Small Church Install

[SuperSeagull]

Appreciate this forum is really about PA in a band situation but I find myself the lead person on recommending a solution for an installed PA at our small church and wanted to check some of my thinking with experts here.

 

We meet in a 1970s building, lots of brick wall and tiled floors but no pillars or medieval tombs to worry about! There is a part raised area at the front where speakers and musicians are – approx. 12m x 4m. From the front of the raised area to the back wall is 13m with a max width of 15m and ceiling height of 4m.

 

We need a system that can cope with speech, singers, an MP3 type device that is used for backing tracks and a band (drums, bass, acoustic guitar, keys and vocals). It also needs to support a proposed new TV screen system plus various community meetings during the week when one or more mics might be needed. We are short on people who are technically minded so simple operation is important. Typical attendance is between 60 and 70 on a Sunday but can peak at 100 plus. We’ve no money, every penny will have to be raised, so budget is important. We have to get three quotes, two of these will be from supply and install companies used to working in churches and the third will be from me.

 

First supply and install quote has come in at between £9k to £14k dependent on options. This may prove too expensive / over spec’d. Incs an A&H QU mixer, EV or Citronic passive speakers, Sennheiser or JTS wireless mics. I'd not heard of either Citronic or JTS before.

 

Having spent time reading this and other forums plus meeting with some folk I know who run the tech side of a larger church but who understand what is needed for a smaller set up, I’m thinking of.

 

1. Behringer X32 desk plus S16 stage box. Had a long discussion about whether a physical desk was needed but conclusion was it’s easier for a non tech person to operate on the fly plus recall scenes for different meeting types.

2. dB LVX active speakers. These are used in a small set up at another church and seem to be perfectly fine to me – only question is 10” or 12”? Plan to use speaker stands, at least initially to simplify the install process.

3. Behringer F122OD powered monitors, probably 2 (and can also be used as a simple portable PA on occasions outside or elsewhere on the premises)

4. Sennheiser XSW 2-ME3 headset mics, I’m still confused about which band I need.

5. Sennheiser XSW 2-835 handheld wireless mic.

6. Sennheiser E835S mics for vocalists.

 

Plus all the sundries – cables, stands, rack case, DI boxes etc and a tablet for remote mixing.

 

I’ve not included a sub but think that might be something that should be added and I’m wondering if there is a more cost effective solution for the wireless mics.

 

I reckon I could source all of this for around £6k and that install would not be difficult (although there is a hearing loop amp system that needs plumbing in). With the saving on the cheapest other quote we could pay for all the new TV screens and ancillary bits.

 

How does that look? What am I missing or not considering?

Thanks.

 

[Phil Starr]

You probably need to concentrate on the building itself first. Lot's of hard surfaces so sound is going to be reflected and you'll have multiple pathways to the congregation particularly as you look at the rows at the back. That means poor intelligeability  for speech in particular. the needs are very different to those for music. You'll want everyone to have a good experience and a singe pair of speakers at the front will mean uncomfortable volumes at the front and possible inaudibility at the back. I'm assuming the lessons/sermons are more important than the music? You may find something with controlled directional patterns is particularly important and for a permanent venue a mix of short and long throw speakers will give more controllable coverage of the area. An installed system is very different to a band PA.

 

The Behringer software is particularly confusing and easy to get lost in, it may have knobs and buttons but there are much simpler systems to operate. Again I wonder if the music and speech needs might conflict here. I also wouldn't really recommend the Behringer 1220's

 

I'm cooking at the moment so I'll revisit if you want me to look at this further for you another day

[SuperSeagull]

13 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

You probably need to concentrate on the building itself first. Lot's of hard surfaces so sound is going to be reflected and you'll have multiple pathways to the congregation particularly as you look at the rows at the back. That means poor intelligeability  for speech in particular. the needs are very different to those for music. You'll want everyone to have a good experience and a singe pair of speakers at the front will mean uncomfortable volumes at the front and possible inaudibility at the back. I'm assuming the lessons/sermons are more important than the music? You may find something with controlled directional patterns is particularly important and for a permanent venue a mix of short and long throw speakers will give more controllable coverage of the area. An installed system is very different to a band PA.

 

The Behringer software is particularly confusing and easy to get lost in, it may have knobs and buttons but there are much simpler systems to operate. Again I wonder if the music and speech needs might conflict here. I also wouldn't really recommend the Behringer 1220's

 

I'm cooking at the moment so I'll revisit if you want me to look at this further for you another day

Thanks. Happy to pop over and chat over that meal you are cooking 😃 Alternatively, yes further thoughts welcome. Speech is the priority - currently delivered via three small ceiling mounted JBLs at the front of the seated area. 

