Getting better on bass... where now?

[bassbiscuits]

On 07/11/2024 at 23:25, Geek99 said:

I’ve never left it, but with your last paragraph you are straying to The Dark Side and I urge you to avoid it like the plague 

Yoda would be proud, stick to the righteous path of bass, avoid the six string w**kery

I disagree with this - I’ve played acoustic guitar almost as long as I’ve played bass and there have been many benefits. 
 

It’s broadened the range of music I listen to and therefore what I learn to play. It’s a great songwriting tool. Making the chord shapes on guitar has informed my bass playing and helped build dexterity in my fingers. 
 

In music I don’t think any knowledge or skill is ever wasted, and I’ve found from a lifetime of gigging that being a multi-instrumentalist gets me the most work. 
 

If you’re enjoying learning guitar too, then go for it. It’s all useful knowledge. 

[Geek99]

1 hour ago, OliverBlackman said:

What on earth… how is your finger choice impacting your timing? Timing should be independent of technique.

 

This is the problem with teachers, they can help or hinder dependent on their own ability to teach.

It’s something about my particular physiognomy. He was right 

[Geek99]

3 minutes ago, bassbiscuits said:

I disagree with this - I’ve played acoustic guitar almost as long as I’ve played bass and there have been many benefits. 
 

It’s broadened the range of music I listen to and therefore what I learn to play. It’s a great songwriting tool. Making the chord shapes on guitar has informed my bass playing and helped build dexterity in my fingers. 
 

In music I don’t think any knowledge or skill is ever wasted, and I’ve found from a lifetime of gigging that being a multi-instrumentalist gets me the most work. 
 

If you’re enjoying learning guitar too, then go for it. It’s all useful knowledge. 

It was somewhat tongue in cheek 

[tauzero]

3 hours ago, Geek99 said:

It was somewhat tongue in cheek 

 

There's always the risk it could be taken seriously...

 

I'm certainly not the only one on here who came to bass via guitar - don't know if we're in the majority, if not we're a substantial minority. Guitar is a useful skill to have as you think more around chord structures. Keep meaning to work on my almost non-existent keyboard skills too.

[bassbiscuits]

3 hours ago, Geek99 said:

It was somewhat tongue in cheek 

Yes my mistake. I thought we were trying to offer helpful answers 😁

[Stub Mandrel]

On 08/11/2024 at 00:07, Steve Browning said:

I would add that chords include other notes you can use as a bass player. I learned the piano before I discovered bass, and that grounding has helped over the years. 

 

This.

 

Remember theory is far more useful than notation.

[OliverBlackman]

7 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

This.

 

Remember theory is far more useful than notation.

Notation is merely a form of communication.
Theory is a tool for composition.

You can learn one without the other, but dependent on your end goal, it may be helpful to give both equal attention. 

Edited November 10 by OliverBlackman
Missed a comma

[Stub Mandrel]

11 hours ago, OliverBlackman said:

Notation is merely a form of communication.
Theory is a tool for composition.

You can learn one without the other, but dependent on your end goal, it may be helpful to give both equal attention. 

 

Sadly I can't read pitch from notation despite fifty years of intermittent effort. Any progress evaporates with a week of inactivity.

 

I fully understand how it works but as my brain refuses to associate note positions with pitch.... I  took about three minutes to work out a simple two-bar melody on a napkin the other day. And even then I wasn't sure I got it right.

 

Understanding keys and modes, how chords are built, how harmony works and resolves and a better understanding of rhythm (oddly I can read rhythm readonably well) have all helped my playing develop.

 

It does mean I cannot sight read, but it's never been an issue standing in at a jam night.

[Jo.gwillim]

What a great wealth of advice on this thread. For me it's 

Keep it fun 

Put itunes/radio/spotify on random and try to keep up. 

Sing the notes you want to play. Try to play what you sing rather than what your fingers tell you to do. 

