Using Laptop and Plugins for live effects

[SumOne]

I've recently realised that Laptops and software are now powerful enough to have no noticeable latency (mine looks to be 8ms) or glitching for playing Bass live through them via an audio interface to apply digital effects.

 

It has been a bit of an eye opener as to how potentially game changing and cheap it can be (apart from the Laptop part), a decent enough audio interface like a Focusrite or Universal Audio Volt for about £100, DAW like Reaper for free (well, technically it is a trial that lasts forever), big choice of free plugin software, and it can sound great - I've been mucking about with an Ampeg SVT Plugin and Tape Echo (both free with the Volt) and a free Compressor and it all sounds as good as anything I've ever been able to achieve with expensive pedals (including Broughton SV-Pre, and Boss RE 202, Empress and Cali 76 compressors). And a massive reason I'm singing it's praises is that I pretty much plugged in and it all worked intuitively, no faff. If feels like it might be the future. 

 

I don't have a way of controlling virtual fx on/off with footswitches but I assume that is simple enough with a midi controller using USB direct to the Laptop (or the Volt has Midi in/out). Controlling the parameters could be more tricky and need a more complex midi setup though.

 

In some ways it has fewer links in the chain than using pedals. It is just Bass > Interface  > Laptop  > Interface (interface to Laptop and back used a single USB cable) > Amp, so not many cables or 'moving parts' and as long as the Interface and Laptop are reliable then all good, the hardware feels pretty solid (I've got a Laptop that has 'toughness' as a selling point, and the Volt feels as tough as any amp or pedal I've owned). With Laptop and software technology constantly improving I assume it is only going to keep becoming a more attractive option for live use.  I haven't had any issues with this Laptop system at home, but then again, you definitely don't get your fuzz pedal overheating or asking for re-logging in, or requiring a software update half way through a gig! 

 

Has anyone here taken the plunge and used this system live? Apart from the Interface aspect of Bass analogue signal being converted to digital (and the small amount of latency in doing that) I don't see it as being technically very different to people using a Laptop and Midi controller (DJ or Keyboard) live - and that seems to work for a lot of people that rely on it for live performances.

Edited Thursday at 15:11 by SumOne

[BigRedX]

I've looked at it.

 

We run a laptop (MacBook Pro) that is also our drummer and second synth player, so it seemed like a logical step. However we found that the additional loading time for Helix Native which would replace the Helix Floor that I am currently using, made the gaps between songs potentially too long for me to be comfortable with i.e. more than 5 seconds. I don't want to be waiting on stage for the next song to load. It's not a good look.

 

If you're not also running sequenced parts then it might be workable with a few caveats.

 

1. I wouldn't consider anything other than a computer that runs Mac OS for this. You need it to be 100% reliable all the time. For home practice and recording the occasional glitch is OK. Live it's not and AFAIK only Mac OS has audio and MIDI priority built-in at OS level.

 

2. I also would want to use a computer that is only used for this purpose and doesn't double as the family internet machine. Mine is occasionally used for remote working for my business, but that and the music side are run as two completely separate log-ins so they interfere as little as possible.

 

3. You'll probably have to check that all your plug-ins will respond to MIDI program changes that will at the very least allow them to be turned off and on. Personally I would want to be able to load user settings too, as most of the advantages of this sort of system will be lost if you can't. You may find that you'll need you'll need a proper MIDI interface rather than a USB dongle to make it work properly.

 

4. Also check that 8ms latency is for a round-trip and not just one way. The reason you see some many people using systems like this for keyboards, is that the latency for MIDI and audio output is significantly lower than for live-stream audio processing. Remember also that each plug-in in your audio path will probably add a little additional latency on top of the round-trip AD/DA conversion.

 

5. Make sure that none of your software needs to "phone home" for authorisation or other requirements. No matter how careful you are it will happen at the most inconvenient time. One of the reasons why I'm still doing everything from Logic and not the supposedly superior Show Page of PreSonus Studio One is exactly this. The app wanted to connect to the internet in a location where we had no mobile phone signal let alone an internet connection. Luckily all it meant was a delay to the rehearsal start for about 45 minutes while we found a location in the building where we had a mobile signal and could tether the laptop for long enough to get the required authorisation.

 

6. Make sure that you can turn off automatic software updates, prompts and notifications for everything. See points 1, 2 and 5. The last thing you want to do is to be dismissing half a dozen dialog boxes before you can use your computer for its intended application, or even worse have them pop up in the middle of a performance. Also turn off WiFi and Bluetooth unless you specifically need them for your live set up (and personally I would look at other solutions first).

