Minimum Watts required for small to medium pubs

[-asdfgh2-]

19 hours ago, SimonK said:

I'm another Trace Elliot fanboy. For about £150 you can get a 150W, 1x15 combo that will be plenty loud enough for any drummer - below is on ebay right now. It will also sound amazing. The TE stuff is just in the sweet spot of being cheap, but still mostly reliable.

 

I used to use 130W into a 2x10 (Trace Elliot BLX130SM plus extension) and for around 120 capacity it was only just cutting it. I changed out to a different cab (4 ohm Marshall 2x10) and 350W (AH350SM) and that was somewhat better. The 715 is only actually pushing 100W into that speaker. So with the 715 you should factor in (space, weight, cost) another 15" cab. That should get it to something like the same loudness as 350W and a 4 ohm 2x10.

 

With a single 15" on stage, positioning is going to be key if you want to hear yourself. Directly on the floor on a small pub stage you aren't going to hear yourself well unless you stand on your head. It might even be worth considering a 1x10 and a power attenuator and sitting that on top and aiming it at your head. It'll drop the main output to 75W, but that's not much different to 100W. The attenuator will allow you to trim the loudness aimed at your head. Alternatively, you can get a little powered cube speaker and run it off the line out and mount it on a speaker stand (which I've done - don't expect a lot of bass). I always use 2x10s vertically so I can hear something.

Edited January 10 by -asdfgh2-

[Beer of the Bass]

I've never owned a rig that did more than 200 Watts into 2 x 12" speakers, and I can't think of a pub gig that wouldn't be fine for in the styles I play. 

I take out a 50 watt Ampeg PF50T a lot of the time, though that could be right at its limit if it's a good sized room relying on backline for the volume.

[-asdfgh2-]

10 minutes ago, Beer of the Bass said:

I've never owned a rig that did more than 200 Watts into 2 x 12" speakers, and I can't think of a pub gig that wouldn't be fine for in the styles I play. 

I take out a 50 watt Ampeg PF50T a lot of the time, though that could be right at its limit if it's a good sized room relying on backline for the volume.

Depending on speaker sensitivity, 200W into 2x12 is 123dB max. A TE 115 combo is probably about 118. My old TE rig about 119, my Marshall/TE rig about 122, my current Warwick/Tech about 121, but about half the weight. 119 was JUST enough. 118, for the weight, seems a poor option, although it's good in terms of price. In theory, at the full 200W, a TC BC208 can manage 117dB, but it won't have the same audio spectrum coverage as a TE 715, I expect.

 

If those BC208 had a little better low frequency extension and a piezo, I could be tempted by a pair (broad spectrum 119 dB with my amps, but a boost in the lows). I could test by using my cheap PA cabs which have relatively similar specs on paper, albeit with tweeters. They look at bit ugly for regular bass usage, though.

[-asdfgh2-]

1 hour ago, -asdfgh2- said:

Depending on speaker sensitivity, 200W into 2x12 is 123dB max. A TE 115 combo is probably about 118. My old TE rig about 119, my Marshall/TE rig about 122, my current Warwick/Tech about 121, but about half the weight. 119 was JUST enough. 118, for the weight, seems a poor option, although it's good in terms of price. In theory, at the full 200W, a TC BC208 can manage 117dB, but it won't have the same audio spectrum coverage as a TE 715, I expect.

 

If those BC208 had a little better low frequency extension and a piezo, I could be tempted by a pair (broad spectrum 119 dB with my amps, but a boost in the lows). I could test by using my cheap PA cabs which have relatively similar specs on paper, albeit with tweeters. They look at bit ugly for regular bass usage, though.

P.S. I've never had a concern with 121dB or more on tap. It's that 3dB between vanishing in the mix and being present - it's always been an option to add a little more. Not that it should be a loudness war. In theory you could boost in the PA, but good luck getting it in phase. At gigs with two subs sometimes the hot and dead bass zones as you move around are very evident.

Edited January 10 by -asdfgh2-

[Muzz]

Even though I don't use backline any more, my rule of thumb was always 'If the kick's going into the PA, so am I'. For unamplified drums, a 500w Class D head and a decent 212 (or less watts into a more efficient cab: my 300w Walkabout into either my BF 212 or 115 (or both) will decimate any drummer) will do it.

