Band-related PA problems

[tauzero]

When Mrs Zero became the singist, I got a PA, which I have upgraded and downweighted subsequently even after she gave up, so I supplied the PA to three other bands. I also store it - as it's 4 8" active speakers, two stands, a Behringer XR18 and BCF2000, and a suitcase of leads, it doesn't take up much space and it fits in a corner of the garage.

[Stub Mandrel]

My brother gave me a PA when I started my second band. It's turned out that i've upgraded speakers and amp. I've also bought basic powered cabs and passive extension cabs that serve as a capable vocal only pa or as monitors with a bigger PA. Vocalist has invested in a serious digital mixer that does vastly more than my soundcraft Folio.

 

Lights are fun... I've bought some cheap led lights and laser modules and one guitarist has very similar stuff. It isn't Pink Floyd, but when we have space it lifts things up.

 

So it's all worked out ok.

[TimR]

Actually with lightweight powered speakers you can get away with a low cost 4chanel mixer. Doesn't really need to break the bank, be very complicated or large. 

[12stringbassist]

It seems quite simple to me. If you want to upgrade your PA system, and if your drummer opts out of buying, then he doesn't own a share of the new PA. Give him his share when you sell the old one. Split the cost between the rest of you.

With my lot, I own powered top PA cabs.
Drummer owns desk and bass bins that we use. Has spare top cabs.
Guitarist also has a small desk and some PA cabs.

Edited September 26 by 12stringbassist

[Dan Dare]

15 hours ago, PaulWarning said:

Singers do get off light when it comes gear buying. Ours even wanted us to buy him a wireless mic, we did draw the line there, or I did.

 

True. Most quality vocal mics (excluding expensive condensers, which are not that useful for live work) are cheaper than pretty well any any decent guitar, bass, drum kit, etc. And that's before you factor in the cost of backline.

 

I'd tell your singer to regard his mic' as his instrument and the PA as his backline and suggest it's reasonable that he should spend the equivalent on it of what the rest of the band have spent on their kit.

[Munurmunuh]

If the singer was acquired from a endless supply of quality vocalists with an excellent range and tone, a good stage persona and sensitive musicality, then calling his bluff should be fine.

[fretmeister]

23 hours ago, mcnach said:

 

what happens when 1 member decides to leave the band?

 

Last time, my band all bought parts of the PA, equalled out as best we could. So 1 person bought the desk, someone else bought the FOH speakers, another bought the monitors etc etc.

 

Then if someone goes they can take their bit with them. Depreciation is their problem on the bit they own, or the remaining members can offer to buy that element if they want to.

 

As it happens that band folded completely and everyone just took their bits. I had the FOH speakers and stands. As I was using a Yamaha P5000S power amp as my bass power amp at the time I had some fun setting them up in my house for use with music and TV!

 

I eventually sold them when I realised that was easier than divorce.

[maxr]

I'd suggest the reason singers don't often keep the PA is because they're usually the ones that don't have a van (hello drummers!), and also they sometimes seem to have a faster turnaround than other band members.  I do know bands where the PA is a joint effort but the singer/s buy their own mics - at least that way they know whose pies are stuck in the popshield...

[Bassfinger]

21 hours ago, Munurmunuh said:

If the singer was acquired from a endless supply of quality vocalists with an excellent range and tone, a good stage persona and sensitive musicality, then calling his bluff should be fine.

Being a singist myself I'd be happy to call their bluff.

[EssexBuccaneer]

If you want to be in a band, you need a PA - so digging one’s heels in and saying ‘I’m not paying’ is unlikely to prove worthwhile or popular. 
 

However in this situation it’s different, with an already (presumably) decent PA that doesn’t need an upgrade. I’d be happy putting it to a band vote and if it’s deemed unnecessary then it doesn’t get bought.

 

I’m always bemused by the pickles that some get into with shares of PA’s, and I own this and you own that, and you can buy me out etc etc.

 

A PA, once bought (by band earnings ideally) is a sunk cost. Write it off.

 

 

[Count Bassy]

The problem with a lot of lead singists that they are arrogant cnuts who think the band (and world) owe them a living (well a mic & PA at least)

 

Not that I'm bitter, understand.

 

Edited September 28 by Count Bassy

[casapete]

2 hours ago, Count Bassy said:

The problem with a lot of lead singists that they are arrogant cnuts who think the band (and world) owe them a living (well a mic & PA at least)

 

Not that I'm bitter, understand.

 

Always remember the time we had a dep singer in my old function band.

 

Gig was a flash wedding in a big marquee somewhere. Dep singer turned

up late by which time we’d unloaded the van and set up all the backline and PA.

