Dealing with feedback with an uncompromising drummer

[geoham]

I play in a pub-band, and also run sound - mostly from the stage which obviously isn't ideal, but what can you do in a pub when playing for beer money?

We've no amps on stage, the whole band is also using IEMs except one member who uses a floor monitor. All generally works well is larger pubs, but I am really struggling with feedback in smaller places. You know type of place.... you can feel the crash cymbal whooshing past your ear and the singer is almost sitting on bass drum!

 

Ultimately, our drummer is very loud. He's a hard-hitter, and it seems his kit is designed to be loud - large shells, cymbals etc. By the time I get a good balance between drums, guitar, bass and keys - I need to really crank the vocals meaning feedback if the vocalist even slightly moves the mic. The alternative is a drum-heavy mix - which is my go-to at the moment. 

 

In the past I've suggested that the drummer use a smaller kit (he has a few), or perhaps use a lighter hand. It didn't go down well. Basically he'd rather not play than compromise his playing or equipment choice. He's a very good drummer, and a long time friend of two band mates - so replacing him isn't an option.

 

I've got a feedback destroyer on our main outputs, which has helped. I know it's not ideal, but the alternative of ringing out feedback in a pub full of punters when we've got an hour from unloading the van the set starting isn't really feasible.

 

Do any of you have any advice mixing around a loud drummer, in particular eliminating vocal feedback in tight spaces?

[Mudpup]

Get a drum screen. We use one and it works really well.

 

Or a new drummer of course 😁 

Edited 22 hours ago by Mudpup

[geoham]

2 minutes ago, Mudpup said:

Get a drum screen. We use one and it works really well.

 

Or a new drummer of course 😁 

We've joked about this - but don't they take up quite a lot of floor space?

[Mudpup]

1 minute ago, geoham said:

We've joked about this - but don't they take up quite a lot of floor space?

Nope, it's the same size as the kit. You lose the gap under the cymbals but what do you use that for anyway?

[geoham]

2 minutes ago, Mudpup said:

Nope, it's the same size as the kit. You lose the gap under the cymbals but what do you use that for anyway?

That's definitely slimmer than I was expecting. Do you know the make & model by chance?

[Mudpup]

Plan B would be stop playing the smaller pubs. That's what we did. Same issue with the drummer - big hitter and a loud kit. He tried playing with rods but it really didn't work for any of us. Robbed the power out of the band and drummer was grumpy about it. He also had a smaller kit but liked using the big stuff. I suppose it's like asking you to play through a 50 watt combo and below talking volume for him.

[Mudpup]

1 minute ago, geoham said:

That's definitely slimmer than I was expecting. Do you know the make & model by chance?

No idea sorry. Drummist turned up with it one day. It's bloody heavy.

[geoham]

Just now, Mudpup said:

Plan B would be stop playing the smaller pubs. That's what we did. Same issue with the drummer - big hitter and a loud kit. He tried playing with rods but it really didn't work for any of us. Robbed the power out of the band and drummer was grumpy about it. He also had a smaller kit but liked using the big stuff. I suppose it's like asking you to play through a 50 watt combo and below talking volume for him.

A very good point. I'd love to, but that's a whole other conversation...

 

One pub in particular which I can't stand is owned by our singer's neighbour. It's tiny and they've got no business having more than an acoustic duo playing really. But our singer is a bit of a local celebrity, and the bar does well when we play - so it's going to be a mainstay for the gig for the foreseeable unfortunately.

 

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

A drum screen is overkill for a pub gig and will look ridiculous if the setup is anything like the small pubs I've played in. The drummer needs to recognise that he is part of a band, and what the band sounds like as a whole is more important than his fragile ego.

 

Edited 21 hours ago by Jean-Luc Pickguard

[oldslapper]

Not going to help you by the sounds of it, but a good drummer is able to play at any volume without “compromising their style or whatever it means”. You could suggest using rods instead of sticks. 

