Counterfeit Gibsons making the news

[oakforest5961]

 

https://apnews.com/article/fake-gibson-guitars-shipped-los-angeles-port-624705ba0ca647552b000f04e17cbaea

 

I'm not surprised at there being counterfeit guitars made, but I was fairly wide eyed at the scale of this haul.

[Beedster]

You can bet there’s a lot more out there than those Gibsons

[Reggaebass]

Wow, that’s quite a haul 

[Beedster]

I often wonder how many of the basses out there are fake, despite the owners believing that they’re 100% genuine. Copying, as well as relicing/aging are now so easy to do, and the impulsivity and emotionality of many buyers of vintage instruments means that we often accept very limited evidence when buying a ‘dream’ instrument ?

[casapete]

2 hours ago, Reggaebass said:

Wow, that’s quite a haul 

 

Ironic that the main picture in the news story features a Gretsch  ( links to Fender ). 😆

[SurroundedByManatees]

11 hours ago, Beedster said:

I often wonder how many of the basses out there are fake, despite the owners believing that they’re 100% genuine. Copying, as well as relicing/aging are now so easy to do, and the impulsivity and emotionality of many buyers of vintage instruments means that we often accept very limited evidence when buying a ‘dream’ instrument ?

On the Gibson story: It could well be that they are very non-authentic looking and are recognizable as fakes with just a little bit of knowledge. As they are probably cheap as chips guitars with a fake logo.

 

All the fake Fenders (most seen as easiest to "fake") I've seen had at least 5 aspects that didn't match with a real one. Maybe a good luthier built bass (Nash per example) could fool at first sight. But those don't come in thousands.

 

The vintage stuff is another story. 

 

Edited December 3 by SurroundedByManatees

[Beedster]

45 minutes ago, SurroundedByManatees said:

On the Gibson story: It could well be that they are very non-authentic looking and are recognizable as fakes with just a little bit of knowledge. As they are probably cheap as chips guitars with a fake logo.

 

All the fake Fenders (most seen as easiest to "fake") I've seen had at least 5 aspects that didn't match with a real one. Maybe a good luthier built bass (Nash per example) could fool at first sight. But those don't come in thousands.

 

The vintage stuff is another story. 

 

 

I agree, most are easy to spot, but that's true of all deception really. But given in nearly areas of art, engineering, tech, where there are a small number of fakes that even experts struggle to find the flaws that determine it's not the real deal, there must be at least a couple of 'bad Nash/bad Limelight' type luthiers out there?

[SurroundedByManatees]

2 minutes ago, Beedster said:

 

I agree, most are easy to spot, but that's true of all deception really. But given in nearly areas of art, engineering, tech, where there are a small number of fakes that even experts struggle to find the flaws that determine it's not the real deal, there must be at least a couple of 'bad Nash/bad Limelight' type luthiers out there?

Yeah who knows, this could totally be the case. Though it would be a costly thing to fake a pre-cbs Fender well, with brazilian fretboard and convincing pickguard. 

 

In the "best" scenario they haven't been discovered yet. 

 

[SurroundedByManatees]

Maybe it would be educative to open a topic about forgeries that people come across. It can be helpful for a lot of people I can imagine.

[Woodinblack]

44 minutes ago, Beedster said:

But given in nearly areas of art, engineering, tech, where there are a small number of fakes that even experts struggle to find the flaws that determine it's not the real deal, there must be at least a couple of 'bad Nash/bad Limelight' type luthiers out there?

 

Indeed, of the 643 Gibson '59 Les pauls that were made I think they have only managed to trace 2,000 of them

[Dad3353]

Some copies are bought by the unsuspecting as 'original', paying the retail price (or close to it...); these are a loss of sales to the original makers. Others are bought at 'knock down' prices, and are known to be fake by the buyer, who would not, probably, have bought an original in any case, so no loss of sale. These latter may be 'damaging' to the reputation of the original maker if they are shoddy; often enough these fakes are, indeed, as good as, or better, than the model they are copying, at least from a player's point of view. There are 'fake' Rics out there that are searched for as being better than a real one (and are now even more expensive to buy..!). Just sayin'. 

[Hellzero]

4 hours ago, SurroundedByManatees said:

Maybe it would be educative to open a topic about forgeries that people come across. It can be helpful for a lot of people I can imagine.

