Band-related PA problems

[Burns-bass]

I play in a 4-piece band. We gig maybe 20-25 times a year. We bought a used PA from the lovely (and incredibly helpful and warm) chap here, but it’s showing it’s age.

 

The singer wants us all to invest in a new, lightweight PA. This is purely used as a vocal PA (bigger gigs we’ll rent one).

 

The drummer isn’t happy. He’s not hugely well off and his argument is that we (bass, drums and guitar) all spend thousands. I’m taking £5k of gear to each gig, for example, so I can see his point.

 

So, how have you guys navigated this?

[Lozz196]

In every band that I’ve been in which owned a PA it was bought by the band. No idea why this happens as as you say, we spend on our gear, drummists & geetars spend on theirs, then for some reason the singers get us to chip in on theirs. Additionally, and for another reason I’ve never understood said PA never resided with the singer.

[Matt P]

The PA in our band is partially owned by the band and the rest i bought myself, the shared kit was bought with gig money and the reset i sourced. It is stored split between the 3 of us, the main reason this works is that the band is just the 3 of us and we were close friends before we were properly a band, I have keys to both of their houses and they have keys to mine (this was handy last week when the drummer locked himself out and nipped over to borrow the spare key)

 

the main reason that i bought the kit was that I've got experience of PA and when we were starting I had the spare money and time to source stuff (mostly secondhand) any upgrades or repairs are done by me too as i enjoy that sort of thing, at some point soon i'm planning to replace the 15" speakers with some 10" ones to reduce weight and make them easier to store.

 

the total outlay on our PA isn't that high though, I've spent far more on the recording setup and it's all eclipsed by how much i've spent on my own setup.

 

[warwickhunt]

I've been in bands for over 40 years and in that time I've likely had every scenario and there isn't a concrete right/wrong.  Personally in the cold light of day I'd say if it is purely a vocal PA, this is down to the singer! 

 

However... if this is too contentious for your band to cope with you could do what I/we are presently doing.  3 of the 4 band members have jointly bought a PA @ £1200 (1 band member is strapped for cash due to an imminent house purchase) and there is an agreement that we (3) will recoup our outlay from 100% of the initial gig money; 4 gigs @ £300 will be paid directly to us 3 with the non-contributor receiving nothing from those initial gigs.  When we have been repaid for our outlay, the gig money reverts to being split 4 ways.  In the event of the band splitting we divide the proceeds of the sale by 4 and each gets an equal share.

[TimR]

There's a massive thread here that may be of some use.

 

https://www.basschat.co.uk/topic/481188-template-agreement-for-buying-sharing-and-splitting-cost-of-pa-has-anyone-got-one-i-could-use/

 

[TimR]

There's a massive thread here that may be of some use.

 

https://www.basschat.co.uk/topic/481188-template-agreement-for-buying-sharing-and-splitting-cost-of-pa-has-anyone-got-one-i-could-use/

 

[Burns-bass]

11 minutes ago, warwickhunt said:

I've been in bands for over 40 years and in that time I've likely had every scenario and there isn't a concrete right/wrong.  Personally in the cold light of day I'd say if it is purely a vocal PA, this is down to the singer! 

 

However... if this is too contentious for your band to cope with you could do what I/we are presently doing.  3 of the 4 band members have jointly bought a PA @ £1200 (1 band member is strapped for cash due to an imminent house purchase) and there is an agreement that we (3) will recoup our outlay from 100% of the initial gig money; 4 gigs @ £300 will be paid directly to us 3 with the non-contributor receiving nothing from those initial gigs.  When we have been repaid for our outlay, the gig money reverts to being split 4 ways.  In the event of the band splitting we divide the proceeds of the sale by 4 and each gets an equal share.

 

This is what we did with the original PA. I bought it and stored it until we jointly paid it off. Resale value is £0 I'm sure.

 

The point, I guess, is that the musicians (singers, don't get upset) spend thousands on gear, including ongoing maintenance, consumables and the like. Singer's outlay = 0.

 

 

 

 

[warwickhunt]

2 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

 

This is what we did with the original PA. I bought it and stored it until we jointly paid it off. Resale value is £0 I'm sure.

 

The point, I guess, is that the musicians (singers, don't get upset) spend thousands on gear, including ongoing maintenance, consumables and the like. Singer's outlay = 0.

 

 

I agree and that's why in the first instance I'd be suggesting the singer buys a PA.  I've recently stepped down from a band (after 10 years) and the singer owned and transported the PA; he did solo gigs, buskers etc so it was his responsibility and his choice (he was happy doing that).  It won't always be the case and that is where compromise comes in because it is surely a compromise when a whole band is buying a piece of gear that only one member is going to use.  It could be argued the whole band benefits but equally the whole band benefits from the drummer owning a kit and the bass/guitar owning backline etc.

