"Dirty" sounding pickups.

[fretmeister]

As we know - things like EMGs are super clean and very well potted so the signal is pure and there's no microphony happening. They are advertised for those super clean and zero hum qualities.

 

But what about the other end? What pickups seem to be inherently dirty sounding - but ideally still without hum? Not just a set of vintage accurate pickups, but is there something made to be dirty?

 

Any ideas?

[bloke_zero]

Hmm, good question - and so subjective!

 

I'm going to say DiMarzio Model P? I have some EMG active P and know what you mean by clean. I don't have model P's, but I have some PAF ones which are supposed to be pretty consistent with the modern Model P. Interestingly they are ceramic.

 

Looking forward to other replies!

[fretmeister]

I might send an email or two to some pickup makers and ask.

[ezbass]

The Nordstrand Big Singles would grind nicely, when digging in. Not noiseless of course, but not horribly noisy, I imagine the Big Splits might do the same and they should be humbucking.

[NancyJohnson]

Gadzooks!  Here we go.

 

IME (quite a bit), there's no such thing as dirty sounding units, per se; sure there are pickups that have their own individual characteristics (Rickenbacker units, Mudbuckers and - by default rather than design - vintage/60s Thunderbird units, which were lap steel surplus units) and those that arguably have a hotter output, but by and large in reality they're all pretty much the same.  If you're looking for dirt, best practice is to add something into your signal chain!

[bloke_zero]

7 minutes ago, NancyJohnson said:

lap steel surplus units

I have a '38 Rickenbacher lapsteel that I inherited (they changed the name to be less german after the war). Hand wound around a massive magnet. It does sound, er, warm and I suppose dirty - it's the same basic design as the rickenbacker horseshoe bass pickup, but I've never played a ric bass.

[Supernaut]

The Entwistle Neodymium pickups jump to mind. 
 

Dimarzio DP127 is pretty high output. 

[neepheid]

G&L MFD

 

[BigRedX]

1 hour ago, NancyJohnson said:

Gadzooks!  Here we go.

 

IME (quite a bit), there's no such thing as dirty sounding units, per se; sure there are pickups that have their own individual characteristics (Rickenbacker units, Mudbuckers and - by default rather than design - vintage/60s Thunderbird units, which were lap steel surplus units) and those that arguably have a hotter output, but by and large in reality they're all pretty much the same.  If you're looking for dirt, best practice is to add something into your signal chain!

 

The dirt is being produced by high output pickups overloading/overdriving something further down the signal chain.

 

IME most overwound pickups tend to sacrifice other more important tonal elements in their efforts to be as "loud" as possible. Personally I'd rather turn the gain up a bit more else where in my signal path.

[fretmeister]

I'm not talking about high output driving later things - just if there is design possible to be inherently dirty.

 

Taking an opposite design culture of EMGs - instead of making super clean, try to encourage the flaws of "warm" sounding pickups.

[bloke_zero]

Overwound would be a good example - https://www.fralinpickups.com/2019/10/24/overwinding-and-underwinding-a-pickup/ hotter, but also 'thicker'

[NancyJohnson]

1 hour ago, fretmeister said:

I'm not talking about high output driving later things - just if there is design possible to be inherently dirty.

 

Taking an opposite design culture of EMGs - instead of making super clean, try to encourage the flaws of "warm" sounding pickups.

 

As the components of any pickup are pretty much magnets, copper wire and (if potted) wax, the only variants are going to be under/overwinding or different magnetic materials (iron/neodymium).  Fundamentally the core materials/process is in general, more or less the same.

 

If you consider this, then the fundamentals of pickup design/manufacturing are pretty much set in stone; I owned a Rickenbacker 400* for a while, the quintessential Rick tone was there, but I'd wager that part of this tone was to do with caps and pots along with my desire/belief to sound Rickenbackeresque.  It was arguably cheaper to achieve this by integrating outboard processing rather than swapping pickups every five minutes!

 

I simply don't buy into the claims that pickups sound inherently different from each other, irrespective of claims otherwise. I know what I want to sound like and can achieve that (more or less) off a BDDI.

 

 

[itu]

2 hours ago, NancyJohnson said:

As the components of any pickup are pretty much magnets, copper wire and (if potted) wax, the only variants are going to be under/overwinding or different magnetic materials (iron/neodymium).

One point:

Magnetic material does not affect the sound nearly as much as the field does. Remember: Nd can be weaker than AlNiCo.

 

Some pickup materials may affect magnetic field a little, but this is usually a minor detail.

 

Another point:

The geometry of the pickup has some effect on the inductance.

 

One more detail is how the pickup is constructed, like is a J a stacked humbucker, or quadrocoil, or a simple singlecoil, or...

[NancyJohnson]

34 minutes ago, itu said:

One point:

Magnetic material does not affect the sound nearly as much as the field does. Remember: Nd can be weaker than AlNiCo.

 

Some pickup materials may affect magnetic field a little, but this is usually a minor detail.

 

Another point:

The geometry of the pickup has some effect on the inductance.

 

One more detail is how the pickup is constructed, like is a J a stacked humbucker, or quadrocoil, or a simple singlecoil, or...

 

My fundamental issue with every facet of replacement parts (be it pickups or bridges or machines or, or, or) is that they're merely one element in a chain of events that involves the transference of the sound emanating from your fingertips through to the air that hits your eardrum.

 

I would wager that pretty much any (working) bass, that's been similarly set up and is playable, would be more or less unrecognisable tonally from another, be it an old Russian monstrosity through to a £10k Fodera.  Seriously.

 

We've proven this already.

[Woodinblack]

8 hours ago, fretmeister said:

Taking an opposite design culture of EMGs - instead of making super clean, try to encourage the flaws of "warm" sounding pickups.

 

As previously mentioned, a pickup can't be dirty as such, it can just be coloured in sound. EMGs are very clean and hifi because they aren't wound that much and the magnets aren't strong, so they don't intefere with the string much or the signal. As a result they are very weak, but that is ok as they have preamps in the pickup to boost that weak signal. So they sound strong and hifi.

At the other end of the scale, you get like the dimarzio super distortions, were designed to have such a high output that they distort your gain circuit and thus come up wtih a dirty sound - its the amp that makes the dirt there.

As a result of a lot of winding and a strong magnetic field the eq is very coloured, so they sound quite distinctive

 

6 hours ago, NancyJohnson said:

I simply don't buy into the claims that pickups sound inherently different from each other, irrespective of claims otherwise. I know what I want to sound like and can achieve that (more or less) off a BDDI.

 

Pickups do sound inherently different to each other. The eq curve, level and impedance of a pickup depends on its magnetic strength, the size and amount of wiring and the style of wiring, so plugged into a non ideal amplifier, as they all all, they will sound different. Obviously any EQ that a pickup has, you could correct for afterwards so it is possible to make them sound similar (for a single coil) although for multicoils on the same string (humbucker or two pickups at the same time) probably never the same.

 

[bloke_zero]

There is also a lot in magnet configuration e.g. the MFD has a ceramic bar under the pole pieces that, to my ears, increases the output, but also the dynamics and definition. Or, to take another Leo Fender design - the dual pole pieces under the each string with a p-pickup were specifically there to diffuse the bass response and attack from the earlier 'telebass' single pole per string version because that was apparently blowing speakers!

[JJMotown]

Picked up a £10 P bass recently, would be rude not to at that price. Pickups were a little thin sounding, put some neodymium magnets under the pickups, now they drive my speakers, easily as hot as SD quarter pounds in my other bass.