I find these type of band mates frustrating. But it sounds like you want to keep him onside. Good luck. 

[Steve Browning]

3 minutes ago, Jean-Luc Pickguard said:

A drum screen is overkill for a pub gig and will look ridiculous if the setup is any like the small pubs I've played in. The drummer needs to recognise that he is part of a band, and what the band sounds like as a whole is more important than his fragile ego.

This is the truth of it. If the 50 watt combo was a sensible choice then I'd use it. 

 

A drummer is immune from the consequences of his gear choices because his kit is a finite size.

 

Maybe he could ditch the floor toms in a small pub. Give him some real world consequences. 

[SimonK]

18 minutes ago, Jean-Luc Pickguard said:

A drum screen is overkill for a pub gig and will look ridiculous if the setup is any like the small pubs I've played in. The drummer needs to recognise that he is part of a band, and what the band sounds like as a whole is more important than his fragile ego.

 

I'd second a drum screen - we've used one for years and it just become part of the set up. If life is about compromise, and a drummer won't/can't play quieter, this is one step to take. You can also rig up a curtain or something behind the drummer to stop reflections off the back wall.

 

Thomann does some cheapish screens - although we rigged up an additional floor clamp to help support it. You also end up ripping the flexible hinges between the segments pretty quickly, but that's not the end of the world as you can fix them with clear duct tape.

Edited 21 hours ago by SimonK

[geoham]

8 minutes ago, Jean-Luc Pickguard said:

A drum screen is overkill for a pub gig and will look ridiculous if the setup is any like the small pubs I've played in. The drummer needs to recognise that he is part of a band, and what the band sounds like as a whole is more important than his fragile ego.

 

You're probably right on the drum screen. The guy can play quietly, he does so in his much more serious folk originals band, where he also uses a smaller kit. I think he sees our rock/pop covers band as an escape from this.

 

 

4 minutes ago, oldslapper said:

Not going to help you by the sounds of it, but a good drummer is able to play at any volume without “compromising their style or whatever it means”. You could suggest using rods instead of sticks. 

I find these type of band mates frustrating. But it sounds like you want to keep him onside. Good luck. 

 

I'm frustrated for sure, but we do want to keep him on side. To be fair, he's a good bandmate overall. He learns all the material properly and plays it with enthusiasm. He shows up on time and stays sober a gigs. As bassist, I feel I can lock in with him really well. Almost the perfect drummer!

We had other drummers before and it hasn't always been the case. 

[Dan Dare]

3 minutes ago, oldslapper said:

a good drummer is able to play at any volume without “compromising their style or whatever it means”. You could suggest using rods instead of sticks. 

 

This, although I'd amend it to "a good musician is able to play at any volume, etc". It doesn't apply just to drummers. In my experience, rods do not produce a good drum sound - a bit limp and unfocussed - but lighter sticks are certainly an option. If the drummer already has a small, light kit, what's his problem with using it? I take smaller backline to compact venues without making a fuss. Sounds as if the drummer only thinks of numero uno.

 

If you're in a band with three pals and you're the odd one out, it doesn't sound a good place to be. I appreciate you can't replace the drummer. In your shoes, I'd be telling the rest of the band I don't want to play the small venues any longer because of the problem. Let them worry about finding another decent bass player/sound man. They aren't as common as one might think.

[geoham]

14 minutes ago, Dan Dare said:

 

This, although I'd amend it to "a good musician is able to play at any volume, etc". It doesn't apply just to drummers. In my experience, rods do not produce a good drum sound - a bit limp and unfocussed - but lighter sticks are certainly an option. If the drummer already has a small, light kit, what's his problem with using it? I take smaller backline to compact venues without making a fuss. Sounds as if the drummer only thinks of numero uno.

 

If you're in a band with three pals and you're the odd one out, it doesn't sound a good place to be. I appreciate you can't replace the drummer. In your shoes, I'd be telling the rest of the band I don't want to play the small venues any longer because of the problem. Let them worry about finding another decent bass player/sound man. They aren't as common as one might think.