 

[Burns-bass]

12 minutes ago, warwickhunt said:

 

I agree and that's why in the first instance I'd be suggesting the singer buys a PA.  I've recently stepped down from a band (after 10 years) and the singer owned and transported the PA; he did solo gigs, buskers etc so it was his responsibility and his choice (he was happy doing that).  It won't always be the case and that is where compromise comes in because it is surely a compromise when a whole band is buying a piece of gear that only one member is going to use.  It could be argued the whole band benefits but equally the whole band benefits from the drummer owning a kit and the bass/guitar owning backline etc.

 

 

Quite agree. 

 

I should say, my question wasn't so much about how to manage this financially, but socially – to ensure that it's positive and friendly, not acrimonious. 

[warwickhunt]

11 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

 

Quite agree. 

 

I should say, my question wasn't so much about how to manage this financially, but socially – to ensure that it's positive and friendly, not acrimonious. 

 

Now THAT is a whole other ball game and a dance I've done lots of times.  I'm now of an age where I'd quite frankly be quite matter of fact and bordering on blunt BUT it's not how I might have dealt with it in the past... though I now know the best way is the straightest way.     

[Boodang]

If the pa is just for vocals, then the vocalist/s buy it. Most bands I've been in, the pa is used by everyone but when it's not I don't think others should contribute. As you say, we spend quite a lot on gear as it is, but even if we didn't, still not our problem. Why do singers think they're so privileged?!!

[mcnach]

On 24/09/2024 at 08:13, Burns-bass said:

I play in a 4-piece band. We gig maybe 20-25 times a year. We bought a used PA from the lovely (and incredibly helpful and warm) chap here, but it’s showing it’s age.

 

The singer wants us all to invest in a new, lightweight PA. This is purely used as a vocal PA (bigger gigs we’ll rent one).

 

The drummer isn’t happy. He’s not hugely well off and his argument is that we (bass, drums and guitar) all spend thousands. I’m taking £5k of gear to each gig, for example, so I can see his point.

 

So, how have you guys navigated this?

 

 

If it's purely vocals only, I'd treat it as "singer's backline" and it's on them. I'm with the drummer on this one.

 

If you end up buying as a band, I'd suggest that each bit is owned by a single member rather than owned collectively which in my opinion is calling for trouble.

[mcnach]

On 24/09/2024 at 08:49, warwickhunt said:

I've been in bands for over 40 years and in that time I've likely had every scenario and there isn't a concrete right/wrong.  Personally in the cold light of day I'd say if it is purely a vocal PA, this is down to the singer! 

 

However... if this is too contentious for your band to cope with you could do what I/we are presently doing.  3 of the 4 band members have jointly bought a PA @ £1200 (1 band member is strapped for cash due to an imminent house purchase) and there is an agreement that we (3) will recoup our outlay from 100% of the initial gig money; 4 gigs @ £300 will be paid directly to us 3 with the non-contributor receiving nothing from those initial gigs.  When we have been repaid for our outlay, the gig money reverts to being split 4 ways.  In the event of the band splitting we divide the proceeds of the sale by 4 and each gets an equal share.

 

what happens when 1 member decides to leave the band?

[warwickhunt]

4 minutes ago, mcnach said:

 

what happens when 1 member decides to leave the band?

 

We have an agreement that if the others are carrying on, that person gets 1/4 of the market value of the PA.  It could be a bone of contention 'how much is it worth' but we are all grown men and can sort it out, we did have a general consensus that the £1200 we paid would likely be £800 'if' we were to try and sell it within a year.  I had a similar thing some years back, where a band folded and it was shared ownership; I made an offer to buy the PA off the other guys at a price I thought was fair but if anyone else wanted to offer more or could sell it immediately for more, then they could crack on and have it.  

 

However... there's nowt as queer as (band) folk! 

[Jakester]

I think if it’s just for vocals, and the singer is pushing for it, I’d say it’s up to them. 
 

I’ve generally supplied PA for bands I’ve been in simply because I’ve been the only one interested enough in figuring out what we need and how it works! Does mean I need to bring a lot more stuff to gigs (particularly when I’m doing drums!) so it’s getting a bit tiresome now…

[mowf]

If the singer wants you to pay for a share of his PA, then maybe you could get him to contribute next time you see a bass you fancy.

[Dan Dare]

Ah, the old chestnut. There are arguments for both sides.

 

If everyone uses the PA, then everyone should contribute. Not necessarily equal shares - it could be argued that some benefit more than others - but bookings for instrumental only bands tend to be thin on the ground. So everyone, even if they don't use the PA personally or to any great extent, benefits in that they get work they wouldn't have if the band had no singer.

 

Singer should buy a vocal only PA? Fair enough up to a point - if, for example, said PA works out at about the same cost as what others have spent on their instruments and equipment. It may be that the singer should bear the lion's share of the cost of a PA if he/she simply sings. But what happens when singer also plays (keys or guitar, for example. Many do)? 

 

Should backing vocalists chip in? They're using the PA, after all. How about monitors? They are of value to everyone. Should the cost of those be shared?

 

And how about other jobs that benefit the band as a whole? They cost time, effort and money. There's a lot more involved in running a band than just buying one's own gear and playing. In my band, for example, two of the members are good at the hustle/getting gigs. So they deal with that. My contribution is that I provide the PA. Another member has turned his garage into a studio/rehearsal space, so his contribution is that he enables us to rehearse/record for free. And so on.