 

7. make sure that everything is gig-proof. Ideally that means no exposed consumer grade connections like USB/Thunderbolt etc. Our laptop is permanently housed in a flight case along with everything required to allow it to connect to the outside world which is done with gig worthy connections like XLRs.

 

By the time you've done all this you find that's it's cheaper and more convenient to use a dedicated multi-effects pedal.

Edited Thursday at 15:26 by BigRedX

[SumOne]

21 hours ago, BigRedX said:

I've looked at it.

 

We run a laptop (MacBook Pro) that is also our drummer and second synth player, so it seemed like a logical step. However we found that the additional loading time for Helix Native which would replace the Helix Floor that I am currently using, made the gaps between songs potentially too long for me to be comfortable with i.e. more than 5 seconds. I don't want to be waiting on stage for the next song to load. It's not a good look.

 

If you're not also running sequenced parts then it might be workable with a few caveats.

 

1. I wouldn't consider anything other than a computer that runs Mac OS for this. You need it to be 100% reliable all the time. For home practice and recording the occasional glitch is OK. Live it's not and AFAIK only Mac OS has audio and MIDI priority built-in at OS level.

 

2. I also would ant to use a computer that is only used for this purpose and doesn't double as the family internet machine. Mine is occasionally used for remote working for my business, but that and the music side are run as two completely separate log-ins so they interfere as little as possible.

 

3. You'll probably have to check that all your plug-ins will respond to MIDI program changes that will at the very least allow them to be turned off and on. Personally I would want to be able to load user settings too, as most of the advantages of this sort of system will be lost if you can't. You may find that you'll need you'll need a proper MIDI interface rather than a USB dongle to make it work properly.

 

4. Also check that 8ms latency is for a round-trip and not just one way. The reason you see some many people using systems like this for keyboards, is that the latency for MIDI and audio output is significantly lower than for live-stream audio processing. Remember also that each plug-in in your audio path will probably add a little additional latency on top of the round-trip AD/DA conversion.

 

5. Make sure that none of your software needs to "phone home" for authorisation or other requirements. No matter how careful you are it will happen at the most inconvenient time. One of the reasons why I'm still doing everything from Logic and not the supposedly superior Show Page of PreSonus Studio One is exactly this. The app wanted to connect to the internet in a location where we had no mobile phone signal let allow an internet connection. Luckily all it meant was a delay to the rehearsal start for about 45 minutes while we found a location in the building where we had a mobile signal and could tether the laptop for long enough to get the required authorisation.

 

6. Make sure that you can turn off automatic software updates, prompts and notifications for everything. See points 1, 2 and 5. The last thing you want to do is to be dismissing half a dozen dialog boxes before you can use your computer for its intended application, or even worse have them pop up in the middle of a performance. Also turn off WiFi and Bluetooth unless you specifically need them for your live set up (and personally I would look at other solutions first).

 

7. make sure that everything is gig-proof. Ideally that means no exposed consumer grade connections like USB/Thunderbolt etc. Our laptop is permanently housed in a flight case along with everything required to allow it to connect to the outside world which is done with gig worthy connections like XLRs.

 

By the time you've done all this you find that's it's cheaper and more convenient to use a dedicated multi-effects pedal.

 

Thanks, all great points. I think you are right that a multi-fx pedal will be a cheaper and more convenient option - what with them basically being a small computer with software and hardware specifically designed for the job.

 

I don't have a Mac, but do have a reasonably new and powerful gaming Windows Laptop that has dealt with all the DAW and MIDI controlling stuff (the 'brain' for a Rane One DJ controller) and home use of Bass/Interface/effects without fault, it generally lives in Aeroplane mode and is pretty much exclusively set up and used for music stuff. 

 

I've just remembered that I have an Akai MIDImix that I have used with DAWs before to basically have volume sliders and 3x parameter controls for each channel, it also has mute switches for each channel. Not ideal for live Bass live use as the on/off would need to be pressed by hand, but I'll give it a try to see if stuff works in theory. I tend to have most of my pedals always on anyway, or just on for a whole song, so perhaps pressing the mute button on the MIDImix might work okay and it could live on top of the Amp perhaps. 

 

Latency looks to be 4.1ms in and 4.5ms out, but I suppose a lot of plugins will add to that so it could become an issue. (Edit, I've got it down to 5.3ms: 2.8ms in/2.5ms out with no issues).

