Kev Posted October 13 Share Posted October 13 29 minutes ago, itu said: No, Fender is not about innovation, just marketing the tradition. Which, to be fair, is absolutely fine and they're still doing extremely well I'm sure. I hate the milking the fan base stuff with release after release, but ultimately that's down to players falling for it. But just don't claim to be innovators in your marketing 🙃 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyJohnson Posted October 13 Share Posted October 13 56 minutes ago, itu said: Hamer would be a real, and interesting possibility, but I think they have to concentrate on those reliced models. Skilled workforce beating pristine instruments - must be a nightmare. Fender marketing - because RnD is non existent - might drive Hamer to produce a P bass with some nice, limited run colour every year. Luthiery would be wasted, so they'd choose a CNC machine, and few Mexican construction workers. No, Fender is not about innovation, just marketing the tradition. The original Hamer business was acquired by Kaman at the end of the 80s - some production was done in Korea and Indonesia - Fender acquired Kaman end of 2007 and shut down Hamer five years later. Kaman owned several brands, Fender hived off some of these but ultimately killed off Hamer as a brand. They weren't a threat to Fender or anything...they were a business producing Gibson-esque instruments, but there's innovation for you. Hamer could have continued, but Fender effectively wiped them out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stub Mandrel Posted October 13 Share Posted October 13 8 hours ago, NancyJohnson said: If the fit and finish of new instruments was 100%, there should be no requirement for micro-tilt necks ( Micro tilt basses are made so a degree of tilt is needed if the bridge pieces aren't to be unnaturally low (which is how I have alwaysvhad my performer). That said, you are essentially right, but lots of people would rather shim than drop the bridge pieces on other basses... 8 hours ago, NancyJohnson said: 3. TBX tone control. Hmm. Never seen one in use, but in theory doesn't it just ape a regular Varitone pot (which Gibson used on the Ripper)? Similar aim but very different execution. 8 hours ago, NancyJohnson said: 2. Aerodyne body shape. Well fundamentally, these are just Jazz/Precision body shapes with binding and without rolled edges or too much chamfering. Surely Gibson were making Les Pauls in the 50s with binding and 90° edges? And a curved top surface that 'eliminates' the need for a chamfer. Alledgedly. Lots of people have copied elements of it. 8 hours ago, NancyJohnson said: 6. 'Paranormal' series mixing and matching features. FMIC board visiting Mexican/Japanese plants: "What are all those bodies and necks over there?" Floor manager: "They're parts that we haven't put together yet." But some of them have people drooling over the 'new' designs. 8 hours ago, NancyJohnson said: 7. The little string hook thst fits on the A tuner. WOW! 8. Fender Fatfinger. Good grief. I have some snake oil in my garage if you're interested. Innovation doesn't have to be epic, effective or even succesful, it just has to be new. 9 hours ago, NancyJohnson said: 5. Antigua finish... Stretching things here Stub. It takes courage to launch a line of turdburst coloured instruments. 9 hours ago, NancyJohnson said: 10. Modelling amps that focus on one classic amp and do it well. Why not just keep producing those classic amps, rather than dozens of amps trying to be those classic amps. They have made amps people admire to more affordable. That's new whatever your view on the execution 9 hours ago, NancyJohnson said: 12. Relicing. Nope, just nope. Relicing became mainstream after Keef Richards sent back a batch of instruments because they felt too new and Fender "roughed them up". First mainstream manufacturer to do this afaik. 9 hours ago, NancyJohnson said: 9. Grasping that the 'budget series' should offer a quality playing experience to help build loyalty and aspiration to the more expensive instruments. They are the masters of market segmentation. I think this is spot on. Hooray! We agree after all! You're my pal you are! But seriously my point is Fender do introduce/mainstream new ideas, whether they are feeble or unsuccessful isn't really relevant. The reputation for no change ever is tad undeserved. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolverinebass Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 I think there is going to be a lot of disappointment if folk are expecting much other than different paint colours. It's not like Fender are ever going to do anything like say a complete one piece graphite moulded precision are they? Or something really radically different. For all those saying that Fender are just resting on previous accomplishments, I would ask what are Ernie Ball and Rickenbacker doing then? Ploughing a trough in the realms of futurism? Of course not. They're just doing exactly the same thing. Different colours and inflating the price. Maybe Ernie Ball most egregiously I might add. It seems to be that innovation for those companies won't ever work commercially, which is a shame as I'm sure they're perfectly capable of it. People want what they want and it doesn't seem to change much in that regard for the majority of bass players. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cetera Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 It's actually a no-win situation. No-one really wants anything cutting edge and new from Fender, Gibson etc. They just want what they do.... done well! e.g. Gibson should reissue Grabber, Ripper & G3 properly and make the Epiphone models more authentic. It just becomes prompts a sly grin and chuckle when they announce an 'innovation' launch and then make something no-one wants.... or just add a few new colours... