Dealing with feedback with an uncompromising drummer

[mcnach]

8 hours ago, geoham said:

I play in a pub-band, and also run sound - mostly from the stage which obviously isn't ideal, but what can you do in a pub when playing for beer money?

We've no amps on stage, the whole band is also using IEMs except one member who uses a floor monitor. All generally works well is larger pubs, but I am really struggling with feedback in smaller places. You know type of place.... you can feel the crash cymbal whooshing past your ear and the singer is almost sitting on bass drum!

 

Ultimately, our drummer is very loud. He's a hard-hitter, and it seems his kit is designed to be loud - large shells, cymbals etc. By the time I get a good balance between drums, guitar, bass and keys - I need to really crank the vocals meaning feedback if the vocalist even slightly moves the mic. The alternative is a drum-heavy mix - which is my go-to at the moment. 

 

In the past I've suggested that the drummer use a smaller kit (he has a few), or perhaps use a lighter hand. It didn't go down well. Basically he'd rather not play than compromise his playing or equipment choice. He's a very good drummer, and a long time friend of two band mates - so replacing him isn't an option.

 

I've got a feedback destroyer on our main outputs, which has helped. I know it's not ideal, but the alternative of ringing out feedback in a pub full of punters when we've got an hour from unloading the van the set starting isn't really feasible.

 

Do any of you have any advice mixing around a loud drummer, in particular eliminating vocal feedback in tight spaces?

 

Can't do much when someone is not a team player. 

 

A shield around him could be a good idea. It doesn't need to be transparent 😉

[geoham]

24 minutes ago, Buddster said:

If he's using IEMs, does he actually know you're getting feedback? 

Set up a mic in front of the PA on a hidden fader (from the drummer) and send the feedback into his IEMs (doesn't have to be deafening, aa tempting as it may be!) 

 

In the immortal words of Reg Presley 

"drummers, I sh1t 'um" 

Yeah, he knows what's going on - it ends up coming through the vocal channel.

[mcnach]

8 hours ago, Jean-Luc Pickguard said:

A drum screen is overkill for a pub gig and will look ridiculous if the setup is anything like the small pubs I've played in. The drummer needs to recognise that he is part of a band, and what the band sounds like as a whole is more important than his fragile ego.

 

 

This is the correct answer

 

[diskwave]

9 hours ago, geoham said:

Do any of you have any advice mixing around a loud drummer

Yep, get rid of him and I'm not joking. Played in umpteen 'club' bands with PA support and a drummer who knows what hes doing will play quietly and let the desk do the heavy lifting. Nothing worse than un-mixed instruments backline volume destroying the vibe from the board.

[Doctor J]

3 hours ago, geoham said:

 

The drummer is using IEMs, and controls his own mix via a tablet... he's got as much of us in his ears as he likes.

Can he get much of him as he likes too? The IEMs are blocking the acoustic sound of his kit, to some degree, so can he make up for that without having to hit the drums harder?

[Dad3353]

3 minutes ago, Doctor J said:

Can he get much of him as he likes too? The IEMs are blocking the acoustic sound of his kit, to some degree, so can he make up for that without having to hit the drums harder?

 

He won't be getting the acoustic sound of his kit unless it's fully mic'ed up, which probably won't be the case in a small pub venue. If the kit has only a bass drum mic, and maybe one overhead, plus the vocals and other instruments in the IEM mix, he'd have to adjust his playing a lot, if he's used to hearing the kit alone. It seems to me that it's an ideal case for an e-kit; no drum mic's at all and perfect drum mix both in the FOH and the IEM. It needn't cost an arm and a leg; there's some seriously good stuff available now. 

[redbandit599]

5 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

 

He won't be getting the acoustic sound of his kit unless it's fully mic'ed up, which probably won't be the case in a small pub venue. If the kit has only a bass drum mic, and maybe one overhead, plus the vocals and other instruments in the IEM mix, he'd have to adjust his playing a lot, if he's used to hearing the kit alone. It seems to me that it's an ideal case for an e-kit; no drum mic's at all and perfect drum mix both in the FOH and the IEM. It needn't cost an arm and a leg; there's some seriously good stuff available now. 

