Anyone used position markers on the REAR of a double bass neck?

[miles'tone]

I have an upright that I've not played at all for many years. I used to play out with a band and got by with using side dots.

Now I'm keen to start again and learn "properly" without the side dots, but I'm considering using some small dabs of nail varnish for my thumb to feel on the back of the neck to help me learn the different positions.

Is this a done thing or has anyone else here used this method? Is it cheating?

Makes kind of sense to me though!

Looking forward to your thoughts and experience...

Cheers. 

Edited December 15 by miles'tone

[Bloopdad1]

No. 

Not heard of that one. (Although the NS CR4/5T had a brass pip at the back of the back where a D is if I remember?)

Plus you shouldn't use side markings either. 

If you're looking at the neck when you play they you're too side on and will potentially risk injury as your frame is twisted. 

Your body should be 3/4 behind the bass (when standing - even more behind it when sitting) and head ideally needs to be alongside the neck facing forward, absolutely not facing the neck. 

Don't look at the neck - use your ears, (as string players we often hammer a note before we bow / pluck it just to sound it quietly to double check). 

Like millions of violinist, violists cellist and bassists you need to consider getting away from markers and just learn the neck. 

 

(Tip to check intonation in loud situations is to gently rest the left  side of your head on the neck to listen to your intonation). 

 

But - that's "standard" technique, use whatever suits you best. 

[Burns-bass]

People always try and find shortcuts but the easiest thing is simply to play a little bit every single day.

 

I found doing ii V I exercises every day along with arpeggios and scales means I can hit the right note more often than not.

 

We’re talking 10 minutes or less a day of proper practice.

Edited December 15 by Burns-bass

[Beer of the Bass]

I haven't heard of this approach - the heel forms a physical landmark, and I feel like you can form an awareness of the spacing of positions in between the nut and heel fairly quickly. And precise intonation is still mostly about listening and muscle memory - markers will tend to help with getting the right note but not so much with getting that note in tune.

I have used dots on the fingerboard face from the octave upwards from time to time, either stickers or marked with a white fabric marking pencil. Yeah, it's a crutch, but it can help build confidence up in thumb position and help nail things in fewer takes when recording.

[NickA]

When I was learning the cello (aged 😎😎 my teacher put a bit of Elastoplast on the back of the neck where my thumb should be in 1st position...

 

But really you need to play enough to get muscle memory for each position.  Drop your arm to your side, then, from nowhere, put your hand on the neck to get a particular note, adjust till it's in tune then do it again.  Before long, it's like touching the tip of your nose with a finger...you just know where it is.

 

Ps excuse inadvertent smiley ...it happened when I typed an 8 then a )..and refuses to delete!

[Beedster]

1 minute ago, NickA said:

When I was learning the cello (aged 😎😎 my teacher put a bit of Elastoplast on the back of the neck where my thumb should be in 1st position...

 

But really you need to play enough to get muscle memory for each position.  Drop your arm to your side, then, from nowhere, put your hand on the neck to get a particular note, adjust till it's in tune then do it again.  Before long, it's like touching the tip of your nose with a finger...you just know where it is.

 

Ps excuse inadvertent smiley ...it happened when I typed an 8 then a )..and refuses to delete!

 
This ^

 

Working in touch is preferable to working on vision, especially for posture, but working on pitch to develop muscle memory is the goal 👍

[Burns-bass]

1 hour ago, NickA said:

When I was learning the cello (aged 😎😎 my teacher put a bit of Elastoplast on the back of the neck where my thumb should be in 1st position...

 

But really you need to play enough to get muscle memory for each position.  Drop your arm to your side, then, from nowhere, put your hand on the neck to get a particular note, adjust till it's in tune then do it again.  Before long, it's like touching the tip of your nose with a finger...you just know where it is.

 

Ps excuse inadvertent smiley ...it happened when I typed an 8 then a )..and refuses to delete!

 

Another exercise I was given (which has helped) is to play a drone of a note (A for example) and then try and locate all of the A notes you can in different positions. 

 

You can extend the exercise by swapping fingers. So play A on the E string with your first finger, then swap to the second and finally the fourth. 

 

. I've not used (or bought) the book below, but someone I trust has recommended it and I will be downloading today and will provide feedback.

 

https://shop.doublebasshq.com/products/dailyexercises?pr_prod_strat=use_description&pr_rec_id=10c70b90c&pr_rec_pid=6968959107116&pr_ref_pid=6971186806828&pr_seq=uniform&_gl=1*nku7be*_ga*MTA3MDc2OTk4Mi4xNzM0MjkzMzc3*_ga_FSRR7ZM0PK*MTczNDI5MzM3Ni4xLjEuMTczNDI5MzQ4MC40MS4wLjA.