 

Making gig proof would need some thought, I assume the Laptop and Interface could go in a flight case I have and that could go on top of my Cab, then they'd only need power and audio cables in/out. I'd still keep a separate tuner pedal on the floor.

 

But, yeah - as you say, there are probably easier and cheaper and more reliable ways to go about this! 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited Friday at 12:19 by SumOne

[Dood]

I wan' one of deeeeeez!!!

 

A PC with touch screen, full compliment audio interface and a programmable MIDI controller (amongst other functionality) in one box. You can also connect a keyboard and mouse ha ha!! Wilson demonstrated running Neural, IK M Tonex and a whole bunch of other apps (including wacthing YouTube and running a DAW) in his videos on the Paint Audio channel. 

 

 

Wilson has plenty of demo videos on his channel: https://www.youtube.com/@Wilson-PaintAudio/videos 

Edited Thursday at 16:44 by Dood

[Dood]

P.s, Wilson seems like a really knowledgeable and friendly guy. I wanna meet him! 

[BigRedX]

Here's the set up I have for laptop and interfaces etc:

 

 

It's a 3U rack case with removable top and ends. Only the top and front are removed for gigging and all the connections are made on the patch panel in the bottom 1U using XLRs or Jacks if we encounter a PA engineer that insists on using his own DI boxes. Power in is on the right using a Neutrik Powercon. The set up shown break my rule about USB connectors on stage is it has one to connect the Elgato StreamDeck Pedal which controls the playback of our backing, but due to an occasional hardware conflict between the pedal and the Focusrite interface it has been replaced by a AirTurn pedal which connects by Bluetooth and has proved to be surprisingly reliable despite my nervousness about using Bluetooth in a live situation.

 

Hidden inside the rack is the PSU for the MacBook, mains distribution for everything and an ART DTI box which buffers the interface from any nasties form the PA audio connection. Everything is securely cable-tied and hot glued into place. After about 5 years of using this set up I think I have managed to eliminate all the potential points of failure, the most recent being getting a locking IEC mains cable for the Focusrite interface.

 

However, all of this makes it bigger and heavier than the Helix Floor which is already big and heavy.

[BigRedX]

15 minutes ago, Dood said:

I wan' one of deeeeeez!!!

 

A PC with touch screen, full compliment audio interface and a programmable MIDI controller (amongst other functionality) in one box. You can also connect a keybaord and mouse ha ha!! Wilson demonstrated running Neural, IK M Tonex and a whole bunch of other apps (including wathcing YouTube and running a DAW) in his videos on the Paint Audio channel. 

 

$1k is a lot of money for this, and neither of PSU inputs are gig-proof IMO without mounting the device and PSU on a pedal board which defeats the object as this is supposed to be the "pedal board" itself. A good idea but flawed execution.

Edited Thursday at 16:56 by BigRedX

[Dood]

1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

 

$1k is a lot of money for this, and neither of PSU inputs are gig-proof IMO without mounting the device and PSU on a pedal board which defeats the object as this is supposed to be the "pedal board" itself. A good idea but flawed execution.

 

At the moment they are hand made by a small team and are knocking out about two a day, so very much a boutique build right now. They, or rather Wilson, doesn't have the same manaufacturing power as, say, Line 6 or Neural. Mentioning those in regard to flawed execution, there are plenty of pedals and devices on the market that use the same or weaker power connections. I'd like to see the same as the Line 6 LT etc that has a proper IEC power socket. 'Wall warts' and 'laptop' type power supplies and virtually every single USB connector available to the consumer market just isn't gig worthy. Well, although I agree, I don't use a separate pedal board (at the moment) for my Quad Cortex, there's plenty of people who do mount it to a board along with other devices, so I can't see why this would be flawed if it were also on a board? What's your thinking there?

[SumOne]

I have just spent about £10 on 'Bassment' VST  (Black Friday sale) which is good for including a lot of Bass fx into one vst that has low latency. It seems pretty decent for live use:

 

 

 

EDIT: After a bit longer with the 'Bassment' VST, well, it's okay I suppose - but I'm glad I only paid £10 for it. I might  need to dig a bit deeper, but for example - I can't see how to set threshold for the Compressor (and it doesn't have things like ratio etc), most of the modulation just doesn't sound very good, auto wah doesn't seem to have a sensitivity/threshold control, I have much better individual EQ, Drive, Compression VSTs (free ones), teh tuner is hard to read. What it does do well is having everything all in one low latency VST, all on one screen at a time, so I suppose that's worth £10. Other than that though, I wouldn't recommend it.