 

 

[tauzero]

18 hours ago, Elfrasho said:

Get an old 300w 1x15 Trace Elliot. Plenty loud. Plus, if you have space to store it, you could pick up an extension cab for peanuts that would result in you having a rig that would pretty much do any gig.

 

Don't get a TE combo if you are not a contender for Britain's Strongest Man.

[Muzz]

I guess it should really be a compulsory header form for 'Which amp/cab?' threads: 

 

Age:

Back Condition:

Dead Lift Limit (lbs/kg):

General Enthusiasm For Hoicking Gear (1-10):

Edited January 10 by Muzz

[Beedster]

32 minutes ago, Muzz said:

I guess it should really be a compulsory header form for 'Which amp/cab?' threads: 

 

Age:

Back Condition:

Dead Lift Limit (lbs/kg):

General Enthusiasm For Hoicking Gear (1-10):

There’s a lot of truth and sense in that 👍

[-asdfgh2-]

2 hours ago, Muzz said:

I guess it should really be a compulsory header form for 'Which amp/cab?' threads: 

 

Age:

Back Condition:

Dead Lift Limit (lbs/kg):

General Enthusiasm For Hoicking Gear (1-10):

Add:

 

Desired future back condition

Budget for chiropractor 

Car carrying capacity 

[SimonK]

17 minutes ago, -asdfgh2- said:

Add:

 

Desired future back condition

Budget for chiropractor 

Car carrying capacity 

 

Trace Elliot owner:

 

[Stub Mandrel]

When I bought my Trace Elliot 4x10 combo, the lad selling it had brought a friend to help move it.

 

When old fart me picked it up and carried it over to my car and put it in the back, his mate burst out laughing. It's not always strength, sometimes it's just knowing how to lift properly.

[Downunderwonder]

And minding your shirt buttons.

[JohnFitzgerald]

I was such a Trace Ellio fan, 30 years ago, and my AH250  / 1518 combination was plenty for any gig I ever did.
Whilst it's a shame that the market values them so poorly nowadays, I'm honestly not surprised.

Since I discovered Markbass around 12 years ago, I'd never want anything bigger or heavier, nor would I want to find the space to store anything bigger.

[BogeyBass]

Hard to define what would be needed, depends on band drummer.

Wattage not really a question, more about speaker. How many "500" watt heads is there these days?

Likely what you will get. Its enough.

 

More about speaker, and would say average will use 1x12 or 2x12

So start with one, add another if you cant keep up. 8 ohm cabs

[SimonK]

1 hour ago, JohnFitzgerald said:

I was such a Trace Ellio fan, 30 years ago, and my AH250  / 1518 combination was plenty for any gig I ever did.
Whilst it's a shame that the market values them so poorly nowadays, I'm honestly not surprised.

Since I discovered Markbass around 12 years ago, I'd never want anything bigger or heavier, nor would I want to find the space to store anything bigger.

 

I think it's awesome that the market values TE so poorly as the amps sound as good as anything else out there, but are a fraction of the cost, and weight & age are the only downside. My problem is getting too many of them as I keep seeing awesome deals - at the moment I'm trying to justify not getting a second 4x10 simply for at home practice as there is a very good one on ebay very close to me (but that would take me up to seven TE cabs)!

[TimR]

I bought my TE 300 watt combo. GP7-SM 300? In 1996 for £300 second hand. I sold it in 2008 for £300. 

 

I used a Warwick 5.2 ProFET for the next 16 years into 2x 210pro. That's about 500W but never had it past halfway. 

 

I am now using a Gnome iPro 2 and TE Elf 10" for rehearsals and have used it on 2 gigs in a 'small' pub. I've used the Gnome on the 2x Warwick Pro 210 cabs and it's more than loud enough for outside gigs. 

 

As has been stated a few times, 

power amps are all pretty good now, it's the speaker sensitivity and I've found 15" or 2x10" is plenty for most gigs with a loud drummer. Adding extra speakers increases volume from the same amp.

