Humidity and music gear (instruments, amplifiers, and hifi)

[Beedster]

Folks I need some experience on this. I have a garage that if I leave for example a book in the pages start to wave pretty quickly, it even feels quite humid in there. I have a sealed cabin which is my office and to all intents control room in which I run two small consumer dehumidifies, and in which i keep some instruments and electrical gear. Books seems fine in there, no wavy pages.

 

Recently one of the ceiling panels in the cabin came down and the insultaion above it felt damp to me. There's no sign of any leak in the roof, in fact the felt is in really good condition. I bought a couple of humidity to check however and both spaces, garage AND. cabin, are showing up pretty much the same, mid-60s, which was a bit of a shock. I've moved the meters around to check they're sensitive and they seem to be, for example showing higher temperature and lower humidity (consistently around 50) in the house.

 

I've had no signs of humidity being a problem in the cabin but I'm now a little worried given what I keep and there and use it for. Do I need to be, and if so what's the solution. I can get a bigger dehumidifier, and I keep some of the gear in airtight SKB cases which should be fine (according to their blurb anyway). Suggestions welcome. 

[Rosie C]

What is the roof made from? I have a shed which should be cosy and dry. But in fact it suffers badly from humidity and my tools have gone rusty. As far as I can work out it's the roof - made from profiled steel sheet, as the temperature changes condensation forms on the underside. Some days it's do bad water drips down onto the floor. I got some advice about insulating but they said I couldn't stop the condensation and insulation would just trap the water. The only option was changing the roof for a timber one. 

 

 

[Beedster]

44 minutes ago, Rosie C said:

What is the roof made from? I have a shed which should be cosy and dry. But in fact it suffers badly from humidity and my tools have gone rusty. As far as I can work out it's the roof - made from profiled steel sheet, as the temperature changes condensation forms on the underside. Some days it's do bad water drips down onto the floor. I got some advice about insulating but they said I couldn't stop the condensation and insulation would just trap the water. The only option was changing the roof for a timber one. 

 

 

Thanks Rosie, I have a timber roof covered on the outside with the usual garden-style roof felt, and on the inside classic loft-style insulation and plasterboard lining. I'm wondering also if moisture is being trapped between roof and lining and therefore keeping the humidity high, and if so, what might be the solutions. I'd prefer to build a new interior, even a new roof, to provide good humidity than use dehumidifiers 24/7. I wonder whether i need ro have some form of ventilation in the walls as do houses?  

[3below]

Is the felt leaking? even if it looks good there may be small cracks and permeability.  I have always put corrugated metal on top of my wooden shed roofs (with or without felt underneath).  Roof ventilation would help - between the top surface and the insulation.  The deluxe method might be to build the roof to the same design as a house roof - vapour barrier, insulation etc.  In my previous abode I was in the fortunate to build a large workshop/studio  to well insulated house standards, it rarely needed heating, even in winter and no condensation.  It did get over warm with large glass windows in the summer.  

[Franticsmurf]

I can't comment on construction/materials, but my house usually has around 60-65% humidity levels (I've just checked now: Hot day, windows open, light breeze through the house = 59%). The house doesn't feel damp and I've often wondered what a 'normal' level is. I have no problems with any of my guitars or electrical gear other than the usual change in tuning as instruments warm up or cool down.

[Beedster]

2 minutes ago, 3below said:

Is the felt leaking? even if it looks good there may be small cracks and permeability.  I have always put corrugated metal on top of my wooden shed roofs (with or without felt underneath).  Roof ventilation would help - between the top surface and the insulation.  The deluxe method might be to build the roof to the same design as a house roof - vapour barrier, insulation etc.  In my previous abode I was in the fortunate to build a large workshop/studio  to well insulated house standards, it rarely needed heating, even in winter and no condensation.  It did get over warm with large glass windows in the summer.  

Many thanks mate, fair point re small cracks, but I think you're right about the build of the roof itself. I've been looking at some potential solutions, one of which is a vent as you suggest, although thre's not a lot of room. At present the lining tacks the angle of the roof, I might put a flat ceiling in which would allow for proper ventilation I suspect

[Beedster]

1 minute ago, Franticsmurf said:

I can't comment on construction/materials, but my house usually has around 60-65% humidity levels (I've just checked now: Hot day, windows open, light breeze through the house = 59%). The house doesn't feel damp and I've often wondered what a 'normal' level is. I have no problems with any of my guitars or electrical gear other than the usual change in tuning as instruments warm up or cool down.

