Minimum Watts required for small to medium pubs

[jezzaboy]

If you are looking for something simple, light and around £450 second hand, £600 plus new, a Fender Rumble 500 is damm good bit of kit. Add a second 2 x 10 Rumble cab and you get the full 500 but on it`s own it will fill small to medium places. I know as it`s what I`m using in a rock band at the moment and there is a lot of love on here for it.

[Phil Starr]

There are simply too many variables to give a definitive answer to this. Size of venue, genre of music, how loud the rest of the band are and so on.

 

Thats only about how loud you need to be. That depends upon the power of the amp, the efficiency of the speakers and the tone you choose to set up. There are so many variations that no advice can be completely solid. However there is an approximate answer which applies to roughly 60% of the possible set ups and it is 200W into a single 12 or a 2x10

 

That's a bold statement so it needs some explanation. A few years ago I designed a speaker on Bass Chat. One of the design specs was that it should be ‘loud enough’ to work with a band on its own. I had to turn that into something technical so I made the basic assumption that the bass has to be as loud as the drums. No point in being louder, if the guitars are going to be louder than that then all is lost anyway. Match the drums and you are good. The next thing is how loud are drums? I found some health and safety measures and the average level at the drummer’s ears is around 100-103db. I took that to be 100db at 1 metre and that the bass would need a 40db dynamic range. So 100db +/- 20 and 120db clean was my target. Looking at specs for speakers efficiency wa around 94-100db for bass speakers and I took 97db/W as being typical. 
 

So at 97db/W you need to have 23db of gain which is 200W 

 

I gigged with one of these speakers for 2 years. The theory holds out for all normal gigs but not for really big spaces or outdoors where simple physics says you need more. There are a whole raft of amps that are 300W into 8ohms 500 into 4ohms. Any of these should be more than adequate.

[BassmanPaul]

Reading the posts in this thread makes me remember all the years that I gigged with a 50W or less amplifier. In reality more powerful amplifiers were few and far  between. LOL

 

[Downunderwonder]

Tbf if you poke a couple of vintage JBL 15's with 50w they will get quite loud. With 500w you will get barely any louder but wind uo with a smoking pile of rubble if you aren't careful.

[chris_b]

53 minutes ago, BassmanPaul said:

Reading the posts in this thread makes me remember all the years that I gigged with a 50W or less amplifier. In reality more powerful amplifiers were few and far  between. LOL

 

 

I know. I currently have more watts in my bass amp than my first 3 bands put together.

 

But then you could easily have a conversation when the band was playing. Now ,in many cases, you can't.

[la bam]

Boss katana 210.

 

160w class ab and so so so much louder than any amp I've had and I've had loads. 300w valve amps, 4x10 cans, 2x12 cabs, 600w heads, 800w heads.... 

 

The katana - I don't even go past 25% volume with it. 

[casapete]

On 11/12/2024 at 20:51, jezzaboy said:

If you are looking for something simple, light and around £450 second hand, £600 plus new, a Fender Rumble 500 is damm good bit of kit. Add a second 2 x 10 Rumble cab and you get the full 500 but on it`s own it will fill small to medium places. I know as it`s what I`m using in a rock band at the moment and there is a lot of love on here for it.

Another happy Rumble 500 user here. Mine more than holds it’s own with a 3 piece loud blues rock

band playing pubs and the odd festival. 

 

There are currently a couple of them s/h for sale on FB Marketplace which are priced well at £325 and £350,

in York and Wakefield respectively. A lot of bang for the buck, so they say. 😁

[JohnFitzgerald]

I only have one amp these days, a Markbass 802 n 300.
It does all I need and is a one handed lift.

[Sean]

I play a Mesa 400+ through a couple of BF 210s whatever. That's what I sounds like. [That's deliberate misconjugation by the way]. 10 people at open mic night or 500 in a club or bigger

 

The message here is, what do you want to sound like?