I've done a similar process here with some vintage Fender basses, telling people that what they are selling is not what they pretend to be.

 

And some established names are also selling fakes and don't know the exact specifications of what they are selling also pretending that it's fully original.

 

The answer is always the same: Mind your own business!

 

So why bother...

[kodiakblair]

6 hours ago, SurroundedByManatees said:

The vintage stuff is another story. 

Well the USA had a healthy cottage industry in the 70s knocking up 'Fenders' for unsuspecting Japanese buyers. 

 

Poetic justice if traffic now flows the other way 👍

 

Far as the main story goes. Fake drugs  flood into the USA every day, nice to know theirs customs folk are concentrating on consumer goods rather than the health of their citizens. 

[spongebob]

Came from the factory without defects…..clearly a fake Gibson! 😇

[tauzero]

3000 fake Gibsons etc would be about £500k to buy from AliExpress, so should their worth be the cost price or the price of equivalent Gibsons?

 

Anyroadup, a large shipment like that is surely going to a retailer rather than to individuals. I wonder if the intended buyer will ever be revealed.

[Chiliwailer]

On 03/12/2024 at 08:03, Beedster said:

 

I agree, most are easy to spot, but that's true of all deception really. But given in nearly areas of art, engineering, tech, where there are a small number of fakes that even experts struggle to find the flaws that determine it's not the real deal, there must be at least a couple of 'bad Nash/bad Limelight' type luthiers out there?

 

On 03/12/2024 at 08:09, SurroundedByManatees said:

Yeah who knows, this could totally be the case. Though it would be a costly thing to fake a pre-cbs Fender well, with brazilian fretboard and convincing pickguard. 

 

In the "best" scenario they haven't been discovered yet. 

 

Quite worryingly, I remember vintage Gibson’s being faked very well about 20 years ago… each one would contain real vintage parts from a less expensive model from the same period; all to make the buyer perhaps subconsciously believe that “well it must real as the parts are” - add in a good Clive Brown refinish and it’s easy to see people being caught out - as a fiend of mine did by a real pr1ck on this site a few years back, I wanted to take the bass apart when he was buying it but he didn’t want me to for some reason, when I did months later to sell it for him, I clearly saw one of Clive’s ‘secret’ markings - you wouldn’t know what they are unless Clive told you.  

Old flux was also used for ‘virgin solder joints’ on these fake Gibsons and that really caught people out, they fooled a fair few dealers and collectors. 

People were/are also doing this with vintage Marshall heads, taking parts from same era lesser models and putting them into the desirable ones so they went back to being ‘all original’ and never messed with. 

I had nothing to do with it btw, I was just in the vintage industry at the time and sadly saw it. 

Edited December 5 by Chiliwailer

[prowla]

On 03/12/2024 at 13:28, kodiakblair said:

Well the USA had a healthy cottage industry in the 70s knocking up 'Fenders' for unsuspecting Japanese buyers. 

 

Poetic justice if traffic now flows the other way 👍

 

Far as the main story goes. Fake drugs  flood into the USA every day, nice to know theirs customs folk are concentrating on consumer goods rather than the health of their citizens. 

China isn't Japan, y'know.

[paul_5]

My mate bought what he thought was a vintage Les Paul, but he knocked it over and the head didn’t snap off - that’s when he realised it was a fake! 😄

[prowla]

On 03/12/2024 at 08:03, Beedster said:

 

I agree, most are easy to spot, but that's true of all deception really. But given in nearly areas of art, engineering, tech, where there are a small number of fakes that even experts struggle to find the flaws that determine it's not the real deal, there must be at least a couple of 'bad Nash/bad Limelight' type luthiers out there?

Ssssh - you're not allowed to call out Limelights on BC!

[Beer of the Bass]

On 03/12/2024 at 08:49, Woodinblack said:

 

Indeed, of the 643 Gibson '59 Les pauls that were made I think they have only managed to trace 2,000 of them

 

Many of the faked '59-'60 sunburst Les Pauls are a little different from if you were to build forged instruments from scratch, I gather a lot of them are less valuable earlier 50s versions which have been re-worked. Not only did they start out as guitars made in the same factory in the same decade, but it's also been going on so long that many have genuine ageing and play wear too.