 

Thanks, that's good to know, and frankly I wasn't worried until the cabin showed the same levels as the garage, which I know can be very damp (cardboard boxes start to fall apart etc). I've got a monitor in each at present to check wether identical readings were just random chance (i.e., good day in the garage).  I've picked up hifi forums that much above 60% doesn't do speaker cones or electrics a whole lot of good, hence my concern.

[Dad3353]

The only cure for humidity in buildings that are otherwise water-tight is ventilation. Finding a way of getting air to circulate is the solution. Hope this helps. 

[TimR]

Humidity is relative. As the room warms up, the air will absorb more moisture, and then when it cools down, the water will condense on any surface. 

 

You can not keep humidity out unless you keep the space above dewpoint temperature. 

 

That's why "living" spaces must now all conform to building regs and planning permission. If you haven't insulated, ventilated, and kept the space heated, you will get problems. 

[Dad3353]

5 minutes ago, TimR said:

Humidity is relative. As the room warms up, the air will absorb more moisture, and then when it cools down, the water will condense on any surface. 

 

You can not keep humidity out unless you keep the space above dewpoint temperature. 

 

That's why "living" spaces must now all conform to building regs and planning permission. If you haven't insulated, ventilated, and kept the space heated, you will get problems. 

 

I don't agree. Cold and dry will work, as long as there are no rapid temperature swings. There are hundreds of dry, unheated cellars and garages, for example, but they must have some air circulation.

[TimR]

12 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

 

I don't agree. Cold and dry will work, as long as there are no rapid temperature swings. There are hundreds of dry, unheated cellars and garages, for example, but they must have some air circulation.

 

"Above Dew Point".

 

If you're heating the space to work in, and then letting it get cold - that's a rapid temperature swing. 

[Dad3353]

All the more reason to not use heating; very little of our cottage is heated, and even then, very little. The house is completely damp-free, however, being very well ventilated, with little or no real insulation, double-glazing etc. The doors are open much of the time, for most of the year. None of our instruments, amps or cabs suffer from condensation. So...... Don't over-heat (there's an economy to be had, there...) and have the doors and windows open often. Ventilation is the key, as long as there's no other ingress of water (from the ground wicking upwards...) or from above (leaking downwards...). 

[Beedster]

Can I infer from the above that if I’m using a heater - which frankly as I’m sitting at a screen for hours at a time I prefer to do - I should use a dehumidifier at the same time to compensate? 

[Dad3353]

31 minutes ago, Beedster said:

Can I infer from the above that if I’m using a heater - which frankly as I’m sitting at a screen for hours at a time I prefer to do - I should use a dehumidifier at the same time to compensate? 

 

Personally, I would recommend having some air flow, such as a door or window open or ajar, keeping the heating to a minimum and wearing a jumper and/or dressing gown to keep reasonably warm. I've just measured the room temperature here; it's 18°. Later on in the year it'll drop to about 14°. When, outside, we start to get frosts, I may, of an evening, light the wood-burner for a while; in general, the stone cottage remains at about 12-14°, even in the totally unheated rooms. My 'den/workshop', for instance, has no heating; many of my guitars are stored there, and all my model-building equipment and wood etc. Temperatures of the sort are no problem for stuff, as longer as there's ventilation. It's better to have an unheated room than to use a heater for a while, then turn it off. If the space cannot be kept at a stable temperature, better for it to be cool/cold to avoid condensation. Wrapping up warm yourself when in such an environment is always the first step, before considering short-term heating. If a heater is used, a radiant panel heater, which heats only the surface, not the air, is a better bet. One feels the warmth, as from sunlight, but the room itself is not heated. I have one such panel suspended over my armchair, in which I pass much of my waking day, and turn it on maybe a dozen times a year; it consumes 360 W, and I feel warm enough under it. 

 

Amazon : Infrared Radiant Heat Panel ...

Edited Wednesday at 15:11 by Dad3353

[Sparky Mark]

The warmer air in your cabin will rise to the ceiling and likely permeate through the panels and any moisture will condense on a colder surface. Every time you open the cabin door, moist air from your garage will enter and the cycle repeats. Hot drinks and your breathing also add moisture to the cabin air. If the cabin is effectively sealed there's nowhere for the moisture to go other than condense on the cold surface in the ceiling. Ventilation is the best way to reduce humidity in both your garage and cabin and continue with your dehumidifiers.

