PA Cab Shootout

[Chienmortbb]

Here is the video of the PA cab Shootout at the Bass Bash yesterday.   

 

 

[Al Krow]

12 hours ago, Chienmortbb said:

Here is the video of the PA cab Shootout at the Bass Bash yesterday.   

 

 

 

Thanks for sharing that. Could you note the time when each PA is playing at what point in the video for us please? 

[Phil Starr]

I'll come back and do a more detailed summary later but the order is the same for both sets.

 

RCF ART 310's with RCF ART 905 subs

RCF ART 745's

RCF Evox 8's

 

There is no reason for them all being RCF other than that is what we had to hand. The idea for doing this came from the discussion in this forum about what size speakers would be minimum for a band PA, whether the column speakers would be enough and the advantage of a big speaker versus small speakers and subs. The cost new ranges from £2380 for the 745's to £1554 for the Evox system so none of this was really 'budget' but not too far removed from the average gigging pub band.

 

There is no eq on the systems and I didn't get the chance to accurately set up the sub for the ART 310, it was done by ear and ideally it should have been measured and I'd have lked to use RTA to adjust for room acoustics. The subs were resonating the wooden stage. Recording was done with a Zoom camera. The volume was reasonably loud but a few db down on gig volumes and the recordings I used were from WAV files from CD's copied on to a memory stick.

 

Sadly I couldn't really hear much myself that would be of any use as I was stuck behind the speakers for most of the demonstration. I hope those who could hear will give their thoughts.

 

It says something about bassists that I noticed that 80% of the room were beating time during the demo

 

 

[Chienmortbb]

27 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

Recording was done with a Zoom camera.

I left the Micro SD card in my laptop so could not use the Zoom. The recording was done on my phone.

[Al Krow]

22 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

I left the Micro SD card in my laptop so could not use the Zoom. The recording was done on my phone.

 

Ah that's a shame - I'm guessing there was a fair bit of loss of low end from the phone mics and considerable further compression when uploaded to YT? 

 

Edited October 15 by Al Krow

[Al Krow]

54 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

I'll come back and do a more detailed summary later but the order is the same for both sets.

 

RCF ART 310's with RCF ART 905 subs

RCF ART 745's

RCF Evox 8's

 

Thanks Phil - I was hoping you could just let us know when each of the set ups comes up at what point in the video, as it's almost a 19 minute clip and be helpful in terms of going back and forth to compare?

[Chienmortbb]

53 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

Ah that's a shame - I'm guessing there was a fair bit of loss of low end from the phone mics and considerable further compression when uploaded to YT? 

 

There will be an HPF on the phone and YouTube will add some compression. As I was stood behind the phone/camera I can say that what I heard on the video was quite close to what went on in the hall. My other comments, the ART 310s were a long way apart and it did notice when walking around the room,  The ART745s were better than the EVOX "Sun ob a stick" and the ART 310s but the difference was not as much as I expected. The EVOX was very close to the 745 and based on this short shootout, was probably the best "tea chest bass" system I have heard. To clarify I have heard Bose, Yamaha, LD Systems and all three have a nasty mid range that spoil the vocal sound, although this could be the wetware and/or crappy wireless mics in use.,rather than the system. YMMV

[Pirellithecat]

Thanks Phil.  Interesting!  Notwithstanding the difficulties of capturing the sound and playing it back via Headphones, there do seem to be some differences.  The first piece of music was surprisingly "close" between the 745's and the Evox, but the Wishbone Ash piece seemed to more clearly show the differences.  For me the systems using the subs were less coherent and more boomy than the 745's. The EVOX, when the full band/vocals were at full flood, just fell apart in terms of the treble/mid presentation.  For me they produced an unpleasant, congested sound in those sections. Probably my ears and the capture on phone, or expectation bias.   I heard a set of the Evox's at an outdoor gig being played pretty loudly, and, to my ears, they sounded very wearing/unpleasant.  That's a pity because they would be ideal in terms of transport and stage set-up.      

[Chienmortbb]

3 hours ago, Pirellithecat said:

heard a set of the Evox's at an outdoor gig being played pretty loudly, and, to my ears, they sounded very wearing/unpleasant.  That's a pity because they would be ideal in terms of transport and stage set-up.   

