Dealing with feedback with an uncompromising drummer

[Doctor J]

Who is using the floor monitor? If the drummer is using IEMs, is he getting drums in his mix? Can he hear himself in his in-ear mix or is he having to play loud  to do that?

 

But also bear in mind he's the only one playing an acoustic instrument, everyone else has the luxury of being able to dig in and control their output electrically. Perhaps he enjoys the visceral experience of drumming and being able to dig in, to be able to get physical and really get into it. He uses his touch to control how he projects to the far end of the venues you play, not a volume knob. A little empathy and understanding is needed on both sides, it feels like. He doesn't make you install a ramp and play the bass gently, I'm sure.

 

 

[Franticsmurf]

Would it be an option to get one of the other band members to do the sound? Once the others start to appreciate the problems as well peer pressure may improve the situation.

[geoham]

27 minutes ago, BassAdder60 said:

The SM58 is a standard but still isn’t the best for avoiding feedback in small setups 

 

It seems to pick up too much from all directions so it is prone to feedback

 

Great vocal  mic but feedback can be tough. The wireless version is even worse ! 

 

 

 

8 minutes ago, JoeEvans said:

I seem to remember that the Audix OM7 vocal mic is good for this situation - very directional, although the singer needs to get right up close to the mic to get the best from it. I think it's a common choice for very loud stages. Might be worth a try? 

Thank you both. It’s definitely something practical to consider.

[geoham]

1 minute ago, Franticsmurf said:

Would it be an option to get one of the other band members to do the sound? Once the others start to appreciate the problems as well peer pressure may improve the situation.

The exact scenario will be put to the test at Xmas time… the singer booked the small venue I mentioned above despite knowing I couldn’t do it. It’s just the bass after all. They’ve got a dep covering it.

 

[DaytonaRik]

Is the drummer adverse to using an eKit?  They don't have to be cheap and plastic looking, and when linked with some of the drum plugins from Steven Slate and ToonTracks you'd be hard pushed to tell them apart from an acoustic kit in any mix.  Yes it's an investment but it then becomes better for rehearsals, home practice etc.  Just a thought?

 

My eKit for reference!

 

Edited 17 hours ago by DaytonaRik

[gjones]

Sounds like the drummer is in the wrong band.

[meterman]

1 hour ago, cheddatom said:

Drums are my main instrument at the moment. I play loud and quiet, but just wanted to note that the size of the shells or cymbals don't dictate the volume. Big =/= Loud. 

 

In my opinion, the drummer should be playing to the room, and if the room is small, he needs to take it easy on the cymbals and snare. 

⬆️ This.

 

Percussion and drums have been my main instrument since my pre-teen years and I'm in my mid 50's now, and IMHO you should be able to gauge what's acceptable volume-wise in just about any situation. Theatres, bars, clubs, cafes, museums, rock festivals, pub gigs... There's not a 'one-style-one volume fits-all' type of playing, I learned that pretty early on. Your drummer should be able, and willing, to rein it in a bit ( or be prepared to use a smaller sized kit, or use electronic sample triggers on a mesh headed kit ) or something. Personally I wouldn't tolerate what you're having to do, just to accommodate one loud player who either can't or won't pull it in a bit. I wish you the best of luck! 👍

[meterman]

1 hour ago, cheddatom said:

 

Edited 16 hours ago by meterman
Sorry, double post due to slow internet connection...

[Dood]

"He'd rather not play than compromise his playing or equipment choice" red flag.  

 

I've been in the fortunate position to play with some pretty amazing top-tier drummers as I am sure many BassChatters have. Some of the best have not necesarily been the ones who know their way round the kit, but know their way around the environment. They listen and react as part of the group and do what is necessary to sound the best. For the sound, the band and the song. 

 

Adding to the suggestions (other than simply learning how to control ones dynamics which is half their battle it seems) a friend of mine had a kit set up especially for pub and small venue gigs. It was a 'recording' kit versus what could be termed as a 'live' kit. It sounded absolutely amazing, but did not even remotely sound as loud as his live alternative. The bell brass snare stayed at home, that's for sure! The cymbals (Bosphorous) too had a richer more lush sound versus those designed to be leathered (you know those Paiste ones from the 90's lol) and his choice of skins cut down on excessive ring and transients in favour of colour and tone.  Interestingly, it meant that we ended up hearing more 'textured' playing from the kit even though we both grew up a pair of metal heads. Think more Gavin Harrison ..  

In my current band, our on stage volume is such that we can talk loudly and still communicate mid-song. My drummer has a wonderful sense of self-control and knows how to deliver song dynamics that add to the experience. We then leave a really nice PA to do the heavy lifting. 

 

 

[Dood]

1 hour ago, JoeEvans said:

I seem to remember that the Audix OM7 vocal mic is good for this situation - very directional, although the singer needs to get right up close to the mic to get the best from it. I think it's a common choice for very loud stages. Might be worth a try? 

 

Lewitt make a great vical MIc with feedback rejection. There's another that I can't remember the name of too that I want to suggest.

[Rosie C]

2 hours ago, geoham said:

The mic in question is an SM58. I know it's the 'standard', but don't know well it performs in situations like this. Happy to look at any suggestions.