 

The only way is for everyone to put on their big boy/girl pants and engage in sensible negotiation.

 

 

Edited September 25 by Dan Dare

[Lozz196]

Good points Dan, if I were presented with this scenario now, given that I do backing vox I’d have no problem buying my own mic, mic stand, and possibly a monitor as well. 

[TimR]

The problem is a PA is physical item that has monetary value.

The storing, transport, setting up and operating are invisible costs of time and can probably be offset if someone has a big enough house. I've known people storing PAs in their hallway. My wife would go mad.

 

I went down the line of buying a PA and hiring it to the band for each gig and that was budgeted into gigs. For that I made sure everything was replaced when broken or when anything went missing. 

 

It went a bit wrong when after a few years the drummer said they must have paid for the PA by now and started complaining about 'his' £10 per gig. Pointing out that I'd spent afternoon's sourcing and replacing tweeters and fixing broken speaker stands, fell on deaf ears..

[Dan Dare]

3 hours ago, TimR said:

The problem is a PA is physical item that has monetary value.

The storing, transport, setting up and operating are invisible costs of time and can probably be offset if someone has a big enough house. I've known people storing PAs in their hallway. My wife would go mad.

 

I went down the line of buying a PA and hiring it to the band for each gig and that was budgeted into gigs. For that I made sure everything was replaced when broken or when anything went missing. 

 

It went a bit wrong when after a few years the drummer said they must have paid for the PA by now and started complaining about 'his' £10 per gig. Pointing out that I'd spent afternoon's sourcing and replacing tweeters and fixing broken speaker stands, fell on deaf ears..

 

Yep. I've stored a PA in the hallway before now. It now resides in my lounge (heavy bits) and spare bedroom (stuff I can carry upstairs). My wife passed away some years back, so I don't have to worry about her feelings on the matter, although I have to give her credit for being understanding/accommodating when she was alive. Our drummer still keeps gear in the hallway. His wife is also understanding, although as she has her grand piano in their lounge, she couldn't really complain that much.

 

I'd probably tell your drummer "Fair enough. I'll stop bringing my PA to gigs and we can hire from now on".

 

 

 

[TimR]

9 minutes ago, Dan Dare said:

she has her grand piano in their lounge,

 

My Aunt also keeps her grand piano in the lounge. The violins, basson amd oboe are in the dining room. To be honest I think musical instruments should be kept in the music room, that leaves the dining room, lounge, drawing room and library free for their intended purposes. 

Edited September 25 by TimR

[Dan Dare]

3 minutes ago, TimR said:

I think musical instruments should be kept in the music room, that leaves the dining room, lounge, drawing room and library free for their intended purposes. 

 

Absolutely old boy. The PA can go in the stables.

[PaulWarning]

if the PA is used purely by the singer then yes he should buy it look after it, but I suspect this is not very often the case, there's backing vocals and in our case the bass drum that also use the PA.

We originally bought ours with gig money, when 2 member left me and the singer bought out their share of what we agreed was the second hand value, any repairs come out of the merch money, since then we've had 2 guitarists who don't get invovled in merch money and get paid every gig, but we do charge them a 'Guitarist Tax' of about a fiver a gig for any potential repairs and, for anybody that knows us, buying replacement ducks for those that get nicked every gig.

Complicated? yep.

Singers do get off light when it comes gear buying. Ours even wanted us to buy him a wireless mic, we did draw the line there, or I did.

[Bassfinger]

I got arriss  ***** over my share of the PA when I left my last band, so I've gone completely self sufficient with two 4 x 12 Marshall cabs (one or two as required at gigs) and a compact amp head. If I ever leave the new project I'm involved in then my gear comes with me.

 

I've paid ££££s for my own gear, so if the singist wants to sing they should do the same for their equipment. Trying to be nice and chipping in lots of money towards a PA saw my last lot try to bend me overwhen I went and I'm not putting myself in a position where that can happen again. They were supposed to be grown men too, but when it came to buying out my share they suddenly reverted to a child like state.

 

You wanna play drums? You buy a drum kit. Your voice is your instrument? Then get the kit required to make it heard, sames as the rest ofmus have to.

Edited September 25 by Bassfinger

[Norris]

You have a PA already that does the job. The singer wants a new one. Seems pretty simple to me: you want it, you buy it.

 

In our band every piece of equipment is solely owned by one person. The guitar/vocalist owns his PA. He also does solo gigs so it's not a problem when he uses it for those. It's also not that expensive a PA in the first place (2x Mackie SRM450s and a mixer). We all do backing vocals with occasional lead, so own our own mics, stands and leads. We don't contribute towards the upkeep of the PA either - it's pretty bombproof as we don't stress it and only use it for vocals & very rare kick drum boost

 

I own all the lights. It's not a problem if anyone wants to borrow them - we're all mates, but it doesn't happen often

 

We've had a pretty stress-free decade playing together 😁