[NancyJohnson]

I'm in a Chibson group on Facebook, it's interesting how a lot of the people buying knock-off Les Paul models tend to be unhappy with them use the husk as a means to customise; not uncommon for all the hardware to be stripped and replaced with 'better'.

 

Would I order one?  Hmm.  I'd like a Rick Derringeresque Explorer with a split headstock; I'm sure someone (in China) would build one for me quite cheaply.  Gibson logo on the headstock?  Sure, why not?  If it makes you feel better, then fine.

 

Now don't start getting on your high horse here about fake logos/decals.  There's a load of basses here with Squire decals replaced with Fender ones.  Frankenstein models with Mighty Mite necks, Gibson truss rod covers on Epiphones.

 

Perhaps the whole Chibson issue should just make Gibson think about how much they're selling guitars for, but it won't.

[Belka]

44 minutes ago, Beer of the Bass said:

 

Many of the faked '59-'60 sunburst Les Pauls are a little different from if you were to build forged instruments from scratch, I gather a lot of them are less valuable earlier 50s versions which have been re-worked. Not only did they start out as guitars made in the same factory in the same decade, but it's also been going on so long that many have genuine ageing and play wear too.

I think a lot of people imagine men in their sheds creating fakes from scratch, but I think what you write here is a far more truthful picture of what 'fakes' are. I would also guess that a lot of the fake Fenders out there are more likely cut and shuts, refins, or originals with some dodgy parts rather than out and out fakes.

[Dan Dare]

1 hour ago, Belka said:

I think a lot of people imagine men in their sheds creating fakes from scratch, but I think what you write here is a far more truthful picture of what 'fakes' are. I would also guess that a lot of the fake Fenders out there are more likely cut and shuts, refins, or originals with some dodgy parts rather than out and out fakes.

 

Agreed. This sort of thing is nothing new and isn't limited to guitars. A pal of mine is a violin maker. I won't drop his name, but he's highly regarded. He told me there are plenty of name instruments out there that are exactly as you describe - cut and shuts, refins, or originals with some non-original parts, rather than out and out fakes.

 

Virtually all Strads, Guarneris, etc have non-original necks and fingerboards, because the method of constructing and attaching the neck when they were made was different to how it's done now. Back then, the neck was not angled. It has been discovered since that angling the neck, creating a steeper break angle over the bridge, gives more power and a more brilliant tone, so pretty well all of them have been modified.

 

Others have replacement parts, due to the ravages of time, several hundred years of use and even unfortunate accidents. Some have few original parts left. The line between a modified original and a re-creation/'fake' can be pretty blurred.

[Belka]

Of course, there have been some instances where fakes are just that - you had the case of Music Ground/the Harrisons, while their fake Fenders were; as I put it, cut and shuts and refins (and stolen guitars!), some other items, like their Hofner basses, were just modern guitars aged to look like vintage ones. I think they did something similar with Marshall amps. And their Dumble amps of course - those were complete fakes. 

 

There is also the issue of fake provenance  - tenuous links to a star which may even be completely false to justify huge hikes in price.

 

 

Edited December 5 by Belka

[prowla]

4 hours ago, NancyJohnson said:

I'm in a Chibson group on Facebook, it's interesting how a lot of the people buying knock-off Les Paul models tend to be unhappy with them use the husk as a means to customise; not uncommon for all the hardware to be stripped and replaced with 'better'.

 

Would I order one?  Hmm.  I'd like a Rick Derringeresque Explorer with a split headstock; I'm sure someone (in China) would build one for me quite cheaply.  Gibson logo on the headstock?  Sure, why not?  If it makes you feel better, then fine.

 

Now don't start getting on your high horse here about fake logos/decals.  There's a load of basses here with Squire decals replaced with Fender ones.  Frankenstein models with Mighty Mite necks, Gibson truss rod covers on Epiphones.

 

Perhaps the whole Chibson issue should just make Gibson think about how much they're selling guitars for, but it won't.

I'm not into fake logos, including "upbranding" Squiers and suchlike; they cross the boundary between a copy/replica and counterfeits.

But if someone wants to do it so they can stand in front of the mirror at home and pretend they've got a real one, then that's up to them.

As for Frankensteins... 🙂