I asked him what sort of mic he’d brought, and he replied that he didn’t have one

because he’d left it in the glovebox of his girlfriends’ car! I somehow managed to

remain calm, and dug out an old Peavey mic that we used for giving to people to

make speeches etc. We started the first set, and the singer had lost his voice 

after about half a dozen songs - said he couldn’t hear himself despite having a 200

watt personal monitor provided, and wasn’t used to singing with a live band!
I ended up singing for the rest of the night. Utter tw*t! 

[Munurmunuh]

34 minutes ago, casapete said:

we had a dep singer in my old function band.... the singer had lost his voice after about half a dozen songs - said he couldn’t hear himself despite having a 200 watt personal monitor provided, and wasn’t used to singing with a live band!

 

Who booked him?

[casapete]

54 minutes ago, Munurmunuh said:

 

Who booked him?

Sadly we did - our regular singer was ill on the day of the gig, and the dep was supposed

to be okay and we didn’t have any other options. Needless to say we never used him again. 

[SimonK]

In bands that don't really make money to put towards gear/recording etc. it does seem best for everyone to know who owns what and thus not have shared ownership. Also as different people earn different amounts in their day job some have contributed more than others. This is how my most succesful band operated, and I still occasionally get called by the guitarist asking to borrow the powered wedges that I bought for that band fifteen years ago. Mind you top marks go to same guitarist as while I bought powered wedges he re-mortgaged his house to turn his garage into a recording studio! We initially recorded an EP and album in there, and now well after that band has folded he occasionally gets me to come in and play on various projects (as well as borrowing my monitors) - but there was no doubt whose studio or indeed monitors they are!

Edited September 28 by SimonK

[W1_Pro]

As others have said, this question is as broad as it is long. I do tend to concur with the folks that say if your singer wants a lightweight vocal PA, then he should probably pay for it....For something like a soundcraft Ui12 with a couple of TheBox Pro speakers & Thomann own brand stands its not even that much money as compared to buying a decent amp or a set of cymbals.  

Edited September 28 by W1_Pro

[BigRedX]

On 27/09/2024 at 18:58, EssexBuccaneer said:

If you want to be in a band, you need a PA - so digging one’s heels in and saying ‘I’m not paying’ is unlikely to prove worthwhile or popular. 

 

Or you could chose to play in an originals band, where unless you deliberately decide to play venues that don't normally put on live music almost everywhere you will want to play will have an in-house PA and lights complete with someone to work them for you.

[dmccombe7]

Historically my band bought PA's with the thinking being that we will all use it. Nowadays bass rigs are so good that for most gigs i don't go thru the PA. 

However my current bands the drummer who is in both bands bought the QSC PA in modular sets. He has 2 way 12" cabs, 3 way 15" cabs and a set of subs. We've only used the subs twice in all the gigs we've done because we need a van hire if we take them so generally for the punk band we use just the 12's and for the Glam band we use the 15's with the 12's as monitors if req'd.

The drummer has so many contacts in the business that he gets great deals on gear. He was a sales rep for Pearl and Peavey at one point and just seems to know a lot of people. His mate from years ago runs a PA hire company for larger club and stadium type venues and he got the PA thru him at a very discounted rate. He also bought the various analogue desks and now the digital Allen & Heath small and larger desks.

No idea why he thought he should buy the PA on his own tho ?

I used to find that when a band purchased a PA and then the band folded it caused issues on how it was all split up or how much we sold it for etc.

I do tend to agree that if mainly a vocal PA then the singer or anyone singing should in fact chip in. 

I also store the larger PA cabs and transport them with my bass gear. Thankfully the Volvo V90 estate is like a big hearse and can carry a lot of gear.

Dave 

[Burns-bass]

10 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

 

Or you could chose to play in an originals band, where unless you deliberately decide to play venues that don't normally put on live music almost everywhere you will want to play will have an in-house PA and lights complete with someone to work them for you.

I love originals bands but this cover band is purely a money making venture.

 

The replies here have been helpful. Resentment can easily build up so I’m glad we’ve dealt with it head on.

[funkgod]

Not sure if this has been mentioned above with only reading quickly scanning through,

But i have for 20 + years owned my own big pa which i hire out now and again with me as tec as i dont

like anyone else messing with it.

