Speakon question

[agedhorse]

  On 29/10/2024 at 20:07, deepbass5 said:

Try Hifi cables Richer sounds were good but Halfords also do 2.5 mm and various other types, they are twin cables so they don't have a thick outer sleeve and fit into the socket terminal easy. Also oxygen free if you are into that belief for Hi-fi quality.

 

 

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Beware that the insulation on this unjacketed on that type of cable is very vulnerable to damage, both from stage hazards as well as where the top of the strain relief chuck meets the wire. The strain reliefs on these plugs are designed specifically for round jacketed wire to avoid pinching and stress points. This won't hold up for very long in pro applications, whereas proper cable can hold up for a couple of decades.

[deepbass5]

I have been using these for about 15 years now, very tough outer sheath, although just for Bass amp to speaker  connections 1 metre length. These are actually 4mm cores, but as above i would be reluctant to have long ones made up for PA use and run them round the stage. 

[Alec]

  On 29/10/2024 at 11:30, Stub Mandrel said:

 

I do wish my phone would let me open pdfs...

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Er, Adobe Acrobat Reader, amongst many options...

 

  On 29/10/2024 at 20:07, deepbass5 said:

Try Hifi cables Richer sounds were good but Halfords also do 2.5 mm and various other types, they are twin cables so they don't have a thick outer sleeve and fit into the socket terminal easy. Also oxygen free if you are into that belief for Hi-fi quality.

 

 

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I shudder just looking at that cable.  Yes, it'll work, but it's really not the right tool for the job.

 

While a typical amp-speaker cable like this won't be subject to abuse, it's tempting fate not to have something more robust.  Round profile double insulated speaker cable is exactly what the strain relief in a Speakon plug is designed to grip.  Your cable will be much less resilient in the face of one strong yank.

 

And then there's those horrible ancient Speakon plugs with that nast twist ring.  The more recent versions with the metal latch are so much easier to use.  And, more significantly are easy to disassemble if you need to.  Given that your cable is at risk from an incident, good luck on working out how to disassemble the plug to fix it in an emergency - when I was unfortunate enough to have to do this years ago, it took me forever and much swearing.

[Chienmortbb]

  On 30/10/2024 at 23:45, Alec said:

 

Er, Adobe Acrobat Reader, amongst many options...

 

 

I shudder just looking at that cable.  Yes, it'll work, but it's really not the right tool for the job.

 

While a typical amp-speaker cable like this won't be subject to abuse, it's tempting fate not to have something more robust.  Round profile double insulated speaker cable is exactly what the strain relief in a Speakon plug is designed to grip.  Your cable will be much less resilient in the face of one strong yank.

 

And then there's those horrible ancient Speakon plugs with that nast twist ring.  The more recent versions with the metal latch are so much easier to use.  And, more significantly are easy to disassemble if you need to.  Given that your cable is at risk from an incident, good luck on working out how to disassemble the plug to fix it in an emergency - when I was unfortunate enough to have to do this years ago, it took me forever and much swearing.

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There is a knack of disassembling those older 2way speakONs but it does involve a lot of swearing and a good chance of you puncturing part of your hand!
 

In fairness the design was good in that is effectively a one piece construction but in reality it was a PITA to assemble and reuse. 
 

None of the speakON designs are perfect and IMHO the current ones are a real pain. You need a Torx driver and the latch is not as easy as the older series. You should also use a Torque driver tighten both the cable screws and housing assembly but I wonder how many DIY ears will even read the assembly instructions?
 

If you prefer the older designs, Neutrik’s REAN  branded ones are familiar and only need a Pozi (PZ) driver to assemble. They are, however, only specified at a minimum of 1000  insertions rather than the 5000 of the Neutrik branded ones. 
 

 

Edited October 31, 2024 by Chienmortbb

[Stub Mandrel]

  On 30/10/2024 at 23:45, Alec said:

Er, Adobe Acrobat Reader, amongst many options...

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Yes... but my phone has decided that three utterly irrelevant apps are the only ones it will offer, despite Word and Acrobat being on my phone... and if I try to set different default apps tp PDFs it will only let me choose from a tiny selection.