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 5 minutes ago, Wolverinebass said: I think there is going to be a lot of disappointment if folk are expecting much other than different paint colours. It's not like Fender are ever going to do anything like say a complete one piece graphite moulded precision are they? Or something really radically different. For all those saying that Fender are just resting on previous accomplishments, I would ask what are Ernie Ball and Rickenbacker doing then? Ploughing a trough in the realms of futurism? Of course not. They're just doing exactly the same thing. Different colours and inflating the price. Maybe Ernie Ball most egregiously I might add. It seems to be that innovation for those companies won't ever work commercially, which is a shame as I'm sure they're perfectly capable of it. People want what they want and it doesn't seem to change much in that regard for the majority of bass players. "Innovation never rests" Its bold if its just colours and a new name for the same pickup. Difference with Ernie Ball and Rickenbacker is they don't do the same thing. The Stingray Special was the first time they reinvented the wheel since the 3EQ model came out. Sure they have the Classic Series and the replacement Retro series and a couple of artist models, but they don't seem to drag their fanbase to anywhere near the same degree. Same with Ric. Nothing like the same marketing philosophies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolverinebass Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 2 minutes ago, Kev said: "Innovation never rests" Its bold if its just colours and a new name for the same pickup. Difference with Ernie Ball and Rickenbacker is they don't do the same thing. The Stingray Special was the first time they reinvented the wheel since the 3EQ model came out. Sure they have the Classic Series and the replacement Retro series and a couple of artist models, but they don't seem to drag their fanbase to anywhere near the same degree. Same with Ric. Nothing like the same marketing philosophies. To be fair Kev, I was just making the point that they haven't changed much and that when they have, it hasn't sold so well. Rick's 4004 doesn't sell that well does it. Certainly not in comparison to the 4003. In the Ernie Ball case, I would say that the pricing is what I'd take issue with. Almost 3 grand for a Stingray? Is that not dragging the fan base a bit for a few new colours? Maybe you could argue the Darkray was innovative, (it certainly was interesting as a concept) but when I tried one I was sad that I didn't like it and I really thought I would. I've played a few older and newer ones. I wouldn't say there was a massively huge difference, but there is a difference. I would say I'd get a newer one if they went back to the 43mm nut actually. I really liked the 2019 Stingray Special HH actually and I've played a couple since then too. We all like what we like. Or not as the case may be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stub Mandrel Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 5 hours ago, cetera said: No-one really wants anything cutting edge and new from Fender, Gibson etc. They just want what they do.... done well! e.g. Gibson should reissue Grabber, Ripper & G3 properly and make the Epiphone models more authentic. It got missed that I highlighted the new Squier paranormal Troublemaker Telecaster deluxe. Actually a reissue of a Fender line. Twin humbuckers, tunomatic bridge, stop tailpiece, rear mounted dual tone and volume with top-hat knobs. Colours black or gold. Basically a Les Paul with a Tele body, neck and headstock. The 'Troublemaker' name proving they at least have a sense of humour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stub Mandrel Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 5 hours ago, cetera said: Gibson should ... make the Epiphone models more authentic. They have. Low end and original Epiphones now have the 1970s Epiphone headstock, high-end versions of Gibsons have a Gibson headstock. Very popular change from the 'clipped corner' years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 6 hours ago, cetera said: It's actually a no-win situation. No-one really wants anything cutting edge and new from Fender, Gibson etc. They just want what they do.... done well! e.g. Gibson should reissue Grabber, Ripper & G3 properly and make the Epiphone models more authentic. It just becomes prompts a sly grin and chuckle when they announce an 'innovation' launch and then make something no-one wants.... or just add a few new colours... That’s the truth of it 👍 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prowla Posted October 15 Share Posted October 15 16 hours ago, Wolverinebass said: To be fair Kev, I was just making the point that they haven't changed much and that when they have, it hasn't sold so well. Rick's 4004 doesn't sell that well does it. Certainly not in comparison to the 4003. People complained that Rics did this/that/whatever, so RIC produced a model which addressed it all. Everybody carried on buying the ones that they'd been complaining about anyway. The 4004 isno longer in production. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cetera Posted October 15 Share Posted October 15 12 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said: They have. Low end and original Epiphones now have the 1970s Epiphone headstock, high-end versions of Gibsons have a Gibson headstock. Very popular change from the 'clipped corner' years. I'm talking the shape of the Tbird Vintage Pro, the lack of moving pickup and pickguard shape on the Grabber etc. Easy things done wrong.