[SimonK]

44 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

You probably need to concentrate on the building itself first. Lot's of hard surfaces so sound is going to be reflected and you'll have multiple pathways to the congregation particularly as you look at the rows at the back. That means poor intelligeability  for speech in particular. the needs are very different to those for music. You'll want everyone to have a good experience and a singe pair of speakers at the front will mean uncomfortable volumes at the front and possible inaudibility at the back. I'm assuming the lessons/sermons are more important than the music? You may find something with controlled directional patterns is particularly important and for a permanent venue a mix of short and long throw speakers will give more controllable coverage of the area. An installed system is very different to a band PA.

 

The Behringer software is particularly confusing and easy to get lost in, it may have knobs and buttons but there are much simpler systems to operate. Again I wonder if the music and speech needs might conflict here. I also wouldn't really recommend the Behringer 1220's

 

I'm cooking at the moment so I'll revisit if you want me to look at this further for you another day

 

Yes exactly this. The one thing almost every church has in common is well meaning but totally naive PA operators who can make any system sound rubbish. But deadening the room as much as possible is a good start. You can do things like hide acoustic foam behind banners, put a curtain behind the musicians as a backdrop, carpet with thick underlay underneath the musicians, make an artistic looking diffuser to hang on a reflective wall, and probably the best thing is to aim for a silent stage using IEMs and an electric kit, although appreciate all of this brings lots of politics!

 

We've spent a lot on our system - upwards of £60k over the last ten years, and while it sounds awesome in the right hands, even starting from stored setting doesn't help some of our operators. I had someone readjusting all the gains in a stored programme the other day to make the faders line up neatly... sigh...

[Phil Starr]

OK loks like @SimonK has more practical experience than I do of this in terms of churches. I come at it from a basic knowledge of acoustics a few community events and years of operating PA systems for bands. Fortunately for you there are loads of videos about PA and worship bands on You Tube mainly American based but useful in your case because yours is a new building in terme of the history of churches

 

I think he has Identified the human issue really well. I was picturing one of the all in one stick systems as being potentially more appropriate for an inexperienced user. Some of them come with a very simple mixer built in. They would be loud enough for anything short of an all out rock band with an all out heavy hitting drummer, pack away tidily and be simple to set up. Like Simon an eKit for drums would be my ideal.

 

Before offerering any further advice it would be good to know the size and shape of the building.

 

Chicken curry in an almond and lentil based sauce, spiced with coriander and cardamom, touch of cumin and chillies from the greenhouse. I'll save you some

 

 

[Owen]

12 hours ago, SimonK said:

I had someone readjusting all the gains in a stored programme the other day to make the faders line up neatly... sigh...

I love it!!!!!!!!!

[warwickhunt]

I'd like to add a little personal experience re similar... identical situation (I had to check your location)!    

 

I was asked by my Mother in Law if I could look over quotes they had for a PA system for their church; they had quotes which were eye watering and totally inflated/unnecessary.  My greatest concern (aside from price) was that there was no/little provision for the hearing loop (you do tend to get a few users in church settings) and the user interface.  

 

I'm really sorry but unless there is a person always on hand to operate ALL of these systems, there is no way a non-muso could operate the PA; complex desks, radio mics etc etc.  

 

I can't point you to the ideal solution but please take on board these main two points, hearing loop and ease of use (by all).  

 

Good luck.

[Beedster]

2 minutes ago, warwickhunt said:

I'm really sorry but unless there is a person always on hand to operate ALL of these systems, there is no way a non-muso could operate the PA; complex desks, radio mics etc etc.  

 

Absolutely

 

13 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

You probably need to concentrate on the building itself first.

 

This ^

 

You could spend multiples of your budget on the best audio gear and still not get the solution you want. The difference between listening to even unamplified speech in an acoustically treated verses untreated space is huge, and it the difference usually increases the more the voice is amplified/processed. Treating the room would not only reframe and likely optimise any audio solution you choose but significantly reduce the costs of that system.  

[SimonK]

1 hour ago, Phil Starr said:

OK looks like @SimonK has more practical experience than I do of this in terms of churches....

 

Yes ...the devil will find it hard to match the hell of operating PA systems in a church environment 🤐 ...

 

The one thing maybe worth mentioning is that while the OP manages the politics of trying to improve the acoustics of the room, get any company giving you quotes to look at zoning your hall and concentrate your budget on the controller, amps and speakers needed. As was mentioned above a band set-up with some big cabs at the front never works in odd shaped church buildings (both modern & old). Once the zones are set up and everything (like relevant delays, HPFs and even EQ if you can go that far) are set up this is something that no one should have to touch again, so less opportunity for the operators to break. You can then get a cheaper desk, wedges, snake, mics & cables etc. and upgrade as needed, but you know the core set-up is sound (pardon the pun).