I was going to suggest fully micing the kit if you don't already - I don't have your 'extra loud' drummer problem, but he's not a tickler either. We always fully mic even in small venues and find this easier to get a good balanced sound (always use PA with subs.) We aren't really loud, but definitely punchy. Might enable a compromise of a quieter kit if it is still sounding fat out front maybe? 

Our drummer uses one of these Yamaha drum modules with his acoustic kit - gets a great sound through the PA and IEMs and doesn't need all the usual multiple mics. https://www.yamahamusiclondon.com/EAD10-Electro-Acoustic-Drum-System/pidJEAD10UK?srsltid=AfmBOoqEQD8eMh-s98f8OovD0H13NV9WFUCw_SDRmMSzGmaONxz8eoxS

 

[KingPrawn]

Tell the twa* to use IEM and play for the band. Selfish sod. if not sack him off. I get sick of explaining to other musicians about mic bleed etc. 

[Doctor J]

2 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

 

He won't be getting the acoustic sound of his kit unless it's fully mic'ed up, which probably won't be the case in a small pub venue.

Precisely why I asked the question 😉

 

If he can't adjust his own level in his IEMs outside of how hard he hits the drums, in response to the varying dynamics of the electric instruments in his ears, it might be part of the reason he's playing so hard and one which could be quite easy to remedy.

I'd wager he wouldn't play quite so hard if he could hear kick and snare loud and clear in his mix.

 

Edited October 29 by Doctor J

[borntohang]

Musicians in charge of their own monitoring have an unfortunate tendency to mix to the loudest dynamic of their instrument instead of the quietest, or to aim for a level where the instrument "sits" neatly in the overall mix. In my experience both generally lead to you leathering it all night or gradually turning up.

 

Ideally you should be able to hear yourself clearly at all dynamics over everything else and break away from the idea that your IEMs should be a balanced band mix like the audience is hearing.

 

I realise that as someone with FoH experience you probably know this already, but your drummer probably doesn't. 

[PaulWarning]

We have a similar problem, not the feedback, but being too loud in a small pub gig, I have raised the subject and asked if he could play quieter, but he just says he enjoys bashing hell out of the kit (he regularly trashes his 300 quid cymbals and at the end of gigs it's like a wood yard round his feet), in all other respects he's an ideal band member, decent drummers who don't cause problems within the band don't grow on trees so we just accept it

[Elfrasho]

Can't say I've ever seen a pub band with a drum screen. It might do the job but in all honesty, I'd be loathed to carry about an extra bit if kit purely because the drummer chooses to play loud.

 

The easy answer is he needs to stop hitting hard. Hitting hard diesnt make him "rock" harder. If he's as good as you say then he needs to moderate his sound as its clearly having a direct negative impact on the overall sound. 

 

It boggles my brain how certain musicians have this opinion.

 

If you ever have punters point this out, make sure he's in ear range.

 

 

 

 

 

[Dad3353]

2 hours ago, Elfrasho said:

...If you ever have punters point this out, make sure he's in ear range.

 

Not that he's likely to hear much. 

[TimR]

Drum sheilds/screens are not just to stop drum bleed into stage mics, they also stop amplifier bleed into drum mics.

 

If you're not using mics, you don't need one. 

[Leonard Smalls]

4 hours ago, PaulWarning said:

he just says he enjoys bashing hell out of the kit

We've got one of those as well! I have to hoover round the kit after every rehearsal...

But the drummer in my new jazzbluesfunky band leaves no mess at all and listens, as if he were an actual musician rather than a glorified metronome!

And with the Old Band, it's electronic drums anyway and due to his tinnitus can't play at stupid on-stage volume anyway...

[Boodang]

We had this problem with a drummer once. As he refused to do anything to reduce his volume we started playing gigs where we made everybody else in the band quieter than normal and refused to turn up, so the drums absolutely drowned out everybody. We ruined two gigs that way but the weight of opinion (from the audience as much as anybody) against him was so much he eventually saw the light. 

[gjones]

An interesting perspective, from our drummist brothers and sisters, on this very subject. 😀

 

https://www.drumforum.org/threads/tdpri-thread-loud-drums-how-to-overcome.220710/

 

As one of the comments from a drummer said, there are no loud drums, just loud drummers, as drums don't make sound until they're hit..

Edited October 30 by gjones

[TimR]

My professional trumpet player freind calls it the amatuer's disease. To make something more exciting, just play it louder and faster. 