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neepheid Posted October 15 Share Posted October 15 39 minutes ago, cetera said: I'm talking the shape of the Tbird Vintage Pro Oh, not you too! Why not just enjoy the best T-bird Gibson never made for what it is? I am 100% with you about the Grabber pickguard though - whoever passed that as OK needs an eye test, or had it described to them down the phone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cetera Posted October 15 Share Posted October 15 5 minutes ago, neepheid said: Oh, not you too! Why not just enjoy the best T-bird Gibson never made for what it is? I am 100% with you about the Grabber pickguard though - whoever passed that as OK needs an eye test, or had it described to them down the phone! I own two of them so I don't dislike it THAT much It's just lazy on the part of Gibson/Epiphone. Why make such a great instrument and then fall at the simplest of hurdles?! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev Posted October 15 Share Posted October 15 There once was a bassist named Hugh, Whose excitement was truly untrue. He waited all day, For Fender to say, "We've got nothing new, just for you." I suppose the 15th actually means sometime this evening? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stub Mandrel Posted October 15 Share Posted October 15 4 hours ago, cetera said: the lack of moving pickup and pickguard shape on the Grabber Maybe, but it is an obvious way to differentiate an Epiphone from the original and relatively costly to implement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neepheid Posted October 15 Share Posted October 15 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said: Maybe, but it is an obvious way to differentiate an Epiphone from the original and relatively costly to implement? Hardly, it's a shallow route plus a swimming pool in the body (CNC machine can take care of that) and one extra piece of plastic that the pickup is attached to which slides underneath the pickguard. That's it. (pic lifted from flyguitars.com) Edited October 15 by neepheid 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cato Posted October 15 Share Posted October 15 Love to be proven wrong but I'm 90% sure the announcement is about the already leaked next iteration of the Ultra range. The fact that the Meteora features in both the leaks and in silhouette in the promotional material for the new launch is the clincher. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grahambythesea Posted October 15 Share Posted October 15 Isn’t part of the problem the “successful” bands. They are seen playing Stratocasters, Telecasters, Les Pauls, 335s, Jazz and Precision basses, albeit possibly vintage ones but not much else. So understandingly aspiring musicians think that to sound like them they need those instruments, invariably cheaper copies, but something that at least looks similar. So the manufacturers provide for them in bucket loads! innovations don’t sell. There’s a history of disasters - Starcasters ( nice to see Snow Patrol using one on Strictly), auto tuners on Gibsons, the weird Roland midi bass, Rickenbacker 5 string basses, Gibson basses designed after 1970, need I go on. If you’re running a business, you need to make things that sell. Failures don’t make profits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted October 15 Share Posted October 15 On 12/10/2024 at 16:34, itu said: Design, or colour, meh. Budget series: a serially produced instrument produced in series in a lower cost country? Was the invention to use "Made in far east" tags? Partnership with Lace sensor, well why not DiMarzio? Where's the invention? Fatfinger was originally (GT) Fathead, before F bought the idea or the company. See previous. I think TBX and micro tilt adjustment are decent ideas, but that's not a lot. Is TBX even available for basses? It was introduced 1988 in an E.C. Strat. Stu Hamm model was different, though. Let's not forget that Fender were innovating in the late 70's; neck pockets significantly larger than the heel allowing the user to align the neck on the hoof with the equally innovative offset bridge, multiple layers of varnish on the neck allowing the user's hands to stick in place more efficiently, added weight allowed the player to secure better mechanical link with the floor (see Badass Bridge discussion) no doubt alleviating the need for later generations to invent the Buttkicker.......... Only joking, love 70's Fenders 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelDean Posted October 15 Share Posted October 15 And there you have it... A PJ, a Meteroa and 4 & 5 string Jazz basses with active electronics. Might be a new preamp on these as they've got two possible mid frequencies to choose from. https://www.fender.com/en-GB/american-ultra-ii-basses/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eude Posted October 15 Share Posted October 15 Just now, MichaelDean said: And there you have it... A PJ, a Meteroa and 4 & 5 string Jazz basses with active electronics. Might be a new preamp on these as they've got two possible mid frequencies to choose from. https://www.fender.com/en-GB/american-ultra-ii-basses/ "Innovation" my eye. And those prices!? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassApprentice Posted October 15 Author Share Posted October 15 Weirdly I like the Meteora in the more normal colours vs the brighter colours - but those retail prices are well and truly into fully custom build territory. I know I'm not the target market and I am sure they will be very nice basses, but that ain't cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simisker Posted October 15 Share Posted October 15 (edited) Yeah, I don't think we need to be afraid of being singed by the white hot crucible of innovation after all There are some sensible upgrades/evolutions across the range, the colour options are nice and non-vintage (I love the Solar Flare) - and it's great they're still giving the Meteora their backing. But oof - over £2k? That's a grand per mid-range frequency option. Not even a sweep! Two grand!! Edited October 15 by simisker 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cetera Posted October 15 Share Posted October 15 Well, they won't be selling many at those prices. Probably not enough to even cover their hyped launch..... 🤣 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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