lemmywinks Posted November 3, 2024 Posted November 3, 2024 35 minutes ago, AndyTravis said: Jump on this https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1K34hJeyBe/? Just spotted this and came here to post it, Andy got in first! Quote
Doctor J Posted November 4, 2024 Posted November 4, 2024 (edited) 12 hours ago, nick said: Not wanting to debate this, but I recently had to replace a dead MB-1 pickup in one of my 'Batwing' SB-700's with an Armstrong reproduction as Rautia are no longer producing them. I honestly couldn't hear any discernible difference in tone when A/B'ing it against an identical SB-700 with it's original MB-1. The Armstrong sounded great IMHO. I had it and the other original in the same bass, an SB R-80, and regardless of which pickup was in which position, they sounded badly mismatched. The Armstrong was a lot darker, sounded nothing like the pickup it was bought to replace. The Armstrong had two full length coils, not a Precision design under the cover, for a start. In the end, I traded the working original MB for another Armstrong (I knew a guy who had a SB-1000 with a dead coil), just so I could have two pickups which sounded somewhat related to each other and make the bass usable again. Edited November 4, 2024 by Doctor J Quote
prowla Posted November 4, 2024 Posted November 4, 2024 (edited) 9 hours ago, AndyTravis said: Jump on this https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1K34hJeyBe/? Me three - I was just going to post that. Edited November 4, 2024 by prowla Quote
nick Posted November 4, 2024 Posted November 4, 2024 2 hours ago, Doctor J said: I had it and the other original in the same bass, an SB R-80, and regardless of which pickup was in which position, they sounded badly mismatched. The Armstrong was a lot darker, sounded nothing like the pickup it was bought to replace. The Armstrong had two full length coils, not a Precision design under the cover, for a start. In the end, I traded the working original MB for another Armstrong (I knew a guy who had a SB-1000 with a dead coil), just so I could have two pickups which sounded somewhat related to each other and make the bass usable again. Yes, the Armstrong reproduction is two jazz like coils parallel to each other within the casing. However the original Aria MB1/1E's are the same construction. This is the dead Aria MB1 taken from my SB700 which shows that: I believe your SB R-80 would have had MBII pickups which were constructed as per P-Bass configuration. So, unsurprisingly the Armstrong would sound quite different & possibly mismatched with the existing MBII in your SB R-80. 1 Quote
tauzero Posted November 4, 2024 Posted November 4, 2024 On 30/10/2024 at 19:07, thegummy said: Thanks a lot guys. Had no idea it was such a complicated bass. Just been listening to Marillion a lot lately, loved the bass tone so much and looked up what it was. Thought it might be the pickup type/placement that was giving it, hadn't counted on there being unique gadgetry. Appreciate the help. Pete Trewavas plays a load of different basses - Warwick Thumb is what I primarily associate with him, but also Ibanez soundgear (don't know which) and a Cort GB4 Custom. Quote
Misdee Posted November 4, 2024 Posted November 4, 2024 (edited) 2 hours ago, tauzero said: Pete Trewavas plays a load of different basses - Warwick Thumb is what I primarily associate with him, but also Ibanez soundgear (don't know which) and a Cort GB4 Custom. Pete played an Aria around the time of the Fugazi album(1984), and did indeed get a great sound with it. Whether he played it on that all or any of the tracks on that album I really don't know. A lot of it sounds like it could be a Rickenbacker, but equally it could be the SB1000 with a strident EQ setting. Anyhow, I would assume that is the era the O.P was referring to. Edited November 4, 2024 by Misdee Quote
Cosmo Valdemar Posted November 4, 2024 Posted November 4, 2024 19 minutes ago, Misdee said: Pete played an Aria around the time of the Fugazi album(1984), and did indeed get a great sound with it. Whether he played it on that all or any of the tracks on that album I really don't know. A lot of it sounds like it could be a Rickenbacker, but equally it could be the SB1000 with a strident EQ setting. Anyhow, I would assume that is the era the O.P was referring to. I adore the Fugazi bass tone but haven't come close to it with any Rickenbacker or Aria. I've always assumed it was the Aria but frustratingly I just can't get anywhere near it. 1 Quote