 

The venue shoul be able to cope. You just need to keep up with an acoustic drum kit.

[Stub Mandrel]

Listen to the advice above.

 

Amp power ratings can be very misleading. A 1000W amp is only twice as loud as 100W into the same cab.

 

Speaker efficiency makes a huge difference, as does an amp with (good) built in compression/limiting.

 

That's why the above mentioned Trace Elliot Elf into an efficient cab can be as good as a 1000W combo with a crap speaker.

 

I used to gig with 150W and two 2x12 cabs in the 90s. These days a 500W Orange Terror into a single good 2x12 and it's difficult to set it quiet enough for most venues and I've used it ticking over in 250 capacity venues and open air gigs with no PA support. There's no upper limit (I saw the bass player of Preying Mantis use one in the Manchester O2, with PA support).

 

So my advice is choose an amp you like the sound of with power in the hundreds of watts and match it with a good (ideally the best you can afford) lightweight cab.

 

Amps are very personal as they determine your core sound.

 

Good cabs include GRBASS, LFsys, Barefaced, Markbass, TC Electronic.

 

The first two are a bit boutique.  The other three probably cover 90% of the cabs  I see used by regularly gigging bands.

[Stub Mandrel]

On 11/12/2024 at 15:20, BassAdder60 said:

The TE Elf is better and with a decent cab is gig worthy

 

This is very true, but avoid the small Trace Elliot Elf cabs; I and others have found them gutless.

 

My brother uses his with an Ampeg Portaflex 1x15 (which he got for £15, as new!) and it's a great match.

[Stub Mandrel]

On 10/12/2024 at 20:33, Beedster said:

On 10/12/2024 at 19:28, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Or a Vox AC-30. 😉

I was in the firing line of one Sunday evening, extraordinary volume 👍

 

That's because of how Vox specified the power (30W before onset of audible distortion) while contemporary Marshall amps were specced as 100W flat out. The AC30 has proven louder than a comparable, contemporary 100W Marshall combo.

[Minininjarob]

Just plugged my 280w GK400rb into some old and pretty knackered (and probably not very efficient) Warwick 8ohm cabs in our rehearsal rooms and I couldn’t turn it up much at all it was so loud. Easily kept up and could drown out the loud drummer next to me if I wanted. Didn’t go past maybe 30% power into the old 4x10 and 1x15 cabs.

 

Was pretty much as loud as the Trace Elliot 600w thing I disconnected (and I hate sorry TE fans). 

 

Edited January 6 by Minininjarob

[Chienmortbb]

On 03/01/2025 at 21:56, Stub Mandrel said:

 

That's because of how Vox specified the power (30W before onset of audible distortion) while contemporary Marshall amps were specced as 100W flat out. The AC30 has proven louder than a comparable, contemporary 100W Marshall combo.

So two EL34s can output more than 4 EL34s?

[casapete]

45 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

So two EL34s can output more than 4 EL34s?

Vox AC30 combos normally featured 4 x EL84 valves in their power section.

Marshall 100 amps sported 4 x EL34 valves, completely different. 

[Stub Mandrel]

On 06/01/2025 at 19:46, Chienmortbb said:

So two EL34s can output more than 4 EL34s?

 

Potentially; it depends on more than just the number of tubes. Guitar World did a shootout. I struggled to find the original but found a summary of the results:

 

Marshall 100 watt 1959 SLP full stack (reissue, 60's spec)
Vox AC30 (current, it looked like the fawn colored handwired version)
Fender Hot Rod Deluxe with factory standard appointments

 

The readings were from low to high for the three contenders, 119.5 db, 124.1 db and 124.6 db.

 

.

Edited January 8 by Stub Mandrel
typoes

[-asdfgh2-]

I'd look at dB not Watts. My current rig (300W amp into a 4 ohm 1x15 of nominal 97dB sensitivity with pretty flat EQ) seems to do the job for a pub without any issues. That's nominally about 120dB maximum  at 1m, not that I've tested what it is delivering during a gig, but presumably less.