 

 

 

[Tokalo]

These.

https://www.toneally.co.uk/product-page/silent-sticks

 

Drummer in one of my bands uses these when we play in church - feel like proper sticks when playing (so he can really let rip on the rocky songs), but reduce volume to an appropriate level.

[Dad3353]

38 minutes ago, Tokalo said:

These.

https://www.toneally.co.uk/product-page/silent-sticks

 

Drummer in one of my bands uses these when we play in church - feel like proper sticks when playing (so he can really let rip on the rocky songs), but reduce volume to an appropriate level.

 

These (and other similar sticks...) do the job, but are really quite delicate, so if the fellow is already splintering his sticks, they might not last a song, let alone a gig. I'm not at all a heavy hitter, and never break sticks, or even chip them, but wanted to reduce volume for rehearsals and studio sessions. I found none that would last long at all. It's true that they are quite good for 'feel' (although 'frise-rolls' and rebound need some getting used to...). My solution has always been to use cloth covers over the drums (like shower caps, but cloth...); I now have the ultimate answer with my e-kit, which does it all (except swish brushes...). 

 

With a sly wink, I could also suggest the following...

 

Aerodrums 2 ...

 

Video of Aerodrums 2 in action ...

 

I'm waiting on delivery of mine, ordered at their first announcement, supposed to be delivered in the next couple of weeks or so. 

Edited October 30 by Dad3353

[StingRayBoy42]

He *refuses* to play quieter?

Despite being told that he's making the band sound bad?

You don't need a different vocal mic, you need a different drummer.

[geoham]

On 29/10/2024 at 20:12, redbandit599 said:

I was going to suggest fully micing the kit if you don't already - I don't have your 'extra loud' drummer problem, but he's not a tickler either. We always fully mic even in small venues and find this easier to get a good balanced sound (always use PA with subs.) We aren't really loud, but definitely punchy. Might enable a compromise of a quieter kit if it is still sounding fat out front maybe? 

Our drummer uses one of these Yamaha drum modules with his acoustic kit - gets a great sound through the PA and IEMs and doesn't need all the usual multiple mics. https://www.yamahamusiclondon.com/EAD10-Electro-Acoustic-Drum-System/pidJEAD10UK?srsltid=AfmBOoqEQD8eMh-s98f8OovD0H13NV9WFUCw_SDRmMSzGmaONxz8eoxS

 

He has a Roland trigger module set up. I’m generally only putting a bit of low end out via the (aux fed) subs in smaller places, and the full sound at a comparatively low lover in bigger places.

 

I think there’s a mindset that he’s playing rock, so needs to hit hard - rather than any concern about being heard. Perhaps a point to discuss though.

[geoham]

23 hours ago, Doctor J said:

Precisely why I asked the question 😉

 

If he can't adjust his own level in his IEMs outside of how hard he hits the drums, in response to the varying dynamics of the electric instruments in his ears, it might be part of the reason he's playing so hard and one which could be quite easy to remedy.

I'd wager he wouldn't play quite so hard if he could hear kick and snare loud and clear in his mix.

 

He definitely can hear himself - he’s using a Roland trigger setup, which is primarily for his own monitoring.

[geoham]

1 hour ago, StingRayBoy42 said:

He *refuses* to play quieter?

Despite being told that he's making the band sound bad?

You don't need a different vocal mic, you need a different drummer.

To be fair, I don’t think the penny has quite dropped that his loud drums are the root cause of feedback on the vocal mic.

 

I’ve been fairly diplomatic and indirect after he threatened to quit in the past. Like ‘the overall volume of the band needs to be lower so we don’t crank the mic to the point of feedback’

 

Comments from other band members about ‘gremlins in the desk’, or how it must be a setting somewhere don’t help. 

 

I think more than anything, I need to be more direct when hint isn’t taken.

[Buddster]

32 minutes ago, geoham said:

 

I think more than anything, I need to be more direct when hint isn’t taken

Yes, you're right, try to be more direct. Plus you need the support of your other band members as well when you bring up the subject. 

Have you tried videoing/recording a gig for the band to listen back to? It may highlight the problem a bit easier to the other members. 

Sometimes in small venues, you just can't get the levels you want due to accoustics/layout of the venue. 

Edited October 30 by Buddster