[Beedster]

Interestingly when I open the cabin doors and windows the humidity in the room increases. Might just be the weather yesterday and today, and we are also in a natural dip in the middle of a lot of trees and farmland. But I assume air moving around the cabin constantly is probably more important that the minute to minute humidity of that air? 

[TimR]

It's the temperature change that will affect whether the water condenses or not.

 

If the room is sealed and the temperature drops you'll get condensation. If it's ventilated there's a good chance the fabric of the room will follow the temperature of the air in the room. As mentioned above, the warm air will rise, if you ventilate that warm air will escape. 

[meterman]

One of the things I hadn’t considered before we moved to the south of France was how dry and warm it is, compared with the places I’d lived in the UK. 
 

Downside is the high temperatures do affect the tunings of stringed instruments and drums from day to day. But retuning instruments during recording sessions isn’t really an issue. 
 

For hi-fi, I don’t know, we’ve only been here four years. But the house is kept ventilated so it should be okay.

 

I know for certain that I wouldn’t leave anything of value in my barn, it’s really damp, from floor to ceiling, even though it’s of the same construction as the house and it has plenty of ventilation. I had initially thought it would make a great recording studio but went off the idea after our first year here. I’d be running dehumidifiers 24/7 all year round, and the electricity bills would bankrupt me 😂

[Dad3353]

12 minutes ago, meterman said:

... it’s really damp, from floor to ceiling, even though it’s of the same construction as the house and it has plenty of ventilation. I had initially thought it would make a great recording studio but went off the idea after our first year here. I’d be running dehumidifiers 24/7 all year round, and the electricity bills would bankrupt me 😂

 

If the roofing is not good, and/or the ground is not well-drained, nothing will dry it out. The building has to be sound, first, and will then dry out once ventilated. A good roof and guttering and a dry base are the essentials, before thinking of any inside work. Simple stuff, really, but can become expensive, depending on local conditions, such as being built over a spring, or surrounded by earth embankments along the walls.  Got any photos..? 

Edited Thursday at 12:22 by Dad3353

[meterman]

4 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

 

If the roofing is not good, and/or the ground is not well-drained, nothing will dry it out. The building has to be sound, first, and will then dry out once ventilated. A good roof and guttering and a dry base are the essentials, before thinking of any inside work. Simple stuff, really, but can become expensive, depending on local conditions, such as being built over a spring, or surrounded by earth embankments along the walls.  Got any photos..? 

No photos, but it’s basically a stone built 20 foot x 80 foot rectangle. One half has a pitched roof and a 1st floor. The roof has a number of holes which let rain in, which is infrequent here but still inconvenient. The half without the roof is completely open to the elements. The roofed half is open from floor to ceiling on the inside of the structure. There are structural beams which show it wasn’t always like this, there would have been doors or a wall, and windows, but it would require new beams, roof repairs, re-timbering the 1st floor, totally replacing the electrics.... it’s a lot of work and it would soak up a lot of money.

 

Also there’s a fountain about 10 feet away from it, so there may be hidden water somewhere near, if not running underneath it. The floor is usually dry though.

[Dad3353]

29 minutes ago, meterman said:

No photos, but it’s basically a stone built 20 foot x 80 foot rectangle. One half has a pitched roof and a 1st floor. The roof has a number of holes which let rain in, which is infrequent here but still inconvenient. The half without the roof is completely open to the elements. The roofed half is open from floor to ceiling on the inside of the structure. There are structural beams which show it wasn’t always like this, there would have been doors or a wall, and windows, but it would require new beams, roof repairs, re-timbering the 1st floor, totally replacing the electrics.... it’s a lot of work and it would soak up a lot of money.

 

Also there’s a fountain about 10 feet away from it, so there may be hidden water somewhere near, if not running underneath it. The floor is usually dry though.

 

That's just about the state of our cottage when we bought it, with holes in the roof, where there was a roof, and open to the sky for much of it. I would recommend at least doing a minimum of work in order to preserve what's there, as things deteriorate quite quickly once it's exposed. Even a stout tarpaulin over the pitched roof, held down with battens, would keep the interior dry, and a light screed over the top of the open-to-the-sky walls will stop them coming apart over time, until something a bit more appropriate can be done. Damage limitation, really. If the inside floor (I'm assuming just hardened earth..?) is dry, I wouldn't worry about the fountain, if its run-off is away from the barn, with no accumulated pond. When does the water run off to, though..? 