 

Boosting the bass sucks power, so avoid all the low notes if you can't be heard

 

From experience, being just around 3dB too quiet can mean you vanish from the mix.

 

In theory, getting other musicians to turn down can help provided you aren't required to play at levels that will permanently damage the hearing of the audience, but isn't always easy to persuade others of the virtue of. When I did sound for bands the comment I tended to get was that the mix was great but too quiet...

[-asdfgh2-]

13 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

Potentially; it depends on more than just the number of tubes. Guitar World did a shootout. I struggled to find the original but found a summary of the results:

 

Marshall 100 watt 1959 SLP full stack (reissue, 60's spec)
Vox AC30 (current, it looked like the fawn colored handwired version)
Fender Hot Rod Deluxe with factory standard appointments

 

The readings were from low to high for the three contenders, 119.5 db, 124.1 db and 124.6 db.

 

.

This is why a bassist should study the specifications of the guitarist tube amp so they know which tubes they can remove to make it quieter but still functional. Or invest in some of those power tube substitutes which only have 1W output :).

[-asdfgh2-]

On 06/01/2025 at 19:05, Minininjarob said:

Just plugged my 280w GK400rb into some old and pretty knackered (and probably not very efficient) Warwick 8ohm cabs in our rehearsal rooms and I couldn’t turn it up much at all it was so loud. Easily kept up and could drown out the loud drummer next to me if I wanted. Didn’t go past maybe 30% power into the old 4x10 and 1x15 cabs.

 

Was pretty much as loud as the Trace Elliot 600w thing I disconnected (and I hate sorry TE fans). 

 

 

It's only a 3dB difference, depending on voicing, which is just about noticeable but not a huge difference in and of itself. In a mix, 3dB can be make or break but in amp terms is only an issue if dimimg the 280W is just too little. If everyone else turned down a notch you'd hear the bass again and the audience wouldn't notice the overall volume difference.

[TimR]

Define small to medium.

 

Up to 150 people? 

[Chienmortbb]

21 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

Potentially; it depends on more than just the number of tubes. Guitar World did a shootout. I struggled to find the original but found a summary of the results:

 

Marshall 100 watt 1959 SLP full stack (reissue, 60's spec)
Vox AC30 (current, it looked like the fawn colored handwired version)
Fender Hot Rod Deluxe with factory standard appointments

 

The readings were from low to high for the three contenders, 119.5 db, 124.1 db and 124.6 db.

 

.

 I am not doubting the figures although without driving the same speakers, it is not easy to make a direct comparison.

[Elfrasho]

Get an old 300w 1x15 Trace Elliot. Plenty loud. Plus, if you have space to store it, you could pick up an extension cab for peanuts that would result in you having a rig that would pretty much do any gig.

[-asdfgh2-]

2 hours ago, Elfrasho said:

Get an old 300w 1x15 Trace Elliot. Plenty loud. Plus, if you have space to store it, you could pick up an extension cab for peanuts that would result in you having a rig that would pretty much do any gig.

 

Plenty loud, but more compact and lightweight options are now available. The Trace Elliot sound is seemingly Marmite, but unlike Marmite, I like it.

[-asdfgh2-]

14 hours ago, -asdfgh2- said:

This is why a bassist should study the specifications of the guitarist tube amp so they know which tubes they can remove to make it quieter but still functional. Or invest in some of those power tube substitutes which only have 1W output :).

Since guitarists like (or claim to like) power tube compression, then if it's a design that will run on reduced power amp tubes meaning for a given loudness there's more tube compression, they might actually eventually thank you.

[SimonK]

I'm another Trace Elliot fanboy. For about £150 you can get a 150W, 1x15 combo that will be plenty loud enough for any drummer - below is on ebay right now. It will also sound amazing. The TE stuff is just in the sweet spot of being cheap, but still mostly reliable.

 

Edited January 9 by SimonK