This is exactly the sound I hess as t from other sub on a stick systems and in the hall  it was the guitar sound on the Wishbone Ash song that really showed the difference. The EVOX could not match the 745. 
 

This was not what I was expecting as I considered the Evox to be the best of these systems. As @Phil Starrand @stevie have said, it is the compression driver/horn combination that sets the best from the rest. 

[Woodinblack]

For me (in person at the event) - I liked the 745 and the Evox system equally (which is good as the evox was mine) - the 745 had more top top, the evox had more high middle, but they are not quite the same. The evox had more bass boom during the wishbone ash track, which I willl put down to the wooden stage as I hadn't heard that before. I prefered the evox on the first track, probably due to the vocals (which is a shame as that is nothing like ours), I thing the 745 sounded a bit better in the WA track because of the lack of boom.  The 10" fell apart during the WA track because as soon as the bass kicked in you couldn't hear the guitars at all.  Overall I was pretty happy in that I didn't feel (in person) the evox were lacking so my chase for a PA system is pretty well at an end (and I wouldn't want to carry the 745s in the first place!)

[Richard R]

Thanks Phil, and to those who've commented too.

I shall get headphones and a mug of tea later on.

[Phil Starr]

If you want to skip to the important bits:

 

First song is Western Highway by Maura O'Connell

 

RCF ART310's +905 sub 2.20

RCF ART 745's 4.20

RCF Evox 8's 6.55

 

Second song is Blowing Free by Wishbone Ash

 

RCF ART310's +905 sub 10.25

RCF ART 745's 12.12

RCF Evox 8's  13.45

 

[Chienmortbb]

6 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

For me (in person at the event) - I liked the 745 and the Evox system equally (which is good as the evox was mine) - the 745 had more top top, the evox had more high middle, but they are not quite the same. The evox had more bass boom during the wishbone ash track, which I willl put down to the wooden stage as I hadn't heard that before. I prefered the evox on the first track, probably due to the vocals (which is a shame as that is nothing like ours), I thing the 745 sounded a bit better in the WA track because of the lack of boom.  The 10" fell apart during the WA track because as soon as the bass kicked in you couldn't hear the guitars at all.  Overall I was pretty happy in that I didn't feel (in person) the evox were lacking so my chase for a PA system is pretty well at an end (and I wouldn't want to carry the 745s in the first place!)

To be fair I thought the EVOX handled things pretty well but the guitars in the Wishbone Ash track were how I remember them on the 745s. If I had to carry them, the EVOX would win hands down, or is that hands up?

[Woodinblack]

The only thing I noticed on the evox was the boom, which I assume was the stage - I guess I am normally on flagstone floors!

I also think it might have sounded better off the stage as the mid response doesn't really seem to be as strong much below or above the pole height, whereas side to side is quite a lot better (until you get to 90 degrees off axis and then it plummets).

The RCFs were certainly better at highs I think,  but I would have expected them to be a lot better anyway

 

 

[Stub Mandrel]

1 hour ago, Phil Starr said:

First song is Western Highway by Maura O'Connell

 

Thank you.

 

It almost had a Pentangle feel.

[Richard R]

I think I'm with the others in that the 745s just shade the Evox, but it's within the margin of error listening on YT, and I didn't hear anthing that suitable eq for the room wouldn't resolve.

 

The minor problem I had was with the second track. I spent much of it distracted as the intro reminded me of a completely different song which I couldn't quite place.

It's  just popped into my head -  "Hold you back" by Status Quo.

 

(Apologies to anyone who ends up with that earworm all day at work.)

 

[Phil Starr]

FWIW I set out to answer some specific questions:

 

Could you run a PA with just a couple of fairly modest 10" tops if you also used a sub?

How would that compare with a similar priced set up with 15" tops?

How capable are the mid priced line source PA set ups and are these a viable option for a band PA.

 

We've been arguing this one for a while in various threads so the opportunity to put this to the test was too good to miss. @Woodinblack and I have been talking about doing the comparison for a while and maybe inviting a select few to try things out too. The bass bash seemed a good way of doing this and letting more people make their own minds up.