Misdee Posted November 4, 2024 Posted November 4, 2024 (edited) 1 hour ago, Cosmo Valdemar said: I adore the Fugazi bass tone but haven't come close to it with any Rickenbacker or Aria. I've always assumed it was the Aria but frustratingly I just can't get anywhere near it. I know what you mean. It sounds like new Rotosound strings played with a pick and a bit of overdrive on the top end. And compression. Pete's a terrific player within his chosen idiom though, it must be said, and that always helps. Like so many accomplished musicians, it's probably more the attitude with which he plays rather than the minutiae of the gear he's using. Edited November 4, 2024 by Misdee Quote
tauzero Posted November 4, 2024 Posted November 4, 2024 He does use a pick so that would affect things. 1 Quote
Prostheta Posted November 5, 2024 Posted November 5, 2024 Hey all. Apologies for being late to the game, and hey over there @Norris, @Hellzero, etc! Yes, I am still selling upgrade preamps for SB-1000s both on eBay and Reverb however it is cheaper to deal direct since that way I am not forced to have to use an expensive tracked shipping option. Reissues. Well, there are multiple issues with those. First and foremost, the hardware is not the same. The Gotoh bridge is way more adjustable and sane than the original, but isn't the same sort of "the mass of brass" by comparison. The fingerboard is now Ebony, whereas originally they were Jacaranda....which is a vague name for many woods, and without trying or wanting to stir controversy....I've heard Braz Rosewood called that multiple times before today. The pickups are not the same, but are more or less similar. My big issue comes with the electronics. When whoever owns the IP took the design back to manufacture, they started using a big open PCB-based preamp with a Mitsubishi alarm SIL IC for the battery blinker. What they did not do is maintain any of the quality of the parts. The resistors and caps are literally the cheapest ceramics and carbon comps, and inexplicably they retained the JRC4558 op-amp which is just insane. It's literally an iteration of the uA741 which was 60s grade tech. Current hungry, noisy and just not an efficient design. They also made it incompatible with the originals without significant rewiring and decisions needing to be made on how the LED works. So yes, as far as calling it a "re-issue" is concerned, that's stretching it. Talking of Armstrong and stretching things, Kent Armstrong in the US makes some very well-regarded repros. Aaron Armstrong in the UK apparently, not so much. It's been a good ten plus years since I've known anybody order one from Aaron, but that disappointment and poor experience stuck in my mind. Several people I know to be credible rate Kent's copies. Interesting that somebody else is making them here in the EU. I'll have to check out bassculture. @Jack The six-way varitone is an active LPF with a different decade characteristic to a passive LPF like a tone control. It also has a distinctive mid-bump which provides the character of each position. It's a very to-taste filter, but is another part of why the SB-1000 was a definingly 80s-sounding bass. It picks its way through a mix with that "honk", especially in the positions around the fifth fret. This is another area where they cheaped out on the re-issues, because they bought in the cheapest open-frame rotary switch and banged on the cheapest components for the RC array around it. For a nice demo on the woody honky tonality of the SB-1000, check out my good friend Zuma's channel. His recent re-do of Duran Duran's "New Moon On Monday" showcases wonderfully just how this bass pushes through a mix in a very specific way.... 7 Quote
Prostheta Posted November 5, 2024 Posted November 5, 2024 I'd also add the obvious....reissues do not use the same quality and grade of woods that were available in the 70s/80s. Back then, Matsumoku were pretty unique in that they spent at least a year longer in seasoning their wood stock before use. As a builder and industrial woodworker, I can tell you flat out that this makes a significant difference even though it doesn't make sense that the same wood doesn't seem to achieve that "as an instrument"! I'd use the analogy of whisky aging in a barrel where it doesn't continue to do so in the bottle, but that's just faulty. Anyway, they used super good wood and really discriminated between excellent and "okay" with the SB-1000 and other laminated neck flagships. Originals in good nick are worth hunting down for care and resto. 4 Quote
