hpc364 Posted September 29 Author Share Posted September 29 On 22/09/2024 at 13:27, SimonK said: Interesting thread - so I'm a classical guitarist turned electric bass player, but on occasion played upright and felt it fairly straight forward to switch across. BUT I'm not claiming to have played upright well - just sufficient to jam along informally and definitely not playing anything classical or using a bow, but walking bass/jazz lines seem fine. The only two things I would say is I play (electric) fretless a lot so am very comfortable with not having frets, and only as of this thread have I realised that while on guitar my classical background has made me an uncompromising 1 finger per fret player, but on bass it seems I revert to "Simandl" just to avoid stretching anything, which might make upright bass a bit easier. One of these days I want to buy an upright electric just for having another option more regularly, but wouldn't view it as a "different" instrument, just a variation. I think you understood what I meant. And so there is a very big difference between playing classical guitar and jazz guitar even if my basic knowledge on guitar comes from classical, it took me a while to play jazz on the guitar (only after having played "jazz" on bass guitar, not good at all) because I was a kind of "conservative" guy, one finger per fret, etc.. Now I mostly play a cheap 7 string solid body guitar and use hybrid picking, sure like everyone I had played blues and rock. I forgot to say I've been playing the saxophone for quite 35 years but I'm not so good. Maybe a lot of people will shout when they read that, on the double bass when I play pizzicato it's sharp and with the bow it's flat, and it's the same fingering ! On open strings, it doesn't change so much I guess, no difference. I maybe play too hard, there are so many people who say that the double bass requires more energy, I have already played the bass guitar with energy in order to emulate a double bass or kind of, maybe it's too much. And this is the worst !!! A nightmare !!! Solar !!! I'm lost !!! Laugh at me !!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickA Posted September 29 Share Posted September 29 On 28/09/2024 at 15:45, hpc364 said: flanger and chorus effects work Of course, but if it puts you a quarter tone flat or starts you playing before everyone else, your chorus isn't working very well! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hpc364 Posted September 29 Author Share Posted September 29 2 minutes ago, NickA said: Of course, but if it puts you a quarter tone flat or starts you playing before everyone else, your chorus isn't working very well! Put several delay pedals and rush, flanger and chorus at the end of the chain. Then shout "Stop !", you will be all the double bass players and the conductor at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilp Posted September 30 Share Posted September 30 On 28/09/2024 at 12:10, NickA said: Right hand not great either. Manages to make a nice old( German?) bass sound like a thumpy laminate. I'm not sure enough emphasis is put on the plucking hand. Classical bass teachers seem to know nothing about it; pizz being "unimportant". My orchestra friends always pluck too low down the strings and straight across them, resulting in a thuddy "plonk". I went to a National Youth Orchestra concert a bit back and their whole bass ection did the 90o across the strings pluck, but with two fingers and well over the fingerboard..probably this is the sound that classical composers expect when they write a bit of bass pizz into their symphonies etc; but it won't help us play Jazz! Ron looks pretty good to me, both left and right hands; but his intonation on "piccolo" is awful, quite some hubris to release that. Classical pizz technique is entirely different from jazz, and varies dramatically with the era of the music, not to mention the colour required in the music. A good classical teacher will absolutely spend time on pizzicato technique, but unfortunately good teachers are less common than mediocre ones.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickA Posted September 30 Share Posted September 30 9 minutes ago, neilp said: A good classical teacher Those kids in the NYO, who are better than I'll ever be, had evidently been well taught a particular style. Given any kind of lyrical pizz line at orchestra I dump my bow and go jazz... not possible for odd notes and snatches due to clutching the bow whilst pizzing, so symphonic plonk it is. I'd like to know more about different styles of pizz for different music tho. Eg I doubt Beethoven had heard of mwah or considered the concept of flowing pizz... Bernstein on the other hand... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hpc364 Posted September 30 Author Share Posted September 30 Cool ! It reminds me another forum ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie C Posted October 5 Share Posted October 5 (edited) On 28/09/2024 at 14:50, NickA said: I remember my first orchestra rehearsal, on my 1/2 size cello, aged 9. Quite an experience to play a note and not hear it! I remember my first day in (community) orchestra on a 3/4 bass. As you say I couldn't really hear mine, but when they all played together in tune I could feel mine resonating with the others. Quite other-worldy like the basses were talking to each other! Edited October 5 by Rosie C 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted October 5 Share Posted October 5 32 minutes ago, Rosie C said: I remember my first day in (community) orchestra on a 3/4 bass. As you say I couldn't really hear mine, but when they all played together in tune I could feel mine resonating with the others. Quite other-worldy like the basses were talking to each other! My orchestra time was long ago, but I remember that's how I knew I was in tune, you don't hear the pitch, you feel the resonance of the section. It's a lovely feeling, I can occasionally get it playing DB in Jazz/Bluegrass, especially if there's another instrument that needs to 'find' the note, fiddle being the most obvious example. But it's for the same effect that I love doing BVs, that moment when a 3-part harmony comes together perfectly, although rare with my lot, brings that lovely resonance 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloopdad1 Posted October 5 Share Posted October 5 On 28/09/2024 at 15:45, hpc364 said: In an orchestra if everyone played perfectly in tune you wouldn't get the same impact. Add the traditional classical vibrato... Do you know how flanger and chorus effects work ? Err... I guarantee that if an orchestral player consistently played out of tune they would quickly get sacked! (Unfortunately I've worked with a few...). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stub Mandrel Posted October 5 Share Posted October 5 I've found over the years that a bginner often makes some rapid progress, but then overestimates their capabilities. As a beginner botanist I found many 'rarities', n electronics I found 'new, simpler ways' to do things, and so on. I learnt that the better you get and the more you know, the more you realise your shortcomings and the challenges you face. I tried playing some basslines I thought I knew that were featured in a tutorial... and discovered how badly I was playing most of them. I have briefly attempted double bass a few times; I've come to accept that I would have to learn completely new left and right hand techniques. My preference for one finger per fret and right hand muting technique (using my fingertips) are just utterly wrong. I'm impressed by the progress the OP has made, but I have no illusions of the challenges of playing what is an utterly different instrument. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hpc364 Posted October 5 Author Share Posted October 5 4 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said: I have briefly attempted double bass a few times; I've come to accept that I would have to learn completely new left and right hand techniques. My preference for one finger per fret and right hand muting technique (using my fingertips) are just utterly wrong. That was my point, if you are used to playing the bass guitar with Simandl fingering, it's not a "big deal", you get quickly functional without becoming a great double bass player. In a jazz ensemble, nobody wants you to be great but functional. You can be great and unable to accompany other musicians. Some big technicians can be lost in a tune while simple players do the job and more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burns-bass Posted October 6 Share Posted October 6 19 hours ago, hpc364 said: That was my point, if you are used to playing the bass guitar with Simandl fingering, it's not a "big deal", you get quickly functional without becoming a great double bass player. In a jazz ensemble, nobody wants you to be great but functional. You can be great and unable to accompany other musicians. Some big technicians can be lost in a tune while simple players do the job and more. I agree - up to a point. Yesterday I played 3 sets of live music (maybe 140 minutes). The only way to do this safely and without injury is using an old fashioned arm weight technique and traditional fingering. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickA Posted October 7 Share Posted October 7 Tonight I played En Saga by Sibelius. Bars and bars and bars ...and bars of the same repeated note ( often F on the E string) I can only play it by clamping my hand around the neck and/or reinforcing my index finger with another on top of it. Technique be damned, sometimes it's just survival. ...and some music is better heard than played. Shan't be sorry if we don't do this one again. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hpc364 Posted October 12 Author Share Posted October 12 Today I played a bit, I don't practise so much anymore even if when I picked it "everything" (for me) even if it's nothing (for you) came naturally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hpc364 Posted October 12 Author Share Posted October 12 The right hand is often wrong but it sounds good to my ears but it's wrong, not right but it's actually my right hand, not my left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassace Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 On 07/10/2024 at 22:54, NickA said: Tonight I played En Saga by Sibelius. Bars and bars and bars ...and bars of the same repeated note ( often F on the E string) I can only play it by clamping my hand around the neck and/or reinforcing my index finger with another on top