Experiment with weird sounds and ways of playing let one thing lead to another just keep going. Something good usually emerges. I find this really helps me from  getting stuck. 

Learn all the notes up and down the finger board. 

I've been lucky enough to play in more than one band simultaneously. Both need a very different style but what i learn from one really helps in the other and vice versa. So play with as many people as you can. 

[OliverBlackman]

11 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

Sadly I can't read pitch from notation despite fifty years of intermittent effort. Any progress evaporates with a week of inactivity.

 

I fully understand how it works but as my brain refuses to associate note positions with pitch.... I  took about three minutes to work out a simple two-bar melody on a napkin the other day. And even then I wasn't sure I got it right.

 

Understanding keys and modes, how chords are built, how harmony works and resolves and a better understanding of rhythm (oddly I can read rhythm readonably well) have all helped my playing develop.

 

It does mean I cannot sight read, but it's never been an issue standing in at a jam night.

Like learning any language it’s difficult and I’m lucky I was exposed to it as a child and have been reading on and off since.

 

It’s just another tool. If someone brought sheet music to the jam night (rare but heard it can happen) it’d be easier to read it than learn by ear/ theory. I read tunes from songbooks and to transcribe songs I learn by ear because my memory is terrible.

[diskwave]

48 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

Sadly I can't read pitch from notation despite fifty years of intermittent effort. Any progress evaporates with a week of inactivity.

 

I fully understand how it works but as my brain refuses to associate note positions with pitch.... I  took about three minutes to work out a simple two-bar melody on a napkin the other day. And even then I wasn't sure I got it right.

 

Understanding keys and modes, how chords are built, how harmony works and resolves and a better understanding of rhythm (oddly I can read rhythm readonably well) have all helped my playing develop.

 

It does mean I cannot sight read, but it's never been an issue standing in at a jam night.

We're all here trying to help this fellow and you plonk a sad emoji on my comment?  Dont mean to be rude and pass judgement but reading the above, I think I might just b a smidge more experienced than yourself.

[BigRedX]

On 07/11/2024 at 19:01, diskwave said:

Bin the tabs and learn notation.. Without notation you'll always be stuck playing in pub/club bands. Also... try and study Jazz. The shapes and patterns in jazz can be applied to all other styles. If you can play jazz then everything else is a piece of cake.

 

Are you serious?

 

IME being able to learn by ear is a far more useful skill than being able to read. If you can do this then you can potentially learn to play anything you hear without relying on having it written down as either Tab or notation which may well be wrong. It will also help you work out your own bass and guitar parts if you don't want to do covers or compose your own music.

 

Also IME when starting out it is important to concentrate on learning music that you enjoy listening to. Nothing puts beginners off quicker than having to play stuff they don't like and have not interest in for sake of "technique" and "development". I speak from experience; it wasn't until I started playing music that I liked that I showed any noticeable improvement in ability.

 

I still say that the best thing the OP can do is to get out there and join a band. It takes away the safety net of playing along to records where the arrangement and tempo is exactly the same every time and the original bass line is there in the background to prompt you and disguise any mistakes you might be making.

[diskwave]

1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

Are you serious?

 

IME being able to learn by ear is a far more useful skill than being able to read

 

Get back to me if you ever want to play in a groovy modern Jazz unit, or big band, or theatre pit, or.....I can go on but probably dont need to.

But sure, you can learn the easy pop stuff by ear no probs .... been doing it for ever,  but a lot of musicians whilst busking the tricky styles etc will have learnt the stuff off the page.....It's quicker and just plain more sensible and fun too and also improives ur chops because of the accuracy needed. 

 

As I said to that other bloke.. Just trying to pass on some age old wisdom even if its deemed "sad" for doing so.

Edited November 11 by diskwave

[BigRedX]

13 minutes ago, diskwave said:

 

Get back to me if you ever want to play in a groovy modern Jazz unit, or big band, or theatre pit, or.....I can go on but probably dont need to.