Cosmo Valdemar Posted November 5, 2024 Posted November 5, 2024 1 hour ago, Prostheta said: Hey all. Apologies for being late to the game, and hey over there @Norris, @Hellzero, etc! Yes, I am still selling upgrade preamps for SB-1000s both on eBay and Reverb however it is cheaper to deal direct since that way I am not forced to have to use an expensive tracked shipping option. Mad thought - would it be possible to install the preamps into a pedal, thereby giving us humble SB700 players a chance to get those tones? 3 Quote
Norris Posted November 6, 2024 Posted November 6, 2024 13 hours ago, Prostheta said: Hey all Great to hear from you and thanks for your insights. I know that you know a lot more about these basses than your average owner (i.e. me) does 😂 Hope everything is OK with you and that you're well Quote
prowla Posted November 6, 2024 Posted November 6, 2024 I've got an SB-600 which I happened across when I wandered into a shop. 8 Quote
GreeneKing Posted March 12 Posted March 12 (edited) Thread revival. I know that Mark (Bass Culture) had an Aria conceived bass made by Mike Walsh of Zoot in Essex. Some here may be aware. It has the now no longer available Rautia MB-1E pickup and Carl’s BB Noiseless preamp. It’s a medium scale bass. Mike added a 6 position varitone of his own design to the build. With apologies for a lengthy post here 🙂 I followed the ‘ZB1000’ build with much interest at the time, having my own custom Zoot Funkmeister 32” scale P bass with Noll preamp. I’ve also owned a couple of Arias, one with failed electronics. Things happen. Mark sold me his Funkmeister 32” Jazz to make room while the ZB build was happening. This bass is a real stunner and it plays and sounds very well although I don’t use it often, preferring P basses. I told Mark I was thinking of selling it and gave him first refusal. He’s suggested trading for the ‘Zoot ZB1000’. It’s likely to happen on Saturday. I’m intrigued by the tonal abilities of the bass. I’ve also been in touch with both Mike and Carl as it seems the bass will need a new switching jack socket. They have been very helpful. Here’s the build thread. Peter Edited March 12 by GreeneKing Quote
Bass Culture Posted March 13 Posted March 13 I think we ended up with a genuine SB-1000 6-way varitone in my ZB-1000 actually, Peter. It was simply coincidental that Mike found he had one he had stashed away that he'd forgotten about, tested it and found it to be in A1 condition. Not before he'd drawn up the plans for his own duplicate, so he still has the frequency centre information on file and various other information relating to his version of the circuit. Quote
NancyJohnson Posted March 16 Posted March 16 Just scanning through the posts here and the whole subject of chasing tone. Same old, same old. Never ages. OP: "I've been listening to a lot of <insert band here> and want to get a <insert bass here> or something that sounds like it." Replies: "Oh, he played a <insert bass here> and also a <insert bass here>. I had a <insert bass here> and put in a <insert pickup here> and it sounded <insert superlative here>. <Insert random photo here.>". Lads, we really need to stop chasing this ridiculous dream of tone perfection, because unless you have (very) deep pockets, you'll always be on the hunt and it will never end. I'll say it again and again; tone is subjective, your gold standard is someone else's iron pyrite. There's this allusion that sounding like Pino/Geddy/Jaco/whoever needs to be facilitated with the purchase of a triple-priced Custom Shop Signature model, but it won't. There's too many factors/nuances that go towards what they sound like from string choice, processing, signal chain, to the air that hits your ears. Go and watch some Rig Rundowns on You Tube. A good analogy here: I remember how sad I felt when, some 40+ years ago, I found that a lot of Geddy Lee's stuff was recorded on a (then) still relatively new Fender Jazz bass. I'd been duped because I was of the belief that it was a Rickenbacker all along. Quote