of it. Technique be damned, sometimes it's just survival. ...and some music is better heard than played. Shan't be sorry if we don't do this one again. bars and bars and bars… reminds me of the pit percussionist who had rests and rests and rests on his sheet. So much that he briefly nodded off and when he came to he lost his place but thought it must be about now. So he grabbed a beater and struck the adjacent gong with a massive reverberating sound. Which stopped the whole orchestra. He turned round, bowed to the audience and announced ‘Dinner is Served’ in sonorous tones. sorry, carry on the discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilp Posted October 19 Share Posted October 19 On 30/09/2024 at 22:05, NickA said: Those kids in the NYO, who are better than I'll ever be, had evidently been well taught a particular style. Given any kind of lyrical pizz line at orchestra I dump my bow and go jazz... not possible for odd notes and snatches due to clutching the bow whilst pizzing, so symphonic plonk it is. I'd like to know more about different styles of pizz for different music tho. Eg I doubt Beethoven had heard of mwah or considered the concept of flowing pizz... Bernstein on the other hand... I was one of those kids once upon a time! Did Mahler 2 and the Rite of Spring with NYO, among other things... When you're playing in a section - even Bernstein - the discipline of being exactly together means there is almost no room for the looseness that other styles of music with only one bass might encourage. Even Bernstein has to be meticulously rehearsed so that the whole section feels exactly the same groove and applies the same amount of swing. Thats probably why its very rare to see an orchestral player abandon the arched hand above the fingerboard and go for the side of the finger down near the bridge! too much variation in tone to allow the 8 players to meld as a section. Bartok and Shostakovich had some interesting ideas about pizz, but that might be a discussion for another day.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hpc364 Posted October 19 Author Share Posted October 19 This is your nightmare !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hpc364 Posted October 20 Author Share Posted October 20 Another nightmare !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hpc364 Posted October 20 Author Share Posted October 20 No no no !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickA Posted October 20 Share Posted October 20 21 hours ago, hpc364 said: This is your nightmare !!! Your point being? I'm confused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burns-bass Posted October 20 Share Posted October 20 46 minutes ago, NickA said: Your point being? I'm confused. It’a not aimed at you. The OP seems to think that we’re making fun of his learning DB, but that’s not the case. We all offered polite and friendly advice. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hpc364 Posted October 20 Author Share Posted October 20 5 minutes ago, Burns-bass said: It’a not aimed at you. The OP seems to think that we’re making fun of his learning DB, but that’s not the case. We all offered polite and friendly advice. Sorry I'm used to talkbass "hostility", add to this my false bad mood when I am talking, it becomes a kind of war. It gave me a bad opinion about double bassists but here you're cool even if a lot here drive on the left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burns-bass Posted October 21 Share Posted October 21 9 hours ago, hpc364 said: Sorry I'm used to talkbass "hostility", add to this my false bad mood when I am talking, it becomes a kind of war. It gave me a bad opinion about double bassists but here you're cool even if a lot here drive on the left. Nobody here judges you. All music is good music. I did a gig yesterday and someone came up to the singer and started telling her where she was going wrong. It was quite upsetting for her and I’d not want to make anyone else feel that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zbd1960 Posted October 21 Share Posted October 21 (edited) On 07/10/2024 at 22:54, NickA said: Tonight I played En Saga by Sibelius. Bars and bars and bars ...and bars of the same repeated note ( often F on the E string) I can only play it by clamping my hand around the neck and/or reinforcing my index finger with another on top of it. Technique be damned, sometimes it's just survival. ...and some music is better heard than played. Shan't be sorry if we don't do this one again. As a cellist who plays in orchestras... we've all been there. I played in a concert some years ago where someone had orchestrated 90s dance music and the arranger thought it was hilarious to have the string parts oscillate between keys of 5 or 6 flats and 5 or 6 sharps. Currently rehearsing something with a new composition in it - the cello part has 36 bars of tied semibreves at one point... then one bar with two minims... and then an eternity of tied semibreves... I've played Sibelius 5 - you just have to accept sometimes that the cello part in works like that is an 'effect' and playing what is actually written is almost impossible for non-pro players Edited October 22 by zbd1960 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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