, until you reach gig volume where you're feeling the notes as much as you hear them and the material used to make the string becomes of very limited interest.

 

And then you go and spoil it all by saying something stupid like "but what about other people?". Ah yes, other people. your band members, other musos in the audience, bar staff, punters, drunks ... what do they hear, what do they notice? We've all answered tougher questions than that, right?

 

I could afford the £700 if I needed to, if I spent my hours in recording sessions at Air Studios and if the sound would be valued and appreciated, but I'm a pub/club player. Seriously - what's the point?

 

 

"Why anyone needs guts" .... I'd say +70% of classical section players use gut based strings. It's a superb thing to hear a section of 8 (or even 10 basses) blasting out the start of Mahler 2 or the nice bit in Mahler 6.

The last 10 years I reckon the price of gut has gone up by around 40% - a set of Olives are around £650 and if you want to go for the "full fat Soopa-doopa" Eudoxas they're around £900.

(then of course us 5 string players need another £220 just for the damn B string!) 

Apart from a couple of orchestras in town the days of the Pirastro rep turning up and filling up the box with lovely free strings in the bass room has long passed... (Those were the days! - although the schmancy LSO and a couple of others still enjoy this perk).

But to answer the question, gut is very much alive and in demand in the classical world - just so bloody expensive! 

Ive used a worn set of Evahs, Belcantos and tried the Passiones, they're great but for me and my basses, definitely lack that "money shot feeling" that gut gives you. 

 

(to keep costs down I do blend sets though - currently running Eudoxa G, D and A, worn Belcanto E and Tempera B. Gives me a nice balanced even tension warm sound) 

[Beer of the Bass]

Do pro orchestra players get some sort of stipend or expenses for instrument running costs like strings? I always wondered if that affected the pricing strategy of the string companies (or it might just be that running a manufacturing business out of places like Vienna is expensive)

[Happy Jack]

23 minutes ago, Bloopdad1 said:

"Why anyone needs guts" .... I'd say +70% of classical section players use gut based strings. It's a superb thing to hear a section of 8 (or even 10 basses) blasting out the start of Mahler 2 or the nice bit in Mahler 6.

 

But to answer the question, gut is very much alive and in demand in the classical world - just so bloody expensive! 

 

None of that even begins to surprise me. My point was, of course, that by the time you've amplified your single DB at a gig, the sound of the gut strings is nowhere near as significant in the overall sound as when a DB - or many DBs - are played acoustically.

 

Your post also leads on naturally to the disparity in instrument prices between orchestral DBs and the sort played by most of us here on Basschat in blues bands, country bands, jazz bands. Putting a £700 set of guts onto an £8000 orchestral DB makes more sense (to me, anyway) than putting those same strings onto an £800 3/4 plywood bass. 

[Beedster]

19 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

None of that even begins to surprise me. My point was, of course, that by the time you've amplified your single DB at a gig, the sound of the gut strings is nowhere near as significant in the overall sound as when a DB - or many DBs - are played acoustically.

 

Your post also leads on naturally to the disparity in instrument prices between orchestral DBs and the sort played by most of us here on Basschat in blues bands, country bands, jazz bands. Putting a £700 set of guts onto an £8000 orchestral DB makes more sense (to me, anyway) than putting those same strings onto an £800 3/4 plywood bass. 

I disagree Jack, even my old Alu - not a machine built for tone - sounded way better with guts than with Evas or Spiros, and the guy I bought it from was playing Eudoxas on it. High quality strings can significantly improve the tone of even quite inexpensive instruments 

[Bloopdad1]

2 hours ago, Beer of the Bass said:

Do pro orchestra players get some sort of stipend or expenses for instrument running costs like strings? I always wondered if that affected the pricing strategy of the string companies (or it might just be that running a manufacturing business out of places like Vienna is expensive)

Years ago the Pirastro and Thomastic reps used to walk down the section and literally dump sets of strings at the bottom of the music stands (all string sections). 

There are some old pros who have NEVER bought a set of strings.. 

 

Unfortunately that has died away these days. My desk partner who has been playing for 50yrs was shocked when he found out the price of strings - he'd always had them for free! He still refuses to buy them, relying on his stash accumulated freebies. 

 

Often many orchestras actual own the bass (and other large instruments), it's been with them for centuries. In this case they insure, maintain, string and transport the bass. 

But of course the player still needs his personal bass for freelance stuff and if he get the sack! 

[Bloopdad1]

1 hour ago, Happy Jack said:

None of that even begins to surprise me. My point was, of course, that by the time you've amplified your single DB at a gig, the sound of the gut strings is nowhere near as significant in the overall sound as when a DB - or many DBs - are played acoustically.

 

Your post also leads on naturally to the disparity in instrument prices between orchestral DBs and the sort played by most of us here on Basschat in blues bands, country bands, jazz bands. Putting a £700 set of guts onto an £8000 orchestral DB makes more sense (to me, anyway) than putting those same strings onto an £800 3/4 plywood bass. 

Trust me, it still hurts dropping a grand on strings even if the bass is worth £100k!

 

Classical guys are the tightest people I know... Rosin for example. Nobody buys any! we just mooch around for an old Sankey dried up block and share it around the section or often we nick some off the cellos (and destroy it!! 😅) 

Often country, blues, jazz players and students spend much more on kit. (yes, in orchestras the basses and bows are a bit special but the cases are ripped and decades old, stools are falling apart, strings are ancient, no rosin, clothes falling apart and my pencil must be 20yrs old! 😂) 

[Bloopdad1]

1 hour ago, Beedster said:

I disagree Jack, even my old Alu - not a machine built for tone - sounded way better with guts than with Evas or Spiros, and the guy I bought it from was playing Eudoxas on it. High quality strings can significantly improve the tone of even quite inexpensive instruments 

Agreed, the best and simplest way to improve a £900 Chinese instrument is to stick a set of Evahs on it. 

It'll instantly make it sound like a bass worth at least double.