prowla Posted March 16 Posted March 16 1 hour ago, NancyJohnson said: Just scanning through the posts here and the whole subject of chasing tone. Same old, same old. Never ages. OP: "I've been listening to a lot of <insert band here> and want to get a <insert bass here> or something that sounds like it." Replies: "Oh, he played a <insert bass here> and also a <insert bass here>. I had a <insert bass here> and put in a <insert pickup here> and it sounded <insert superlative here>. <Insert random photo here.>". Lads, we really need to stop chasing this ridiculous dream of tone perfection, because unless you have (very) deep pockets, you'll always be on the hunt and it will never end. I'll say it again and again; tone is subjective, your gold standard is someone else's iron pyrite. There's this allusion that sounding like Pino/Geddy/Jaco/whoever needs to be facilitated with the purchase of a triple-priced Custom Shop Signature model, but it won't. There's too many factors/nuances that go towards what they sound like from string choice, processing, signal chain, to the air that hits your ears. Go and watch some Rig Rundowns on You Tube. A good analogy here: I remember how sad I felt when, some 40+ years ago, I found that a lot of Geddy Lee's stuff was recorded on a (then) still relatively new Fender Jazz bass. I'd been duped because I was of the belief that it was a Rickenbacker all along. So, how can I sound like Geddy then? 🙂 1 Quote
thegummy Posted March 16 Author Posted March 16 12 hours ago, NancyJohnson said: Just scanning through the posts here and the whole subject of chasing tone. Same old, same old. Never ages. OP: "I've been listening to a lot of <insert band here> and want to get a <insert bass here> or something that sounds like it." Replies: "Oh, he played a <insert bass here> and also a <insert bass here>. I had a <insert bass here> and put in a <insert pickup here> and it sounded <insert superlative here>. <Insert random photo here.>". Lads, we really need to stop chasing this ridiculous dream of tone perfection, because unless you have (very) deep pockets, you'll always be on the hunt and it will never end. I'll say it again and again; tone is subjective, your gold standard is someone else's iron pyrite. There's this allusion that sounding like Pino/Geddy/Jaco/whoever needs to be facilitated with the purchase of a triple-priced Custom Shop Signature model, but it won't. There's too many factors/nuances that go towards what they sound like from string choice, processing, signal chain, to the air that hits your ears. Go and watch some Rig Rundowns on You Tube. A good analogy here: I remember how sad I felt when, some 40+ years ago, I found that a lot of Geddy Lee's stuff was recorded on a (then) still relatively new Fender Jazz bass. I'd been duped because I was of the belief that it was a Rickenbacker all along. It's not that at all. I wanted, e.g., the Pink Floyd bass sound so got a precision with flats. Now when I want that sound I play that bass and get it. I wanted a Stevie Ray Vaughan guitar sound so got a Strat and get that sound when I want it. Etc. Not everyone asking these questions is on some futile dream chase. 4 Quote
NancyJohnson Posted March 17 Posted March 17 7 hours ago, thegummy said: It's not that at all. I wanted, e.g., the Pink Floyd bass sound so got a precision with flats. Now when I want that sound I play that bass and get it. I wanted a Stevie Ray Vaughan guitar sound so got a Strat and get that sound when I want it. Etc. Not everyone asking these questions is on some futile dream chase. I'm sorry, but no. Forget the actual bass or guitar that you're using for a minute, here. To get 'the Pink Floyd bass sound' (whatever that actually is), what is your signal chain? And, Roger Waters or Guy Pratt? My point is (and always has been) that, by and large, the clean tone of the vast majority of basses is more or less the same. In a effort to reinforce this, we did a blind test a few years back with over a dozen basses and the scores for identification were extremely low. Members here couldn't hear/tell the difference between Jazz or Precision or Rickenbackers or whatever. A Precision Bass alone will simply not give you 'the Pink Floyd bass sound' any more than it will deliver 'the Phil Lynott, Bruce Foxton, Steve Harris (etc) tone' without certain characteristics in the signal path. It's just a tool to facilitate it. Any bass will do it. Quote
Lozz196 Posted March 17 Posted March 17 Sadly I have to agree. I say sadly, as the best Precision sound I’ve ever heard was my mates maple necked 70s Jazz bass with roundwound strings quite possibly as old as the bass. Put through his very reasonably priced Behringer set up it was immense. To my ears it was Precision/SVT/Rotosounds. Quote