But sure, you can learn the easy pop stuff by ear no probs .... been doing it for ever,  but a lot of musicians whilst busking the tricky styles etc will have learnt the stuff off the page.....It's quicker and just plain more sensible and fun too and also improives ur chops because of the accuracy needed. 

 

As I said to that other bloke.. Just trying to pass on some age old wisdom even if its deemed "sad" for doing so.

 

But I don't want to play in a groovy modern Jazz unit, or big band, or theatre pit, or... and neither might the OP.

 

In 50 years of playing in bands the only time I needed to know how to read or write music was for a short time in the 80s when submitting new compositions to the PRS it was necessary to score out the main musical themes of my songs. Even that isn't required these days.

 

I've never been presented with tab or a score to play from, so I haven't needed to expand my reading skills beyond knowing what the dots mean, and I certainly couldn't play a piece from sight, but if I wasn't able to pick up a part by ear I'd still be stuck in my bedroom playing to myself. 

 

IME it is best to concentrate on the skills that are most useful to you right now. Learn the other stuff later if you start to find that you need it.

 

Since the OP hasn't been back to post more information on their musical goals all this speculation is moot.

[Dad3353]

40 minutes ago, diskwave said:

 

Get back to me if you ever want to play in a groovy modern Jazz unit, or big band, or theatre pit, or.....I can go on but probably dont need to.

But sure, you can learn the easy pop stuff by ear no probs .... been doing it for ever,  but a lot of musicians whilst busking the tricky styles etc will have learnt the stuff off the page.....It's quicker and just plain more sensible and fun too and also improives ur chops because of the accuracy needed. 

 

As I said to that other bloke.. Just trying to pass on some age old wisdom even if its deemed "sad" for doing so.

 

It's not only the advice given, but the tone of this advice; 'snarky' snide comments are not conducive to sympathetic reception of your core messages. A little less sarcasm and a touch more empathy may help; it's up to you if you wish to be more valued as a participant in this Forum. 

[OliverBlackman]

1 hour ago, diskwave said:

 

Get back to me if you ever want to play in a groovy modern Jazz unit, or big band, or theatre pit, or.....I can go on but probably dont need to.

But sure, you can learn the easy pop stuff by ear no probs .... been doing it for ever,  but a lot of musicians whilst busking the tricky styles etc will have learnt the stuff off the page.....It's quicker and just plain more sensible and fun too and also improives ur chops because of the accuracy needed. 

 

As I said to that other bloke.. Just trying to pass on some age old wisdom even if its deemed "sad" for doing so.

There’s many ways to enjoy music, and lots of music to enjoy. 

[Leonard Smalls]

3 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

how chords are built

I did a Gary Willis course a while ago and he emphasises learning chord shapes by repetition so you know instinctively what shape to use in any key. He reckons one of the most important things is muscle memory, and while all the different bits of theory are useful it's the chord shape practice that really matters...

And I don't read music either; it's not that I can't, though I'm very rusty (got up to grade 7 piano before taking up bass 40odd years ago!) - it's just that I have no need to in what I play. 

I also played in a jazz band for a while in the 9Ts - though we had no need of notation either as it was improvised around the drummer and I playing grooves and calling out chord changes as and when.

And with theory, there's so much to learn! My mum did an LRAM back in the late 70s and has no concept of modes...

[diskwave]

48 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

 

It's not only the advice given, but the tone of this advice; 'snarky' snide comments are not conducive to sympathetic reception of your core messages. A little less sarcasm and a touch more empathy may help; it's up to you if you wish to be more valued as a participant in this Forum. 

And there you have it more evidence that 'woke' is destroying what used be just normal discourse. So lets go back to my original post on page 1.   Where on earth does it read Im being "snarky".. or sarcastic"?  I stated a couple of helpful bare faced facts.. thats all.  If you need to find a "safe space" because someone with a bit of experience is happy to impart some knowledge.. then heaven help us all.