As some of you have said already, its an expensive set up, and it is when you take all things into account,

its all HK actor rig with full stage monitoring

quality microphones, the mic leads alone are all quality and NOT cheap when buying for a 12 piece band with spares, go and price just 20 Evolution mic leads !

then there is a 20 chan desk, di boxes, mic stands, vocal mics/ wireless mics,  drum mics, rack fx, multicores, power distribution,  flight cases, bla bla bla, then there is stuff like tape, adapters, audio/music, recording stuff if needed, then there is all the bo!!o@ks of maintenance, PAT testing, and so it goes on, 

its a time consuming expensive game !

and if anything goes pop, you/i inevitably foot the bill...

So, what i do is this.....

If the band want to use it, then it becomes another member of the band and takes an equal cut of the money.

a small price to pay for the amount of time of me getting there early to set up and being the last to go, and getting a consistently great sound.

only rule is if i get there early to set up then everyone chips in at the end of the night to help break down and load up.

no exceptions, that's the backing girl singers as well as the brass players who have a habit of sneaking off early, tw@s.

so sod all that, that's the rule.

 

Now, if they don't want that, they can go else where and hire ( which would mean less money for them at the end of the night)

or ...

someone else can go and get one as good and cart it all about for free if they want,

which (cus i don't really like setting up pa) i would be right up for , who wouldn't be ?

but i know it will only be a matter of time before they see the light also !

 

So it works and all agree its more than fair.

as most of the time the pay is crap, sometimes is ok but very rarely its great

 

you take the bad with the not so good,  all things considered.

 

BUT.... Again, as said, the no gear singers get off scott free.................. tw@s

 

for the most bands i would say my message to singers is ... as well as your mic, lead and stand, at least go and get your own powered floor monitor.

Edited September 29 by funkgod

[Dad3353]

Back in the '70s, I was simply the drummer for the pro touring bands; the BL handled all the gear, tour bus, dates, hire'n'fire etc. I turn up with my drums and play, and help the roadies at tear-down.

Since playing in cover bands with buddies, or doing the roadying, desk and lights for an originals band, I've always been the one supplying the gear etc. As these were/are always buddies, chums, friends and family (two sons...), and I had the funds to do it (from my day-time career...), it was, and still is, my own gear and transport, so no split-up, and no arguments. I worked week-ends at times with a buddy's events outfit, so had a source for s/h gear when he upgraded stuff. Now retired, I have easily enough for the few gigs we now do, but no more tour-bus (too old for MOT, so scrapped...), so I 'borrow' a van from our local garage, for a tankful of diesel when I return it. Just lucky, I guess, but no issues with any split, as it's all mine (my Precioussss; all mine..! Mine..!) 

Edited September 29 by Dad3353

[tauzero]

6 hours ago, BigRedX said:

Or you could chose to play in an originals band, where unless you deliberately decide to play venues that don't normally put on live music almost everywhere you will want to play will have an in-house PA and lights complete with someone to work them for you.

 

Which, as I have said before, isn't my experience. But it's pointless me repeating that, because you have your experience and I have mine.

[Dad3353]

6 hours ago, BigRedX said:

Or you could chose to play in an originals band, where unless you deliberately decide to play venues that don't normally put on live music almost everywhere you will want to play will have an in-house PA and lights complete with someone to work them for you.

 

This was true once Kiemsa (all original eight-piece ska/rock/punk band...) had climbed far enough up the greasy pole to play those venues, but it took a couple of years putting on self-promoted concerts, and a fair share of lesser venues and events in which we had to provide the PA and lights. Once we could get the tech sheet and rider respected by the bigger events, all was well; we just had to learn how to set up and operate the various PA and lighting consoles that were on hand. Solved, for lighting, by using a Dmx interface and a laptop; all I had to do was patch the fixtures to my Dmx output, which I could do during sound check. We still had issues on occasion. Once, at the Bourge festival, we were playing 'off' venues. Upon arriving at the first, and asking what the PA was, we learned that none of the 'off' venues (bars and clubs, for the most part...) had anything 'in house'. The road crew had to scour the countryside to rake up enough gear for playing. Do you know just how hard it is to find a decent PA rig to hire whilst the Bourge festival is on..? It's all been soaked up by all the other stages and events. We did the gigs, though, with what we cobbled together. Happy Daze..! 

[Lozz196]

8 hours ago, BigRedX said:

 

Or you could chose to play in an originals band, where unless you deliberately decide to play venues that don't normally put on live music almost everywhere you will want to play will have an in-house PA and lights complete with someone to work them for you.

Yep, most of the gigs I do I only need to bring my bass, if travelling heavy I also bring an amp head.

[TimR]

9 hours ago, BigRedX said:

Or you could chose to play in an originals band

 

I've never been paid to play originals. So getting the band to pay for the PA from gig income becomes a non starter. 😂