prowla Posted March 17 Posted March 17 2 hours ago, NancyJohnson said: I'm sorry, but no. Forget the actual bass or guitar that you're using for a minute, here. To get 'the Pink Floyd bass sound' (whatever that actually is), what is your signal chain? And, Roger Waters or Guy Pratt? My point is (and always has been) that, by and large, the clean tone of the vast majority of basses is more or less the same. In a effort to reinforce this, we did a blind test a few years back with over a dozen basses and the scores for identification were extremely low. Members here couldn't hear/tell the difference between Jazz or Precision or Rickenbackers or whatever. A Precision Bass alone will simply not give you 'the Pink Floyd bass sound' any more than it will deliver 'the Phil Lynott, Bruce Foxton, Steve Harris (etc) tone' without certain characteristics in the signal path. It's just a tool to facilitate it. Any bass will do it. I have to say in that test, I didn't identify my own vintage Rickenbacker (though actually I rarely played it through an amp and I think the horseshoe magnet may need re-magnetising), but I thought the other Ric might be it; I could say that there are some considerations which the test didn't cover and so I'd be wary of taking the results standalone: The riff @cetera was playing was restricted to the first 7 frets; a characteristic of a Ric is how its sound changes as you go up the neck (because of the Bass/neck pickup). The amp settings were the same, so a more powerful or active bass might have a more impressive sound. I don't know if the tone settings were flat, but that might not be what the various owners/afficionados might choose and so migh mask the "tells" of the various instruments. I do agree and often say the instrument is the bass + the amp(s) + the speakers + the rest of the signal chain (+ the venue). But the thing is though that you can optimise the signal chain to accentuate the features of the instrument; the most obvious example of that is splitting the pickups to different channels (Rick-O-Sound, Billy Sheehan, etc.), so that you can tune each idependently. So, I don't agree that any bass will do. Some other considerations: You can't ignore who is playing the instrument: Geddy Lee said that he bought a Ric thinking he'd sound like Chris Squire and found out he didn't. You can tune in to a particular instrument, for example Chris Squire said the Ric folks made a copy of his RM1999, but it sounded nothing like it. Geddy Lee used a Ric and a Jazz on Moving Pictures; the distorted sound on the lower 7 frets is remarkably similar, but if I play songs on a Ric and a Jazz I can catch the nuances. I have two 2010 Ric 4003 basses and they sound different. I was in a music store and heard a glorious double bass sound from the next room; I went there to check it out and was totally surprised to see it was someone playing a Ric through a Markbass amp (which is what i have). I once put a Seymour Duncan pickup on a Ric and could not get the Ric sound; I've had different pickups on Precisions and they do not sound the same. I went to a guitar show on the weekend and played one bass there which had been custom built with a MM pickup (with series/parallel/single-coil) and a Precision one, plus active/passive; I would say that each option sounded distinctly different and certainly not just more or less the same. As to Pink Floyd, I'd say the bass has a pretty nondescript sound. Quote
NancyJohnson Posted March 17 Posted March 17 17 minutes ago, Lozz196 said: Sadly I have to agree. I say sadly, as the best Precision sound I’ve ever heard was my mates maple necked 70s Jazz bass with roundwound strings quite possibly as old as the bass. Put through his very reasonably priced Behringer set up it was immense. To my ears it was Precision/SVT/Rotosounds. With hindsight, I'd say the most important thing with gear is just find a bass that [you] love the shape of, something that makes you actually want to pick it up and play, something that makes the hairs stand up on the back of your neck when you pop the latches on the case. This is one hundred percent the most important thing. 2nd bit of advice would be to take on board that they all, more or less, fundamentally sound the same out of the box. In general it doesn't matter what pickups you have installed. The sound is only really affected once you apply other elements (amps/cabs, stomps etc) and how you actually play the thing. We're just slaves to guitar and amplifier makers and the remoras that are making pickups/pre-amps. 2 Quote
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