 

The thought has crossed my mind... especially when comments seem to suggest that root cause is poor mixing rather than a pair of loud speakers barely 4 feet from a cranked vocal mic being pointed in all directions. Just turn down the gain and tweak the EQ. Easy. Until I hand over the iPad to someone else obviously!

Edited 21 hours ago by geoham

[tauzero]

Are the drums in the FOH mix or just the IEMs?

[geoham]

4 minutes ago, tauzero said:

Are the drums in the FOH mix or just the IEMs?

Mostly in the IEMs. I'll have a little kick going to FOH, but never any more than this in small venues.

[chris_b]

You say this guy is a "very good drummer", but he isn't because he's not playing with the rest of the band, he playing against you. In your band that makes him a "very bad drummer". 

 

So, if I've got this right, you can't fire the drummer, he plays too loud and won't reduce his volume, he won't use a smaller kit and refuses to play with the rest of the guys as part of a band and would rather not play than make any compromises.

 

My first thought is to suggest a drum screen. If that isn't an option I would tell him on the small gigs you're going to use a dep drummer who will play as part of the band and not spoil the gig by being a selfish ****.

[Lozz196]

Yep, to me this is the sound of someone who is able to play their instrument well but isn`t a good band member. 

[BassAdder60]

Been there, some vocal mikes are terrible for feedback especially with female singers who lack power 

 

There are a few around that seem to be better without being very expensive. Worth a try and a decent PA rig helps as I found the low cost Alto etc are hard to get clarity out of unless cranked and then they feedback ! 
 

Most bands I’ve been in have heavy hitting drummers and it’s very difficult to balance this in a small pub etc 

Edited 20 hours ago by BassAdder60

[geoham]

4 minutes ago, chris_b said:

You say this guy is a "very good drummer", but he isn't because he's not playing with the rest of the band, he playing against you. In your band that makes him a "very bad drummer". 

 

So, if I've got this right, you can't fire the drummer, he plays too loud and won't reduce his volume, he won't use a smaller kit and refuses to play with the rest of the guys as part of a band and would rather not play than make any compromises.

 

My first thought is to suggest a drum screen. If that isn't an option I would tell him on the small gigs you're going to use a dep drummer who will play as part of the band and not spoil the gig by being a selfish ****.

 

Harsh... but probably fair!

[geoham]

Just now, BassAdder60 said:

Been there, some vocal mikes are terrible for feedback especially with female singers who lack power 

 

There are a few around that seem to be better without being very expensive. Worth a try and a decent PA rig helps as I found the low cost Alto etc are hard to get clarity out of unless cranked and then they feedback ! 

The mic in question is an SM58. I know it's the 'standard', but don't know well it performs in situations like this. Happy to look at any suggestions.

 

The PA itself is of decent quality, Crown amps with separate subs and tops - I can't remember the name, but they weren't the budget option.

[BassAdder60]

Just now, geoham said:

The mic in question is an SM58. I know it's the 'standard', but don't know well it performs in situations like this. Happy to look at any suggestions.

 

The PA itself is of decent quality, Crown amps with separate subs and tops - I can't remember the name, but they weren't the budget option.

The SM58 is a standard but still isn’t the best for avoiding feedback in small setups 

 

It seems to pick up too much from all directions so it is prone to feedback

 

Great vocal  mic but feedback can be tough. The wireless version is even worse ! 

 

 

[cheddatom]

Drums are my main instrument at the moment. I play loud and quiet, but just wanted to note that the size of the shells or cymbals don't dictate the volume. Big =/= Loud. 

 

In my opinion, the drummer should be playing to the room, and if the room is small, he needs to take it easy on the cymbals and snare. 

[JoeEvans]

I seem to remember that the Audix OM7 vocal mic is good for this situation - very directional, although the singer needs to get right up close to the mic to get the best from it. I think it's a common choice for very loud stages. Might be worth a try?