Edited Thursday at 17:17 by Dad3353

[meterman]

1 hour ago, Dad3353 said:

 

That's just about the state of our cottage when we bought it, with holes in the roof, where there was a roof, and open to the sky for much of it. I would recommend at least doing a minimum of work in order to preserve what's there, as things deteriorate quite quickly once it's exposed. Even a stout tarpaulin over the pitched roof, held down with battens, would keep the interior dry, and a light screed over the top of the open-to-the-sky walls will stop them coming apart over time, until something a bit more appropriate can be done. Damage limitation, really. If the inside floor (I'm assuming just hardened earth..?) is dry, I wouldn't worry about the fountain, if its run-off is away from the barn, with no accumulated pond. When does the water run off to, though..? 

I think we’re going to try and get an insurance claim to get at least some remedial work done on the roof, no guarantees though. 
 

The ground floor under the roofed area is concreted and that’s angled to a small central drain, the rest is just a hard dirt floor. 
 

The fountain is a bit of a mystery. Nobody seems to know the source of it, and there’s a run off in case of overflow, but that goes to the street drain. 

 

I’m restoring some of the collapsed interior walls as and when I can, but it’s tiring, dirty graft, and doing it takes me away from financially more lucrative studio time. I don’t think I’ll be able to do much with it in my lifetime, but at least I can store the winter wood delivery in there 👍

[Dad3353]

46 minutes ago, meterman said:

... I’m restoring some of the collapsed interior walls as and when I can, but it’s tiring, dirty graft, and doing it takes me away from financially more lucrative studio time. I don’t think I’ll be able to do much with it in my lifetime, but at least I can store the winter wood delivery in there 👍

 

It may be too late, or you may be already using it, but I would recommend using aerial lime (chaux aérienne...) as a mortar or rendering instead of ciment, everywhere except for floors. It's a far better product from a restoration point of view, not really expensive, and easy enough to work with. The great advantage is that it allows ancient stone walls to 'breath', and helps keep old buildings healthy (sain...). We've used pretty well nothing but, here, and it'll outlast all of us. I use it outside, too, for rendering, and it holds up well there, too. Just sayin'.  

 

(And what, pray, is this 'foot' nonsense..?  )

Edited Thursday at 19:41 by Dad3353

[meterman]

15 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

 

It may be too late, or you may be already using it, but I would recommend using aerial lime (chaux aérienne...) as a mortar or rendering instead of ciment, everywhere except for floors. It's a far better product from a restoration point of view, not really expensive, and easy enough to work with. The great advantage is that it allows ancient stone walls to 'breath', and helps keep old buildings healthy (sain...). We've used pretty well nothing but, here, and it'll outlast all of us. I use it outside, too, for rendering, and it holds up well there, too. Just sayin'.  

 

(And what, pray, is this 'foot' nonsense..?  )

I’ll get this out of the way quick as I can to avoid derailing the thread any further, but yes - stone buildings and lime mortar are an essential pairing. I apprenticed in masonry repair and traditional lime repointing so I’m well aware of the need to use it, even though it’s not my favourite to work with. Once I got a 5p size blob of lime mortar stuck to my kneecap inside my trousers (still not sure how that happened) and it burned the top of my skin off. One night I knocked the scab off while getting into bed, and during the night the open skin must have got infected. Next morning I was in hospital with sepsis, and my leg looked like it had been inflated to double its size. So yeah, lime with stone buildings = essential, but be super careful when using it.

 

Just remembered re: moisture in buildings, one of my old studios in the late 90’s used to be in a converted factory. It always smelled a little bit musty when you went in there, but there was no obvious signs of damp anywhere. When I gave up the lease and did the tear down, I remember one piece of rack mount gear, a reverb unit, had completely corroded on all the metal parts that were hidden from view. Then I noticed a few of the other pieces of gear in the same rack had gone the same way. A couple were saveable but a couple didn’t last much longer.

 

Sometimes you can’t tell where the moisture is getting in from unless you tear the place apart. I just gave up my lease and set up elsewhere. Lesson learned though. Keep checking all RCA contacts and exposed metal parts, just in case 👍