Dealing with feedback with an uncompromising drummer

[TimR]

I love a cowbell.

 

But then I also love the sound an elastic band streched across a shoe makes. 

[StingRayBoy42]

4 minutes ago, TimR said:

I love a cowbell.

Do you know why cows wear bells?

Because the horns don't work.

[Dad3353]

[Jo.gwillim]

Sorry if the point's already been made. But been in exactly the the OP's situation. Really hard when you're the bass player being asked to turn the vocals up mid gig but know you can't.  Most of the feedback we had is was coming from the vocalist's floor monitor rather than FOH speakers. When she switched to iems things got so much easier even though she was the only one using them.

Our band took the decision to get someone else to do the sound even if it meant much less dosh for the band us. It takes that dual role off me and the sound bod can make subtle tweaks mid song that i could never do. 

[nige1968]

A (moderately) famous (at the time) touring band cancelled their gig at our polytechnic ents hall *on the night* because their drummer was sending the noise-o-meter off the scale and they wouldn't/couldn't make him/it any quieter. I helpfully suggested they could use the support band's drum kit and I wish I could convey in words the dirty look I got in response.

[TimR]

17 minutes ago, nige1968 said:

A (moderately) famous (at the time) touring band cancelled their gig at our polytechnic ents hall *on the night* because their drummer was sending the noise-o-meter off the scale and they wouldn't/couldn't make him/it any quieter. I helpfully suggested they could use the support band's drumer kit and I wish I could convey in words the dirty look I got in response.

 

[beely]

Seems to me you are seeking a technical solution to a human problem.

In fairness to your drummer (I know, I know 🙄), perhaps his use of IEM's and controlling his own mix is preventing him from hearing, quite literally, the scale of the problem.

The feedback issue you are experiencing may not be simply attributed to mic volume alone.

As someone who also does sound from the stage, I fully appreciate your situation.

I sometimes feel that my attention is split to the point I feel I'm doing neither job as well as I would like.

I hope you get things sorted out.

[Dad3353]

Can you try a Beta 58A instead, for the vocals..? It's a supercardio, so will reject more from off-centre. A definite improvement on the trusty SM58, and a tried and tested staple in FOH voice mic'ing. Just a thought. 

[paul_5]

Could you not just use the SM58 to beat your drummer into submission - those things are bomb-proof?

[meterman]

35 minutes ago, paul_5 said:

Could you not just use the SM58 to beat your drummer into submission - those things are bomb-proof?

Top tip - Use an SM57, you'll save a few quid on the event. Plus it'll still be working afterwards 👍

[tauzero]

23 hours ago, Boodang said:

As a drummer I'm just going to say that as a substitute for drums, cajons suck @rse!! 

 

 

[SimonK]

...oh crap... drummer not able to make it tomorrow and I'm playing Cajon in an "acoustic" set... so which would we rather have - a drummer that is too loud or a bassist having to cover on a Cajon??

[hubrad]

Without reading all 5 pages of this (on break at a dance gig), has anyone mentioned a more powerful pa, ie one with more headroom? 

Back in the 80s we struggled with 100 or 200W pa heads, no headroom therefore feedback 

[Downunderwonder]

The cure to feedback is never more volume.

[TimR]

15 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

Can you try a Beta 58A instead, for the vocals..? It's a supercardio, so will reject more from off-centre. A definite improvement on the trusty SM58, and a tried and tested staple in FOH voice mic'ing. Just a thought. 

 

If you use a Beta; move the monitor speaker to the side which helps then as well. 

[geoham]

13 hours ago, hubrad said:

Without reading all 5 pages of this (on break at a dance gig), has anyone mentioned a more powerful pa, ie one with more headroom? 

Back in the 80s we struggled with 100 or 200W pa heads, no headroom therefore feedback 

The PA is plenty powerful. 2 x 2000w Crown amps for the tops. (One would do, but means we always have a spare)

Couple of active subs (aux fed).

 

But to the point about more headroom, the amps level is generally down fairly low - venue dependant. Perhaps there’s something in putting that up and setting the mixer levels a bit lower.

[geoham]

20 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

Can you try a Beta 58A instead, for the vocals..? It's a supercardio, so will reject more from off-centre. A definite improvement on the trusty SM58, and a tried and tested staple in FOH voice mic'ing. Just a thought. 

Worth a go, we’ll see what we can beg, borrow or steal before spending cash!

[Dan Dare]

18 hours ago, meterman said:

Top tip - Use an SM57, you'll save a few quid on the event. Plus it'll still be working afterwards 👍

 

Nah. Plastic pop shield. 58 is metal.

[Dad3353]

1 hour ago, geoham said:

Worth a go, we’ll see what we can beg, borrow or steal before spending cash!

 

It's a better mic for lead vocals, anyway, so can't make things worse. Worth the money if the singer has a 'voice'; not so much for an 'Oi' punk shouter, though. 

[TimR]

2 hours ago, geoham said:

Worth a go, we’ll see what we can beg, borrow or steal before spending cash!

 

https://service.shure.com/s/article/difference-between-cardioid-and-supercardioid?language=en_US

 

As I say, watch the placement of the monitor. They will have less rear rejection. 

[Dad3353]

5 minutes ago, TimR said:

https://service.shure.com/s/article/difference-between-cardioid-and-supercardioid?language=en_US

 

As I say, watch the placement of the monitor. They will have less rear rejection. 

 

Quite, so the ideal monitor would be a pair, at 45° each side of the lead singer's feet. One would do, but best off-centre, at 45° (better for hearing it, too...). Make sure that the singer doesn't 'lean into' the monitor, ever, too. 

Edited November 3, 2024 by Dad3353

[geoham]

10 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

 

Quite, so the ideal monitor would be a pair, at 45° each side of the lead singer's feet. One would do, but best off-centre, at 45° (better for hearing it, too...). Make sure that the singer doesn't 'lean into' the monitor, ever, too. 

Cheers.

Thankfully the singer uses in ears, so no concerns.

[TimR]

OK. I've missed something. 

 

Is the drummer using a floor monitor? Everyone else in ears. 

 

Where is the feedback from? 

 

Is it the mains because you're having to boost the vocals over the drummer?

 

If so, turn the drummers floor monitor down. If he can't hear it then he'll have to tailor his drum volume to balance that. I suspect this is a mini version of volume wars. Drums loud, turn up monitor, drums play louder, turn up mains to cope. Etc etc.

 

Turn down his floor monitor. 

[geoham]

39 minutes ago, TimR said:

OK. I've missed something. 

 

Is the drummer using a floor monitor? Everyone else in ears. 

 

Where is the feedback from? 

 

Is it the mains because you're having to boost the vocals over the drummer?

 

If so, turn the drummers floor monitor down. If he can't hear it then he'll have to tailor his drum volume to balance that. I suspect this is a mini version of volume wars. Drums loud, turn up monitor, drums play louder, turn up mains to cope. Etc etc.

 

Turn down his floor monitor. 

Only our guitarist has a floor monitor, everyone is one IEMs.

 

Feedback is coming from the lead vocalist’s mic, which is due to it being too close to the FOH speakers when we play in small venues.
 

Overall mix of the band is dominated by drums. Increasing the volume of the guitar, bass and keys to match the drums means the vocals can’t keep up without feedback.

[Beedster]

On 29/10/2024 at 10:10, Jean-Luc Pickguard said:

The drummer needs to recognise that he is part of a band, and what the band sounds like as a whole is more important than his fragile ego.

 

 

Good luck with that 🤔