[agedhorse]

  On 31/10/2024 at 07:45, Chienmortbb said:

There is a knack of disassembling those older 2way speakONs but it does involve a lot of swearing and a good chance of you puncturing part of your hand!
 

In fairness the design was good in that is effectively a one piece construction but in reality it was a PITA to assemble and reuse. 
 

None of the speakON designs are perfect and IMHO the current ones are a real pain. You need a Torx driver and the latch is not as easy as the older series. You should also use a Torque driver tighten both the cable screws and housing assembly but I wonder how many DIY ears will even read the assembly instructions?
 

If you prefer the older designs, Neutrik’s REAN  branded ones are familiar and only need a Pozi (PZ) driver to assemble. They are, however, only specified at a minimum of 1000  insertions rather than the 5000 of the Neutrik branded ones. 
 

 

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OEM specs are 5000 mating cycles

[Chienmortbb]

  On 01/11/2024 at 02:05, agedhorse said:

5000 mating cycles

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I was thinking jacks. I have left my error unedited so your post still makes sense. 

[agedhorse]

  On 02/11/2024 at 11:00, Chienmortbb said:

I was thinking jacks. I have left my error unedited so your post still makes sense. 

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Both plugs and jacks are internally specified for ~5000 mating cycles, OEMs would's use them if it was only 1000 (even if the retail paperwork says so)

 

Retail facing paperwork and specifications aren't what OEM's use, and we have access to better data than that. 

[dclaassen]

whatever happened to blindly rootling around in your cable bag and using the first 1/4" one you lay your hands on? Worked for grandpa.....

[Jack]

I know you're joking but the actual answer is because bass amps went from 50W to 1200W.

 

Not that 1/4" is a good idea at any power, but I digress.

Edited November 4, 2024 by Jack

[Chienmortbb]

  On 04/11/2024 at 13:33, Jack said:

Not that 1/4" is a good idea at any power, but I digress.

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A good idea if you want to blow your amp.

[agedhorse]

  On 04/11/2024 at 13:33, Jack said:

I know you're joking but the actual answer is because bass amps went from 50W to 1200W.

 

Not that 1/4" is a good idea at any power, but I digress.

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And now, many amps use bridged configurations (often internally).

[deepbass5]

  On 04/11/2024 at 13:45, Chienmortbb said:

A good idea if you want to blow your amp.

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Having run the PA in our band for 30 years as well as the bass gear, the number of jack leads I had noticed in the wire bag that had dinks and scratched up barrels it made me wonder how you ever get a decent connection, along side dirt and grease from handling, not to mention the dust sucked into amps by the fan that collects in the female jack sockets. This alone convinced me early on to go to Speakon's as soon as I could. The design based on current ratings and safety aspect were a given, but we gained far more.

[SuperSeagull]

  On 04/11/2024 at 13:33, Jack said:

I know you're joking but the actual answer is because bass amps went from 50W to 1200W.

 

Not that 1/4" is a good idea at any power, but I digress.

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Although 1/4" is the only speaker out on my Elf. I guess that is a space compromise. 

[agedhorse]

  On 08/11/2024 at 16:10, SuperSeagull said:

Although 1/4" is the only speaker out on my Elf. I guess that is a space compromise. 

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It may not be a bridged output either, which helps by eliminating some particular failure modes.

[SuperSeagull]

  On 08/11/2024 at 21:44, agedhorse said:

It may not be a bridged output either, which helps by eliminating some particular failure modes.

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No idea what that means 😄 but it sounds a good thing. 

[Jack]

  On 09/11/2024 at 08:27, SuperSeagull said:

No idea what that means 😄 but it sounds a good thing. 

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A lot of class D heads actually use two separate ampliers "bridged" together to get double the voltage swing on the output. A lot of big old school pa amps could do this if you wanted to put all your eggs in one basket rather than running stereo. This is a great way to get extra power out of a small amp and it's usually invisible to the user, up until you do something like use a speaker level di box or run a 1/4" cable through the socket when the amp is turned on and short the two amp modules together. 