 

So my take was that I'd happily take any of these out as my bands PA. None of them sounded anything other than good and that is what you should expect. A PA shouldn't really have a sound. If I'd had more time (90 mins to set up three PA's before people came in) it would have been good to eq each PA to the room, specifically the bass from the bins which were too loud from the 10+sub and I think I could have lost the boom from the Evox too. I also had some budget Wharfedale Titans there which I think would have surprised people and would have liked to have tried the 10's without the subs.

 

I've gigged with the ART 310's and a sub they can sound really impressive set, up properly.

I don't think many people in an audience would notice but the midrange capability of the ART745's did shine through when comparing A/B but at a £500 premium over the 10+sub system and £800 over the Evox.

I think the Evox is there in terms of usability, after the first round it was probably the preferred system for the acoustic music from the comments I got on the day.

 

That answers my initial questions and the conclusion I draw from this is that different systems are appropriate for each band. If no-one can lift 15"tops onto a stand then they are immediately out of the running for a band. Using 10's and a sub make more sense and you'll get some really solid bass. For the cost of the 745's you could easily buy something like the NX10's and an ART705 (and you don't need to stick to RCF) which would out perform the speakers I had on the day. The Evox were the easiest to set up and move around, probably safer in a crowded venue and sounded good. These are all good options and you need to think practicality as well as sound.

 

[Phil Starr]

9 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

Thank you.

 

It almost had a Pentangle feel.

I first came across her on an album called 'A Woman's Heart' a compilation of female Irish singers. The recordings of just about all of them are fabulous. Also worth checking out is Dolores Keane. First Bouree by Jethro Tull and now Pentangle, we must share a record colection

[Woodinblack]

1 hour ago, Phil Starr said:

I think the Evox is there in terms of usability, after the first round it was probably the preferred system for the acoustic music from the comments I got on the day.

 

I thought so too, which is a shame considering how far away from that my group is

 

[Chienmortbb]

In my opinion, the EVOX and the 745s were very close on the acoustic track and it was only the guitar sound on the Wishbone Ash track that really made a difference to me, I grew up with WA and the sound through various HiFi systems is ingrained  in my memory. In saying that I always say that the ears have no memory so take that with a pinch of salt.

 

I have also heard Phil's ART 310s on a separate occasion and agree that I would be happy to gig with any of them for vocals only or putting most of the band through the PA the big issue that both @Phil Starrand @Woodinblack highlight in different ways is that a misused SUB can spoil any sound.

[Woodinblack]

Trouble with all these things, there is a limited amount of time and the sheer fact of moving these thing around. I could have also brought my Alto 312s if there had been room in the car, which I already know there is a clear difference with the Evoxes and we could have had others to maybe reduce the monoculture of the RCFs, because as good as they are, a lot of people can't afford them.

But it is a lot of stuff and it would have taken @Phil Starr a lot more time to set up, and he was also running a cab build in the other room!

 

And I do wish I bought a proper non compressing audio recorder too, but too much stuff and too little time, and when it comes down to 'do we remember the audio recorder or do we remember the biscoff cake', no one is going to thank you for the audio recorder!

[Chienmortbb]

2 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

And I do wish I bought a proper non compressing audio recorder too, but too much stuff and too little time, and when it comes down to 'do we remember the audio recorder or do we remember the biscoff cake', no one is going to thank you for the audio recorder!

I had a Zoom Q4N-4K at the bash but I left the Micro SD Card in my PC at home DOH!

[Woodinblack]

17 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

I had a Zoom Q4N-4K at the bash but I left the Micro SD Card in my PC at home DOH!

 

I have a Zoom Q2 that I was going to bring, but I broke the connector the other day!

[Richard R]

6 hours ago, Chienmortbb said:

I had a Zoom Q4N-4K at the bash but I left the Micro SD Card in my PC at home DOH!

 

6 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

 

I have a Zoom Q2 that I was going to bring, but I broke the connector the other day!

 

I have a Zoom H4n Pro in bits with the outer case parts soaking in methanol to remove some very sticky gunk. 

 

[Chienmortbb]

Just now, Richard R said:

methanol to remove some very sticky gunk. 

We won't ask and will try not to imagine.