 

I suffered random feedback problems with a Sennheiser E835, then I changed to a Sennheiser ME-3 headset mic - no problems since   

[geoham]

1 hour ago, DaytonaRik said:

Is the drummer adverse to using an eKit?  They don't have to be cheap and plastic looking, and when linked with some of the drum plugins from Steven Slate and ToonTracks you'd be hard pushed to tell them apart from an acoustic kit in any mix.  Yes it's an investment but it then becomes better for rehearsals, home practice etc.  Just a thought?

 

My eKit for reference!

 

 

The idea has been touted by a couple of us. He would consider some of the high-end ones costing thousands if he could financially justify it - but definitely not a lower end one.

 

I do get it - my kid plays drums, and barely played the Yamaha electronic kit I bought him for the house. You should see what I have in my spare room now... 

[Buddster]

Just because you do the sound, I don't think it's just your problem. Doesn't the singer get annoyed with the feedback? Or everyone else? Tell them they can't go any louder because of the drummer. 

I've mixed bands with loud drummers, and tell them the sound wasn't great because their drumner drowned everything else out (same with lead guitarists). 

It's everyone's problem, not just yours. 

[geoham]

1 minute ago, Buddster said:

Just because you do the sound, I don't think it's just your problem. Doesn't the singer get annoyed with the feedback? Or everyone else? Tell them they can't go any louder because of the drummer. 

I've mixed bands with loud drummers, and tell them the sound wasn't great because their drumner drowned everything else out (same with lead guitarists). 

It's everyone's problem, not just yours. 

This is very true, and I should probably be more assertive about the point. I kind of dance around the point to avoid upsetting the drummer.

 

I think there's a misinformed view that because we have fairly good quality gear, a digital mixer and no amps on stage, that doing the sound is a doddle.

 

 

[Buddster]

1 minute ago, geoham said:

..... To avoid upsetting the drummer

He doesn't seem to mind upsetting you (or the band) 

[Dad3353]

Set the PA up to get the best vocal sound, and everyone else plays to that level. If the drummer can't do that, don't try to fiddle with the PA to 'compensate'. Once everyone (including the venue...) realise who's responsible, measures can be taken, either by the drummer, or by the band. If the drums are always drowning out the vocals, the bookings will dry up.

If there's an option of an e-kit, the Millenium MPS 850 is an affordable quality kit, made even better if triggering Superior Drummer software on a laptop. Superb quality drums with complete control over volume and playing style (except swish brushes...). 

[Norris]

Pity your audience. I wouldn't want to linger at a gig in a small venue where the drummer is deafening me by thrashing 7 shades out of the kit - no matter how "good" a drummer they are

 

I've also been there with loud drummers that can't/won't compromise - note the past tense 😀

[gjones]

The best drummers can play quietly, or loudly. I once asked a drummer I was playing with to play with rods instead of sticks, because the venue was small and the drums were too loud. He was a good pal so, against his instincts, he played the full gig with rods and we (and he) sounded great.

 

He ended up bathed in sweat, because he was having to really bash those drums, but the band sounded so much better.

 

You could suggest the same to your drummer......?

[Lozz196]

Why not set the mics at a rehearsal to the point just before they feedback, set the backline to the volume of the drums. then record it and send it out to the whole band. Wait for the comments of “we can’t hear the vocals” to appear then explain why.

[TimR]

6 hours ago, geoham said:

Basically he'd rather not play than compromise his playing or equipment choice.

 

Sounds good to me. Accept his choice and use another drummer for those gigs. 

[Kev]

He needs to actually become a better drummer and learn to be able to play to the gig.  Finding solutions to bring his volume down is nonsense, he just needs to accept his performances are bringing the band down. 

[SimonK]

[shock] a thread complaining about drummers on a bass forum [/shock]

[40hz]

Sorry to hear of the issue, OP. I've been in this scenario a few times. It seems to be (on the whole, but not always) a drummer thing, the culture of drums must be loud and noisy - think Animal from the Muppets, but of course this rarely works in the real world, with the venues most weekend warriors play.

 

With my own experience, it gets to a point where you just have to flatly tell them, as uncomfortable as it is. A few times I ended up not turning up my amp to compensate, and neither did the guitarist, and it kinda made him realise off his own back - which is usually the best way to get people to realise/understand!

Edited 13 hours ago by 40hz

[geoham]

12 minutes ago, 40hz said:

Sorry to hear of the issue, OP. I've been in this scenario a few times. It seems to be (on the whole, but not always) a drummer thing, the culture of drums must be loud and noisy - think Animal from the Muppets, but of course this rarely works in the real world, with the venues most weekend warriors play.

 

With my own experience, it gets to a point where you just have to flatly tell them, as uncomfortable as it is. A few times I ended up not turning up my amp to compensate, and neither did the guitarist, and it kinda made him realise off his own back - which is usually the best way to get people to realise/understand!

 

There is definitely a drummer thing about being loud. My kid's drum tutor is always telling him as much during lessons, although in fairness my kid self-identifies as a metal head!

 

The drummer is using IEMs, and controls his own mix via a tablet... he's got as much of us in his ears as he likes. I am guiding the band down a path of 'the overall volume needs to come down so folk can hear the singer without feedback'. We'll see how this weekend's gig goes.

 

Thanks,

George

[Buddster]

If he's using IEMs, does he actually know you're getting feedback? 

Set up a mic in front of the PA on a hidden fader (from the drummer) and send the feedback into his IEMs (doesn't have to be deafening, aa tempting as it may be!) 

 

In the immortal words of Reg Presley 

"drummers, I sh1t 'um" 

Edited 12 hours ago by Buddster