 

 

Edited Monday at 14:18 by SumOne

[LukeFRC]

some of the guys at church had some idea to run the midi out of the keys via a iPad, which got upgraded to a laptop to add extra quality to the sound. However they we'ren't following the @BigRedX checklist of dedicated ideally osX based output and it just wasn't reliable enough or simple enough by a very long way.

Yes a pedalboard with 5 different pedals is simpler - but it's also fairly reliable, and reliability is important. 

[Dood]

I've just been alerted to the existence of this cool gadget. It's a VST player: https://octavetech.eu 

[SumOne]

8 hours ago, Dood said:

I've just been alerted to the existence of this cool gadget. It's a VST player: https://octavetech.eu 

 

Nice! Yeah, with that and the Paint Audio device, and generally the performance and reliability of Laptops improving I reckon VSTs used live is going to become more of common thing. 

[bnt]

On a Mac you can also get Apple’s own MainStage for about £30, which is basically made for live use. It’s pretty powerful, maybe even too powerful with some complex MIDI control options that operate at different levels. 

Edited Friday at 08:03 by bnt

[SumOne]

5 hours ago, bnt said:

On a Mac you can also get Apple’s own MainStage for about £30, which is basically made for live use. It’s pretty powerful, maybe even too powerful with some complex MIDI control options that operate at different levels. 

That looks great.

 

Gig Performer looks like the Windows equivalent. This reviewer likes it, and a key takeaway:

 

"having spent a lot of time with it now, I certainly would trust it in a live situation. Which, speaking as a largely hardware‑reliant dinosaur who’s had his fingers burnt by software on stage before, is quite something.

Gig Performer is unusual, but it’s exceptionally good at what it does. With laptops as powerful and relatively affordable as they are these days, it could be as good a reason as any to commit to a software‑based live rig." 

 

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/gig-performer-4

 

 

Edited Friday at 13:55 by SumOne

[BigRedX]

14 hours ago, Dood said:

At the moment they are hand made by a small team and are knocking out about two a day, so very much a boutique build right now. They, or rather Wilson, doesn't have the same manaufacturing power as, say, Line 6 or Neural. Mentioning those in regard to flawed execution, there are plenty of pedals and devices on the market that use the same or weaker power connections. I'd like to see the same as the Line 6 LT etc that has a proper IEC power socket. 'Wall warts' and 'laptop' type power supplies and virtually every single USB connector available to the consumer market just isn't gig worthy. Well, although I agree, I don't use a separate pedal board (at the moment) for my Quad Cortex, there's plenty of people who do mount it to a board along with other devices, so I can't see why this would be flawed if it were also on a board? What's your thinking there?

 

My thinking is that devices like the one you linked to are designed to replace all your pedals, at least for live use, and in effect become a pedal board in their own right. They are usually designed with a smaller footprint than you typical medium sized pedal set-up, so then to have to get a pedal board to accommodate it and the PSU in order to protect the low voltage cabling and connectors is, IMO, defeating the object of it being self-contained in the first place.

 

I speak from experience - I play in a band with two guitarists who use multi-effects pedals in a floor mounted format with external PSUs. In the past six years both of them have had to repair or replace the PSU due to failures with the low voltage side cabling and connectors on more than one occasion. This is because they don't have everything mounted on a pedalboard, and why should they when the device itself is the pedalboard? Luckily the failures were spotted at rehearsal and fixed before the next gig, but they could just as easily have happened in the 15 minutes we typically have to set up on a darkened stage between bands at a gig. Often at gigs like this floor space on stage is limited. I recently found myself wedged between the floor monitor and the headlining band's kick drum with just enough room to fit the Helix floor and my feet. 

 

I can understand why manufacturers do it. Having an external PSU makes international sales and electrical compliance easier and cheaper. Instead of having to make a separate device for each region with different electrical requirements and having each of them certified as being safe for that region (which costs not an inconsiderable amount of money), they can use a 3rd party external PSU that has already been certified and produce a single device with a low-voltage input. The down-side is that the connectors and low voltage cabling are not as secure or robust as IEC mains cables and connectors. This makes them less than reliable in a gigging situation.

[SumOne]

 I think most of the main issues of using a Laptop/VSTs live can be dealt with. In fact, a bit more searching online and it seems that quite a lot of professional level musicians do use it (just the list for those using Gig Performer is quite impressive).

 

 

• Latency & reliability

  • As said in this review for Gig Performer, these aren't necessarily an issue nowadays - at least not with the right Laptop and software. 