[SuperSeagull]

Great input already, many thanks. Just to clarify a couple of points. Most importantly, that chicken curry sounds lush. Typical Sunday doesn’t have a band, just speech and MP3 playback. There are enough folk I’d judge competent to run a well set up system - couple of musicians, another person who looks after the current tech set up and does the same for a big local school - nobody is going to be mixing live for Def Leppard anytime soon but based on my many years in and around churches there is enough capability. 
 

Building is pretty much a box shape, 13m from the front of the platform to the back, 15m wide and 4m high. Plenty of banners to help with the hard surfaces but yes, can always use more - I’d judge it not a particularly difficult place acoustically given other places I’ve been in but plan is to get carpet under the band and I think it’s a good reminder to look at how other surfaces can be softened. We have a wooden slatted ceiling which may help. 
 

IEM - feels like overkill given relatively little use of live band. I used IEMs at a much bigger Church so appreciate the upside and the downside but I don’t think right for us at the moment.
 

Stick type system, interesting thought. Whatever we do, nothing needs to be packed away after a service. Having spent years at a Church where everything came out of a container pre service and had to go back afterwards this is a massive benefit. 
 

Current system is a simple one power switch on and a variety of mics come on at something like the right level. I was thinking the same simplicity using the capability of a digital desk and better quality speakers etc but with more inputs  for the wider range of signal sources we now have and more flexibility for the wider range of events that we are now happening. But get the comment that a well meaning but unskilled person can make the best kit sound rubbish - you’ve obviously heard me play bass 😂

[Huge Hands]

Hi all,

 

Just my 10p - that quote you have been given doesn't sound too different to a lot of professional install companies I have worked with, when you consider the potential labour in professionally (and safely) hanging speakers, running cables, termination etc.  Obviously I'm reading between the lines here of what they have quoted you for.

 

It may not be an issue in your old (but not that old) church, but I remember the conundrum of trying to find cable routes in centuries old churches without upsetting the historical purists!  I would imagine they may have added some contingency for this kind of thing.

 

Having said that, if you can only get cheaper kit for £6K, then the labour doesn't seem too much after all.  I am just trying to give a balanced view here, not criticising. 

 

If you do go down the route of doing it yourself, hope it all goes well.

 

   

[SuperSeagull]

6 minutes ago, Huge Hands said:

Hi all,

 

Just my 10p - that quote you have been given doesn't sound too different to a lot of professional install companies I have worked with, when you consider the potential labour in professionally (and safely) hanging speakers, running cables, termination etc.  Obviously I'm reading between the lines here of what they have quoted you for.

 

It may not be an issue in your old (but not that old) church, but I remember the conundrum of trying to find cable routes in centuries old churches without upsetting the historical purists!  I would imagine they may have added some contingency for this kind of thing.

 

Having said that, if you can only get cheaper kit for £6K, then the labour doesn't seem too much after all.  I am just trying to give a balanced view here, not criticising. 

 

If you do go down the route of doing it yourself, hope it all goes well.

 

   

Yes, the question of how much do we value someone else doing all the heavy lifting of supply and install, in some cases literally heavy lifting, is a good one. Is it worth £3k? It’s close I think but would mean sacrificing spend in other areas but it’s always about choices I guess. 

[Chienmortbb]

I think there is some good advice here and the words about acoustically treating the room is key.

 

The problem you have a need for two or more systems. One a simple speech based system, the other one for a band. For a simple speech background music, something like a Cloud Mixer plus amp. These allow a simple system and you can have small control boxes on the wall at strategic points with a mic, aux input and remote volume control. All the  EQ and gain settings are on the back  of the racked mixer well out of Tommy Twiddler's reach,  a set and forget system. Cloud stuff is not as cheap as say Adastra etc. but it is built to last and IMHO, having installed a few systems, bullet proof. It is quite affordable second hand.

 

As for the band system, Rather than the Qu, would the CQ20 work? Cheaper and still has 16 mic/line inputs, 2 of which are Hi-Z and will take a guitar/bass directly. It does need a screen, tablet  or computer to operate, usually via WiFi, but you can hard wire those by Ethernet, again to stop Tommy Twiddler gaining access.

 

Speakers, after using various PA cabs over the years, I recently found a good reason for having a narrow dispersion angle, a pair of 60x60 degree cabinets used for monitoring, cured most of our feedback problems. Most places of worship are long and thin so a more directional system may work better for you.