 

 

[Dad3353]

20 minutes ago, diskwave said:

And there you have it more evidence that 'woke' is destroying what used be just normal discourse. So lets go back to my original post on page 1.   Where on earth does it read Im being "snarky".. or sarcastic"?  I stated a couple of helpful bare faced facts.. thats all.  If you need to find a "safe space" because someone with a bit of experience is happy to impart some knowledge.. then heaven help us all.

 

OK, no worries. If you're content to continue the use of your, what can be construed as 'abrasive', manner, carry on. Peace. 

[Leonard Smalls]

18 minutes ago, diskwave said:

'woke' is destroying what used be just normal discourse

?

Wossat got to do with it? Sounds to me like looking for offence 😄

 

19 minutes ago, diskwave said:

Where on earth does it read Im being "snarky".. or sarcastic"?

 

1 hour ago, diskwave said:

But sure, you can learn the easy pop stuff by ear no probs .... been doing it for ever,  

 

As I said to that other bloke.. Just trying to pass on some age old wisdom even if its deemed "sad" for doing so.

See the bits in bold...

They do come over as a bit "I know everything, me, and if you disagree, how dare you?

 

There's lots of ways of playing and learning music; I for one have no interest in playing in a musical theatre pit or in doing jazz standards - they bore me stupid. Though if I did want to, I'd learn to sight read as I'd probably be stuffed without it!

But as it is, I have no use for reading music as I either compose it, jam it out with the band or make it up as I go along.

 

[tauzero]

37 minutes ago, diskwave said:

And there you have it more evidence that 'woke' is destroying what used be just normal discourse. So lets go back to my original post on page 1.   Where on earth does it read Im being "snarky".. or sarcastic"?  I stated a couple of helpful bare faced facts.. thats all.  If you need to find a "safe space" because someone with a bit of experience is happy to impart some knowledge.. then heaven help us all.

 

 

 

You didn't state facts, you stated opinions. What has "woke" got to do with anything? Looks like there's still no reason to take you out of the ignore list.

[Boodang]

On 08/11/2024 at 00:01, diskwave said:

Bin the tabs and learn notation.. Without notation you'll always be stuck playing in pub/club bands. Also... try and study Jazz. The shapes and patterns in jazz can be applied to all other styles. If you can play jazz then everything else is a piece of cake.

Actually I’m with @diskwaveon this one. Not because you’ll always be stuck in pub bands or can’t play jazz, because I don’t think that’s the case, but because knowing how to read dots opens up a lot of learning opportunities and also because it’s the language of what we do, so seems like an appropriate thing to do. Also, not that hard to learn, like anything you’re doing it just takes practice and although frustrating at first, is rewarding when you get there. I’ve just picked up some etudes and classical pieces to study purely to learn and expand on some harmony/melodic concepts and the only format is notation. You could always incorporate learning to read as part of the overall musical journey you’re on, which could be fun. But as others have also said, it’s not by any means strictly necessary. 

[rushbo]

5 hours ago, Jo.gwillim said:

Put itunes/radio/spotify on random and try to keep up. 

This is great advice for somebody who might not have the confidence to join a band or play with other musicians yet.

 

I remember spending between 30 mins and a hour a day, playing along to Radio 1 in the early 80's. It didn't matter what the song was, or even if you liked it. It was about reacting to music and finding the key and the structure purely by ear. A musician with " a good ear" is a valuable commodity indeed. 

[Geek99]

I would have thought that the best approach was both. Learning by ear to survive real life and also notation / theory to learn things that you cannot directly listen to, and to communicate with others

[diskwave]

55 minutes ago, Leonard Smalls said:

See the bits in bold...

They do come over as a bit "I know everything, me, and if you disagree, how dare you

Please read my first post. This all started when someone offered up a sad emoji. All I tried to do was help someone out, but what on earth is the point.  And if you think Im the only one who talks straight, try reading a few more.