• Live interaction

  •  MIDI footswitches and controllers can easily be added. 

• Roadworthyness
  • The Laptop and interface can be kept out of harms way in a flight case next to the mixing desk or on top of the Amp/Cab.
  • .....In fact, it is potentially more out of the way than when the 'brains' are kept on the floor along with the footswitches (which is possibly a bit of an issue for some of these other 'Laptop on the floor' units, or even standard multi-fx units, and relevant for the PSU vs IEC discussion) I've had pints spilt on  right next to my pedals on the floor as the pedalboard is basically the dividing line between band and drunk dancing punters, but the Amp/Cab and mixing desk are out of the way. You see Laptops in DJ booths working flawlessly with MIDI controllers for hours in hot clubs - they are pretty reliable and robust nowadays, obviously if someone drops a pint on it it is game over, but that is also the case with most pedalboards and multi-fx units and they tend to be more in harms way.
• Sound
  • Personally, I think all the decent Plugins I've tried sound pretty much as good as their analogue counterparts. Caveat being that not all Plugins are created equal - some are rubbish (as are some pedals), ad I'm yet to find a decent tracking and sounding Plugin Octaver.

 

The biggest benefit is the almost unlimited potential for combining all sorts of different Plugins that are being developed all the time (each potentially free, or much cheaper than a pedal), while the physical setup stays the same size.

 

So I think most of the issues can be overcome (or aren't such an issue as they were a few years ago), the one big remaining potential issue is 'cost creep'. Even if you don't count the cost of the Laptop and physical Interface, 'Gig Performer 5' is about $169 and that is just the host software that then needs plugins, a lot of decent Plugins are free - but the temptation is to spend on them and they can be pricey,  MIDI footswitches are anything from £30 - >£300.  So without being careful, it could quickly exceed the cost of a decent multi-fx.  

Edited Monday at 14:21 by SumOne

[SumOne]

I've been spending a lot of this weekend doing this Laptop/live Bass thing at home and not once has the sound done any sort of glitch/cutouts/noticeable latency, and that's just through Reaper. Gig Performer 5 is specifically made to be low latency, low CPU usage, reliable, basically 'roadworthy' so I'm pretty certain I'll get it once funds allow.

 

I'm blown away by what can be done applying effects live just with a fairly ordinary Laptop, £100 interface and free DAW and free or cheap Plugins. I've used DAWs for the last 20+ years, but they've never been good for live practice - let alone considering for live gigs as they were unreliable and the latency was too high, but now I'm down to about 5ms (the equivalent of being 1.5m from a speaker) and seemingly no reliability issues I'm seriously considering using it at a gig.

 

I mean, look at the state of this lot, I'd never be able to afford the original hardware, and I've spent a lot on hardware pedals to emulate them (Future Impact and C4 to get the MF-101 sound, the RE-20 and RE-202  Space Echo, Broughton and One Control B-15 type pedals). I'm picky with this sort of stuff and in terms of sound and functionality these Plugin versions compare very favourably at a fraction of the cost:  

 

 

 

Edited Sunday at 23:24 by SumOne

[SumOne]

Heading towards a gigable setup:

 

 

Need some MIDI footswitches to go on the floor along with the tuner....and then into the potential headaches of MIDI mapping and what to do about parameter control.

[BigRedX]

How fast does this set up load a new selection of effects?

 

Given how slow Logic is at changing patches on a single native plug-in, I suspect that you'll need to use something similar to the "snapshot" facility on the Helix where all you are doing is turning individual effects on and off and changing the values of a handful of parameters. Especially if you need to change sounds mid-song.

 

Good luck!

[EBS_freak]

If you like playing with such things, also check out - 

 

* Live Professor - https://audiostrom.com/

* https://www.waves.com/mixers-racks/superrack-performer

[SumOne]

9 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

How fast does this set up load a new selection of effects?

 

Given how slow Logic is at changing patches on a single native plug-in, I suspect that you'll need to use something similar to the "snapshot" facility on the Helix where all you are doing is turning individual effects on and off and changing the values of a handful of parameters. Especially if you need to change sounds mid-song.

 

Good luck!

 

Currently, I am just mucking about and switching between presets on individual effects (so pretty much instant). The sales pitch for 'Gig Performer 5' includes instant switching between presets, trails between them, and a lot of MIDI and switching stuff,  I'm holding back on that just now as it is $169 though.  https://gigperformer.com/features-and-benefits