Narrow beam speakers for PA are hard to find now so you may need to look beyond the usual suspects. A quick look shows the passive Wharfedale Pro GPL-12HQ.15HQ staring at just under £1000, going up to the (ouch) PD500 range from JBL.

 

Wharfedale Pro are designed in the UK and the staff there are very knowledgeable. Sound Technology, the UK distributor for JBL/Harmon are also happy to chat. Of course the other option is an array but that starts to become very expensive.

 

From standard PA ranges the best you can get at a reasonable price would be a 90x60 dispersion and as was said in an earlier post, it may be worthwhile using satellite speakers placed along the room, this would allow lower overall speaker volume, reduce the effective coverage angle but will increase system complexity, as you will need to delay the speakers further from the front using some type of DSP/speaker management solution. You may be able to do this with the right choice of digital mixer. You can do this with the Qu and CQ mixer as well as with most digital mixers.

 

Sadly you are getting more questions than answers but we are all here to help/confuse you further.

[Chienmortbb]

47 minutes ago, SuperSeagull said:

But get the comment that a well meaning but unskilled person can make the best kit sound rubbish - you’ve obviously heard me play bass 😂

You could use the "you" apps that some mixers have, usually designde for a personal monitor mix, they only allow volume adjustments to a limited number of sources/mixes and do not alter  FoH.

Edited September 30 by Chienmortbb

[SimonK]

1 hour ago, SuperSeagull said:

Building is pretty much a box shape, 13m from the front of the platform to the back, 15m wide and 4m high.

 

...I'd still really focus on what the quotes are saying about speaker placement and zoning rather than worry too much about the desk or other parts. While the desk is the exciting bit, from the sound of your needs there is a risk of overkill. Even with a cheaper digital desk you can set up a "Sunday morning" programme for the mics and mp3, that hopefully people can just turn on, hit recall, and then get going with the service.

[Beedster]

8 minutes ago, SimonK said:

 

...I'd still really focus on what the quotes are saying about speaker placement and zoning rather than worry too much about the desk or other parts. While the desk is the exciting bit, from the sound of your needs there is a risk of overkill. Even with a cheaper digital desk you can set up a "Sunday morning" programme for the mics and mp3, that hopefully people can just turn on, hit recall, and then get going with the service.

 

I've no experience of having PA installed so perhaps an acoustic analysis is part of the process, but if not, and even thought it's a simple shaped room with lots of banners, it's probably worth a visit from an acoustics consultant. I have to do a lot of speaking to groups professionally. While most rooms I'm in are regular shaped, the difference between speaking in a treated versus not treated room is huge. In some treated room I can get away without using a  mic (which is always preferable), whereas in some untreated rooms even a good mic and PA sound crap.

[Owen]

There are lots and lots of variables here. But one of the really cheap things which will make a huge difference is actually training everyone who will be close to a mic. People are genuinely clueless with mic work. Shockingly so.

[SuperSeagull]

30 minutes ago, Beedster said:

 

I've no experience of having PA installed so perhaps an acoustic analysis is part of the process, but if not, and even thought it's a simple shaped room with lots of banners, it's probably worth a visit from an acoustics consultant. I have to do a lot of speaking to groups professionally. While most rooms I'm in are regular shaped, the difference between speaking in a treated versus not treated room is huge. In some treated room I can get away without using a  mic (which is always preferable), whereas in some untreated rooms even a good mic and PA sound crap.

My youngest son has a PhD in Acoustic Engineering and 3D sound systems - he is going to call by the next church next time he is visiting his old man, he just doesn't know it yet. 

Edited September 30 by SuperSeagull

[Chienmortbb]

 I would agree that good acoustic treatment is you friend but there are simple measures you can take. Firstly heavy lined curtains behind the band will improve your onstage sound. 
 

If the windows have curtains think about  adding aftermarket linings. These will save heat as well so not just a sound issue. Stand in the church and clap. If you hear an echo, that is part of the problem. Acoutic treatments are expensive and not always aesthetically pleasing so drape where you can. 
 

If you can get advice from an acoustic engineer, take it but remember that some sound controlling techniques do not  need to come from the “PA” budget. 
 

There is a. PA shootout at the Sw bass bash in two weeks and there will be lots of gear to look at. I will bring my CQ20 if you want.

[SuperSeagull]

7 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

 I would agree that good acoustic treatment is you friend but there are simple measures you can take. Firstly heavy lined curtains behind the band will improve your onstage sound. 
 

