warwickhunt Posted September 4, 2007 Author Share Posted September 4, 2007 [quote name='JPJ' post='55023' date='Sep 3 2007, 10:57 PM']whoopee, count me in, I'll get the kettle on again![/quote] See if WoT has a spare couple of hours free, as a poster on TB has suggested trying different pre's through alternate power sections This could get interesting, shame we can't isolate WoT's power supply hum on the GB (stick it another room )! Damn, you can tell 2 out of 3 don't have enough band work on at the minute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 [quote name='warwickhunt' post='55088' date='Sep 4 2007, 06:57 AM']See if WoT has a spare couple of hours free, as a poster on TB has suggested trying different pre's through alternate power sections This could get interesting, shame we can't isolate WoT's power supply hum on the GB (stick it another room )! Damn, you can tell 2 out of 3 don't have enough band work on at the minute.[/quote] I'm there for the next round... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassbloke Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 [quote name='wateroftyne' post='54994' date='Sep 3 2007, 10:06 PM']Reet... my turn! Warwickhunt kindly dropped by our dep drummer audition with his Thunderfunk and mysterious TecAmp Black Cat in tow. I left my usual amp & pre in the case (AI Focus & EBS Microbass II), plugged my 70s flat-strung P into the Black cat into my Schroeder 21012L, flattened the EQ & fired it up. YOWZA! Instant WoT-friendly tone! Round, warm and distinct. Just how I like it. WH mentioned that he thought the EQ doesn't do much. I reckon TecAmp have got it spot on.. who needs +-20db, anyway? This is more subtle.. all I need. As it happens, I left it flat anyway and it sounded mint... very much like my AI/EBS, in fact - a tone I love. Then I swapped to the Thunderfunk & fired it up. Hmmm. I realise I'm in a party of one here, but... Thunderfunks don't do it for me. It has a 'bark' about it that doesn't suit my style. It'll probably be great with roundounds, but I'm too old-skool for that. So, back to the Black Cat... much better. Set'n'forget. I'm determined to sort out my current 'humming Genz' issue (see my thread elsewhere), but if I wasn't, I reckon be on the lookout for another TecAmp... Oh, aye... the Black Cat has a totally bling illuminated neon stripe along the bottom. What's there not to like??[/quote] Try the TVM600 - 700 Watts into 2 Ohms Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warwickhunt Posted September 4, 2007 Author Share Posted September 4, 2007 (edited) Right, well we'll have to firm up where and when because if WoT is joining in "I think we need a bigger boat" By my reckoning we will have: 1 x Thunderfunk head 1 x Tech Blackcat head 1 x Ashdown Superfly 1 x H&K Bassbase 250 1 x SWR 750x head 1 x Genz Benz 750 1 x Acoustic Image 1 x Tech Neo 6x10 1 x SWR Goliath 4x10 1 x SWR Son of Bertha 1x15 2 x Schroeder 21012 1 x JPJ self-build 1x12 Apart from the SABBDI, EBS & BBE preamp pedals is there anything that I missed? Edited September 5, 2007 by warwickhunt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPJ Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 [quote name='warwickhunt' post='55569' date='Sep 4 2007, 09:53 PM']Right, well we'll have to firm up where and when because if WoT is joining in "I think we need a bigger boat" By my reckoning we will have: 1 x Thunderfunk head 1 x Tech Blackcat head 1 x Ashdown Superfly 1 x H&K Bassbase 250 1 x SWR 750x head 1 x Genz Benz 750 1 x Acoustic Image 1 x Tech Neo 6x10 1 x SWR Goliath 4x10 1 x SWR Son of Bertha 1x15 2 x Schroeder 21012 1 x JPJ self-build 1x12 Apart from the SABBDI, EBS & BBE preamp pedals is there anything that I missed?[/quote] If I can blag a crane and a forty foot artic, I'll bring my 'vintage' Hiwatt 4x12 along as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 ..and: 1 x EBS Microbass II Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichBowman Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 Sounds like you guys are having all the fun! Any Toon supporters amongst you folks (sorry to wander off topic...)? Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warwickhunt Posted September 5, 2007 Author Share Posted September 5, 2007 [quote name='RichBowman' post='55988' date='Sep 5 2007, 03:18 PM']Sounds like you guys are having all the fun! Any Toon supporters amongst you folks (sorry to wander off topic...)? Rich[/quote] Don't have time for footie when you've got this much gear to play with I/we appreciate all of the other input from fellow BCers and there is a semi-serious side to all of this b*ggering about. Both WoT and I are having tone tantrums (less so JPJ) and though we aren't talking Tom Bowlus territory here it will be illuminating if we can get this sorted in the next couple of weeks. If the other lads are up for this I would genuinely like each of us to have the opportunity to play our main bass through each of the amps and each of the cabs. My head begins to hurt when I try to calculate the possible permutations when/if we start going from the pre of one amp into the power of another! I realise that we may need to have a reference bass and cab to then test a few of the pre/power options out. This will have no relevance in a practical sense as none of us is likely to be prepared to purchase and carry around any 2 of these amps/cabs. However it will lay a few demons to rest about the different ways in which amps generate the totality of their tone (ie does the power section have any relevance to the projection/SPL levels) and you never know we may learn something (unlikely I realise). I would imagine that the other guys in this 'test' would, like me, appreciate any input or thoughts on ways and means of conducting the trials. I'm sure many of them will be obvious but you may think of something that we haven't. Hence I may need to alter the heading of this thread! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 Some test tones recorded onto CD or played by laptop and an SPL meter will make all the difference when it comes to comparing rigs. If you fail to do this the best rig will always seem to be the one with the most gain. Would be interesting to choose one preamp section and one cab as your default set-up and then see how loud each power amp section can go whilst staying clean. Make sure you use a big cab to do this so you don't reach the cab's limits before the amp runs out of steam. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warwickhunt Posted September 5, 2007 Author Share Posted September 5, 2007 [quote name='alexclaber' post='56153' date='Sep 5 2007, 06:42 PM']Some test tones recorded onto CD or played by laptop and an SPL meter will make all the difference when it comes to comparing rigs. If you fail to do this the best rig will always seem to be the one with the most gain. [b]Would be interesting to choose one preamp section and one cab as your default set-up and then see how loud each power amp section can go whilst staying clean. Make sure you use a big cab to do this so you don't reach the cab's limits before the amp runs out of steam.[/b] Alex[/quote] Good idea! A reference bass, pre and cab could be a good comparison with the various power stages. The Tech cab is 2100 watts and the Schroeders are no slouches so we shall see Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 I would also consider making a digital recording of a bassline and then playing that sample through the rigs as well as playing an actual bass. This will remove playing inconsistencies from the test. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernmeister Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 This could turn out very interesting, i'm keeping my eye on this thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 Getting digital recordings and SPL whatnots would be no use to me. To be honest, I can't tell diddley squat what a bass would sound like in the 'real world' from thumping around in the house with it. As far as I'm concerned, the best rig has nowt to do with numbers or solo'd tone.. it's the one that sounds best at a gig. I'm going to have a lot of fun mucking about with the gear, though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warwickhunt Posted September 5, 2007 Author Share Posted September 5, 2007 [quote name='wateroftyne' post='56201' date='Sep 5 2007, 07:39 PM']Getting digital recordings and SPL whatnots would be no use to me. To be honest, I can't tell diddley squat what a bass would sound like in the 'real world' from thumping around in the house with it. As far as I'm concerned, the best rig has nowt to do with numbers or solo'd tone.. it's the one that sounds best at a gig. I'm going to have a lot of fun mucking about with the gear, though...[/quote] Like the man said... half of this is d*cking about (but fun), as we've all had experiences of basses/amps/cabs that sound phenomenal in isolation but just don't cut it in the band scenario. However, there is a semi-serious side for me as I want to see if I can recreate the punch (SPL) that I have had in the past from a 250w 2x10 combo that I appear to be failing to get with amplifiers delivering 500w+ and speaker arrays out-numbering/out-sizing what I used in the past. Don't say well just get what you used to have because I can't go back to busting a gut lugging heavy gear. Hence the fact that I have several posts dotted about on forums trying to ascertain if there is any difference in the way that power is generated in an amp and then delivered through a driver and the effect that this can have on SPLs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BB2000 Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 Any Bill Fitzmaurice cab owners near these lads - I'd love to see a head to head between Bill's designs and some 'o that fancy kit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 SPL is not punch - it is volume (Sound Pressure Level). What about getting a drummer and thin string along as well - or play some drum/keys/guitar tracks through a PA. Plus a wireless so you can move around the sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warwickhunt Posted September 5, 2007 Author Share Posted September 5, 2007 [quote name='bass_ferret' post='56260' date='Sep 5 2007, 10:19 PM']SPL is not punch - it is volume (Sound Pressure Level). What about getting a drummer and thin string along as well - or play some drum/keys/guitar tracks through a PA. Plus a wireless so you can move around the sound.[/quote] I'm using terms like 'SPL' and 'Punch' to get across an impression to anyone interested that what I am talking about is that 'thump' (how many untechnical/technical terms can I mix up here) that you get when a kick drum is put through a half decent PA. It may not be an exact term but I've had equipment that recreated that 'effect' even at moderate volume! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 Well dont forget that kick drum, more so when miked up, can completely shag your bass sound if you aint careful. Went to see Silverfox Nik on saturday and his bass sounded really wooley but it was not the bass - it was the kick drum that was much too loud in the mix and combined with the bass to produce a sonic clusterf***. Got the kick turned down and the bass was much much better (apart from his blown speaker ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 [quote name='warwickhunt' post='56235' date='Sep 5 2007, 08:42 PM']However, there is a semi-serious side for me as I want to see if I can recreate the punch (SPL) that I have had in the past from a 250w 2x10 combo that I appear to be failing to get with amplifiers delivering 500w+ and speaker arrays out-numbering/out-sizing what I used in the past.[/quote] Sounds to me like you've gone from a rig with more midrange and natural compression to a rig with a more open and full bottomed sound. Punch is most definitely not SPL. If a 250W 2x10" combo did it for you in the past then it can again. But instead of a combo, get a lightweight 2x10" cab and a lightweight head. Add a compressor pedal if need be. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 [quote name='warwickhunt' post='56264' date='Sep 5 2007, 10:32 PM']I'm using terms like 'SPL' and 'Punch' to get across an impression to anyone interested that what I am talking about is that 'thump' (how many untechnical/technical terms can I mix up here) that you get when a kick drum is put through a half decent PA. It may not be an exact term but I've had equipment that recreated that 'effect' even at moderate volume![/quote] Yep, that's definitely a compressed bass guitar sound. Also not much output in the true lows, so something that's rolling off heavily below about 70Hz - i.e. a typical old 2x10" combo. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 And also the increased distortion from speakers being driven hard adds overtones that tend to be heard as 'punch'. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warwickhunt Posted September 6, 2007 Author Share Posted September 6, 2007 [quote name='alexclaber' post='56279' date='Sep 5 2007, 11:16 PM']Sounds to me like you've gone from a rig with more midrange and natural compression to a rig with a more open and full bottomed sound. Punch is most definitely not SPL. If a 250W 2x10" combo did it for you in the past then it can again. But instead of a combo, get a lightweight 2x10" cab and a lightweight head. Add a compressor pedal if need be. Alex[/quote] Just recently I 'had' a Tech Soundsystems 4 ohm 2x10 cab and a MB SA450 & LMKII, none of which cut the mustard. I've never lacked output or volume from my recent rigs and TBH the last thing I would ever have said my H&K combos had was a mid bias. Though I accept what you say about frequency roll-off etc. I can appreciate that to some, my use of terms like SPL/punch/thump are non-specific and actually apply to different measures or applications but I'm trying to put across an impression of what I'm trying to achieve/recreate. Even at low volumes my combos added authority to each note without being nasally or boxy and as you turned up the wick they just got bigger. The ported combos had a valve in the preamp, were structurally braced and made from marine ply (approx 50kg per combo if I remember correctly) whilst each one was loaded with a pair of 250w Celestions. I've accepted that the design and engineering of the combos gave them a unique tone (not unique as in magical or special but unique in the way that an Ampeg combo doesn't sound like a Fender or a Trace) that I can't recreate 'exactly' but these experiments will help me decide whether I can get closer to that tone or if I have some jaded rose tinted view of the tone I used to have. After all I have the amp section out of one of those combos (recently repaired at a cost) if I can't even get close with the combined equipment that we have then I'm likely to disappear up my own ar*e trying to achieve this and I'll admit I need to move on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BB2000 Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 [quote name='warwickhunt' post='56337' date='Sep 6 2007, 08:16 AM']I'm likely to disappear up my own ar*e trying to achieve this[/quote] I'll have two front row tickets please ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ba55me15ter Posted September 7, 2007 Share Posted September 7, 2007 Hi chaps, I could be interested in joining you for a gear sesh! Gear I could bring: MB SA450 TE MkV AH250 C-Audio 1250 watt power amp ADA (remember them?) 1x15 + 2x10 My wee JBL Eon15 monitor PJB Briefcase Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warwickhunt Posted September 7, 2007 Author Share Posted September 7, 2007 [quote name='Ba55me15ter' post='56950' date='Sep 7 2007, 01:18 PM']Hi chaps, I could be interested in joining you for a gear sesh! Gear I could bring: MB SA450 TE MkV AH250 C-Audio 1250 watt power amp ADA (remember them?) 1x15 + 2x10 My wee JBL Eon15 monitor PJB Briefcase[/quote] Oh me oh my I can see a full scale bash developing at this rate! As for tickets for my disappearing act they could be expensive as it's a once in a life-time show! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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