 

I had a qsc plx 1602 for a long time. If I had an 8ohm cabinet I could either use one of the two amps to give the cabinet 300W, or I could bridge both halves together for 1100W. Some small class D bass heads just have two smaller amps permanently bridged with no user choice. I don't really know why to be honest, @agedhorse? I guess it's easier or cheaper than just having one big amp module somehow. 

 

Edited November 9, 2024 by Jack

[itu]

  On 09/11/2024 at 10:24, Jack said:

I had a qsc plx 1602 for a long time. If I had an 8ohm cabinet I could either use one of the two amps to give the cabinet 300W, or I could bridge both halves together for 1100W.

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To remind you about power and loudness, to get a very audible 10 dB more, a 300 W amp should be replaced with a 3 kW amp. Doubling that 300 W twice (300 - 600 - 1200 W) you get around 5 - 6 dB more. Not bad at all, but the same is available with two similar cabinets.

[Jack]

  On 09/11/2024 at 10:50, itu said:

To remind you about power and loudness, to get a very audible 10 dB more, a 300 W amp should be replaced with a 3 kW amp. Doubling that 300 W twice (300 - 600 - 1200 W) you get around 5 - 6 dB more. Not bad at all, but the same is available with two similar cabinets.

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Indeed. Not really sure what you're getting at but if your point is "bridging isn't worth it" then again I wonder why a lot of micro heads do just that. I guess it's because that's how the amp modules come from the manufacturers, but then, why do they do it? 

 

I didn't ever feel the need to bridge the pa power amp I used. The cabs that need a lot of help getting loud can't usually handle the power, I'd have loved to have seen 1kW+ into something like a TE 1x8". For ten seconds. Conversely the cabs that can handle the power like a 4x12" or an 8x10" have enough sensitivity that they don't need a lot of power to get loud. So either way it seems useless. 

 

It's almost like professional, touring grade, rack mount pa amps weren't designed for weekend warrior bassists.

[itu]

  On 09/11/2024 at 11:00, Jack said:

Not really sure what you're getting at but if your point is "bridging isn't worth it"...

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No. I mean that the wattage numbers give us a slightly faulty view to loudness. I do like headroom. To push 10 dB more out of my system would require a very powerful amp, two cabs, or some heavy processing, like compressing. Or just push the current system much harder, and use a pair of good earplugs - which is the wrong way.

 

Volume war should be handled with lowering overall volume. This usually means discussion with others. Sometimes also someone is required who can use the mixer board.

[agedhorse]

Bridging (internally) on class D amps is done for very different reasons. It allows reactive energy stored in the electro magnetic field of the voice coil moving within the motor to be transferred to the the opposing rail(s) of the power supply rather than to be dissipated as heat. This improved efficiency. 

[Jack]

  On 10/11/2024 at 05:52, agedhorse said:

Bridging (internally) on class D amps is done for very different reasons. It allows reactive energy stored in the electro magnetic field of the voice coil moving within the motor to be transferred to the the opposing rail(s) of the power supply rather than to be dissipated as heat. This improved efficiency. 

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Oh, obviously. 🤥

 

[agedhorse]

  On 10/11/2024 at 10:55, Jack said:

Oh, obviously. 🤥

 

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This particular mechanism doesn’t apply to class AB/G/H amps, so the increase in efficiency doesn’t apply for these types. 

[tauzero]

  On 10/11/2024 at 05:52, agedhorse said:

Bridging (internally) on class D amps is done for very different reasons. It allows reactive energy stored in the electro magnetic field of the voice coil moving within the motor to be transferred to the the opposing rail(s) of the power supply rather than to be dissipated as heat. This improved efficiency. 

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Is that done by using two class D modules in opposite phase to each other (I feel that was a trick that Ashdown may have missed out on with the Superfly and Superduperfly)?

[agedhorse]

  On 10/11/2024 at 15:01, tauzero said:

 

Is that done by using two class D modules in opposite phase to each other (I feel that was a trick that Ashdown may have missed out on with the Superfly and Superduperfly)?

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Generally, no. The output stage is configured as either 1/2-bridge or full bridge depending on the power supply and the design of the power amp.