Edited January 12 by TimR

[Lozz196]

I used my Gnome iPro at one gig, into either a 1x12 or 1x15 and was pretty amazed at the depth of sound from it. It was only for on stage volume but that has to be as loud as the kit so imo it would have been good enough in a pub without miked up drums. Amazing really.

[-asdfgh2-]

4 hours ago, JohnFitzgerald said:

I was such a Trace Ellio fan, 30 years ago, and my AH250  / 1518 combination was plenty for any gig I ever did.
Whilst it's a shame that the market values them so poorly nowadays, I'm honestly not surprised.

Since I discovered Markbass around 12 years ago, I'd never want anything bigger or heavier, nor would I want to find the space to store anything bigger.

I'd quite happily have the preamp out of one and a 1u class D power amp in a 3 or 4u package. I'm not sure you could obviously get one and insert a class D power amp. Certainly not with my skills!

 

Trace Elliot did try to bring out a lighter line in the mid 90s.

Edited January 12 by -asdfgh2-

[-asdfgh2-]

20 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

I used my Gnome iPro at one gig, into either a 1x12 or 1x15 and was pretty amazed at the depth of sound from it. It was only for on stage volume but that has to be as loud as the kit so imo it would have been good enough in a pub without miked up drums. Amazing really.

Is the the 200 or 280W version?

[Lozz196]

It’s the 280. Was a while back, but from recall I wasn’t pushing it at all.

[-asdfgh2-]

2 hours ago, TimR said:

I bought my TE 300 watt combo. GP7-SM 300? In 1996 for £300 second hand. I sold it in 2008 for £300. 

 

I used a Warwick 5.2 ProFET for the next 16 years into 2x 210pro. That's about 500W but never had it past halfway. 

 

I am now using a Gnome iPro 2 and TE Elf 10" for rehearsals and have used it on 2 gigs in a 'small' pub. I've used the Gnome on the 2x Warwick Pro 210 cabs and it's more than loud enough for outside gigs. 

 

As has been stated a few times, 

power amps are all pretty good now, it's the speaker sensitivity and I've found 15" or 2x10" is plenty for most gigs with a loud drummer. Adding extra speakers increases volume from the same amp.

Similar journey for me, although I got an Ashdown but no change in cabs as I'm already lightweight there. I did consider the Gnome but the Ashdown has an FX loop, just not quite the position in the chain I'd like, so I'm debating with myself. Warwick seems to now be the sound I have in my head, though.

[-asdfgh2-]

2 hours ago, TimR said:

I bought my TE 300 watt combo. GP7-SM 300? In 1996 for £300 second hand. I sold it in 2008 for £300. 

 

I used a Warwick 5.2 ProFET for the next 16 years into 2x 210pro. That's about 500W but never had it past halfway. 

 

I am now using a Gnome iPro 2 and TE Elf 10" for rehearsals and have used it on 2 gigs in a 'small' pub. I've used the Gnome on the 2x Warwick Pro 210 cabs and it's more than loud enough for outside gigs. 

 

As has been stated a few times, 

power amps are all pretty good now, it's the speaker sensitivity and I've found 15" or 2x10" is plenty for most gigs with a loud drummer. Adding extra speakers increases volume from the same amp.

Adding another speaker cab of the same type could net you up to an extra 6dB, depending on how output scales with an impedance - it might also be only 4dB. More at the lower end depending on the geometry of two cabs together.

 

Based on mixing, I find 3dB can be the difference between bass being hard to hear and just right, so 4 to 6dB could be very useful. With the efficiency of some of the BareFaced cabs it might be immaterial.

 

EQ also matters, but if there are periods of solo bass it might be hard to balance cutting though and sounding pleasant.

[TimR]

I also stack the 2x10s vertically so there's more coming out at ear level. 

[Stub Mandrel]

It's been mentioned that most amp heads are loud enough these days.

 

High power is largely about headroom for the peaks so they don't distort unpleasantly.

 

One reason the little Elf is so giggable while just 150/250W is that it has very usable and fairly transparent inbuilt compression so you can run it nearer to max power without distortion.