If the windows have curtains think about  adding aftermarket linings. These will save heat as well so not just a sound issue. Stand in the church and clap. If you hear an echo, that is part of the problem. Acoutic treatments are expensive and not always aesthetically pleasing so drape where you can. 
 

If you can get advice from an acoustic engineer, take it but remember that some sound controlling techniques do not  need to come from the “PA” budget. 
 

There is a. PA shootout at the Sw bass bash in two weeks and there will be lots of gear to look at. I will bring my CQ20 if you want.

Would have loved to have joined but I shall be grabbing some winter sun in the Canaries. Would be interested in the outcomes from the PA shootout.

 

Re acoustics - the natural reverb isn't bad but can always be improved - eg we have no window coverings at all.....yet!

[Huge Hands]

4 hours ago, SuperSeagull said:

Yes, the question of how much do we value someone else doing all the heavy lifting of supply and install, in some cases literally heavy lifting, is a good one. Is it worth £3k? It’s close I think but would mean sacrificing spend in other areas but it’s always about choices I guess. 

In my experience. a lot of these companies will use freelance installers costing them up to (and beyond) £500 a day to do things like specialist hanging and termination - which they will pass straight on to your bill.  My experience is old and before a lot of the CAT5 stuff, but even so, if doing that properly it would be cut to length and crimped cables behind a wall plate, not just an off the shelf lead with a load of spare length left coiled behind your speaker.    In the more extreme cases, it's all very well clipping a couple of speakers to a roof girder, but can it actually handle that weight with everything else it is holding up, secondary safety points etc etc..?

 

When you factor in stuff like this and working at 4m height needing footed ladders or scaff towers, I can see how the labour charges are in that ballpark very quickly. 

 

However, if it was just to supply a couple of speakers on poles, a mixer and a few cables, I can see how that would be excessive.   

Edited September 30 by Huge Hands

[Phil Starr]

7 hours ago, SuperSeagull said:

 

Building is pretty much a box shape, 13m from the front of the platform to the back, 15m wide and 4m high. Plenty of banners to help with the hard surfaces but yes, can always use more - I’d judge it not a particularly difficult place acoustically given other places I’ve been in but plan is to get carpet under the band and I think it’s a good reminder to look at how other surfaces can be softened. We have a wooden slatted ceiling which may help. 

OK that's good, wider than it is long could make it easier and the lack of depth may mean you don't need repeaters so the people at the back can hear. If the front row of seats are 4m from the speakers and the rear ones 11m then the sound levels between the two won't be impossibly different, it will fall around 10dB or by about half subjectively; the difference between an average room in the house and an average office.

 

A plain cube shape helps in the sense of being a simple shape with no intrusions simplifying multiple pathways it won't necessarily reduce all feedback issues but should make it easier to work out where they are coming from and strtegically damp them. I was going to suggest you test the reverberation time in the hall and then use RTA to measure it's frequency response. Your son may be able to help with that. The shape of the hall suggests to me that a couple of column speakers might do all of the work. A broad flat pattern would keep the sound from bouncing off the ceiling and the congregation are a great sound dampener to stop floor reflections. Acoustic treatment of the hall could be quite expensive so it would be good to minimise this cost.

 

Have a look at this, it's a great primer and very visual in explaining what you are trying to achieve.

 

 

 

[SuperSeagull]

3 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

OK that's good, wider than it is long could make it easier and the lack of depth may mean you don't need repeaters so the people at the back can hear. If the front row of seats are 4m from the speakers and the rear ones 11m then the sound levels between the two won't be impossibly different, it will fall around 10dB or by about half subjectively; the difference between an average room in the house and an average office.

 

A plain cube shape helps in the sense of being a simple shape with no intrusions simplifying multiple pathways it won't necessarily reduce all feedback issues but should make it easier to work out where they are coming from and strtegically damp them. I was going to suggest you test the reverberation time in the hall and then use RTA to measure it's frequency response. Your son may be able to help with that. The shape of the hall suggests to me that a couple of column speakers might do all of the work. A broad flat pattern would keep the sound from bouncing off the ceiling and the congregation are a great sound dampener to stop floor reflections. Acoustic treatment of the hall could be quite expensive so it would be good to minimise this cost.

 

Have a look at this, it's a great primer and very visual in explaining what you are trying to achieve.

 

 

 

That's great. As you say, very visual. Thanks. 

[SuperSeagull]

Just by way of an update on this. I've been chatting with another supply and install business with a good understanding of church needs. They are going to do a site visit next month but have already suggested we look at a A&H Matrix system which gives a one switch on and off solution with auto volume on the mics, plus an A&H mixer for when we want more flexibility for live music and have an operator.