[Happy Jack]

Slightly OT, I know, but I've never really understood the thing about avoiding side markers. I can see how playing without them can be achieved relatively easily if you always play the same intrument, but I don't. I routinely move between four upright basses but at least they're all more-or-less the same scale length; on electric I jump around from 30" to 32" to 34" to 35" whilst also moving from fretted to fretless. Side dots make life easier - why wouldn't I use them?

 

On an associated note I once took a DB into a very respected luthier's workshop to have a new bridge fitted. He'd just taken a delivery of DB's for set-up & fettling from one of the big London symphony orchestras and they were laid out on the floor in a long row of side-on DBs. Almost all of them had faint (but clear) pencil marks on the neck where the dots would be ...

[Burns-bass]

12 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

Slightly OT, I know, but I've never really understood the thing about avoiding side markers. I can see how playing without them can be achieved relatively easily if you always play the same intrument, but I don't. I routinely move between four upright basses but at least they're all more-or-less the same scale length; on electric I jump around from 30" to 32" to 34" to 35" whilst also moving from fretted to fretless. Side dots make life easier - why wouldn't I use them?

 

On an associated note I once took a DB into a very respected luthier's workshop to have a new bridge fitted. He'd just taken a delivery of DB's for set-up & fettling from one of the big London symphony orchestras and they were laid out on the floor in a long row of side-on DBs. Almost all of them had faint (but clear) pencil marks on the neck where the dots would be ...

I’m no puritan about this, but I guess for me constantly looking at the neck would hurt my neck and arm.

 

I’m guessing classical players might use a line as a way to get the right key at the start of a performance they won’t be checking it as they’re playing (at least I’ve not seen that at any of the classical concerts I’ve been to).

 

In the end, it doesn’t matter really. I just think if you’re trying to learn from scratch it’s best to have a crack at the orthodox approach.

 

[petebassist]

Agreed that constantly looking would probably strain your neck. I usually play by ear, but I used to have have a bit of masking tape around 'fret' position 3 and 5, which I found useful if I lost concentration during a gig and lost the plot a bit - the 3rd one fell off so now only one bit at the 5th fret. Useful now & again, especially if I haven't been playing regularly.

[NickA]

Oh yes, pencil marks!  In an orchestra you might have a 40 bar rest followed by the bass section coming in FF... you really don't want to hit a bum note!  We sometimes play this lovely Sibelius piece called "scene with cranes" which has almost silence then a high stopped harmonic on the bass ..no way can I hit that without a pencil line ... But it's the exception not the rule.  Got my music, the conductor, other players, even the audience to watch.  Looking at my left hand is off the agenda.

 

Admittedly, I do glance at the side dots on electric because the neck is long and without many clues as to where you are.  But I'm trying not to as looking at the rest of the band is more important..it's a matter of knowing what position you're in (4th finger currently on C for example, so that swapping 4th with 1st will put 3rd finger on D and 4th on Eb). 

 

The double bass has extra tactile clues.. thumb on neck, 2nd finger opposite thumb = 1st finger on D, 2nd on Eb etc.  Once you key in a few parameters, switching to a different bass is easy enough ..my bass is 4/4 Eb neck, but I borrowed a 3/4 D neck one at a recent session .. strangely, going back to my own bass was harder!

[miles'tone]

Thanks for all your stories and suggestions guys, I really appreciate it. 

I'm going to go at it the traditional way and put the time in. Playing by feel and ears is where I want to be anyway.

Using the side dots wasn't a problem at first because I was always standing side on, playing Rockabilly. It did become a problem later on when I was playing (ahem...bluffing) some jazz gigs as it led to some nasty neck and shoulder pain as mentioned above.

I'm loving the Discover Double Bass youtube channel - there's plenty of great lessons on there to keep me busy.

 

Cheers!

[Beedster]

2 hours ago, petebassist said:

Agreed that constantly looking would probably strain your neck. I usually play by ear, but I used to have have a bit of masking tape around 'fret' position 3 and 5, which I found useful if I lost concentration during a gig and lost the plot a bit - the 3rd one fell off so now only one bit at the 5th fret. Useful now & again, especially if I haven't been playing regularly.

 

I have a photo from a gig a few years back where I'm looking for the dots on the bass I'm playing at the time and man my posture was quite extraordinary. As I get older my biomechanical/structural integrity becomes more and more important to me and I'm very glad that I got out of that habit

[philparker]

2 hours ago, NickA said:

Oh yes, pencil marks!  In an orchestra you might have a 40 bar rest followed by the bass section coming in FF... you really don't want to hit a bum note!  We sometimes play this lovely Sibelius piece called "scene with cranes" which has almost silence then a high stopped harmonic on the bass ..no way can I hit that without a pencil line ... But it's the exception not the rule.  Got my music, the conductor, other players, even the audience to watch.  Looking at my left hand is off the agenda.

Back in 2018, I was playing an Open Day (I think they called it 'Rusties') with the BSO String Section, where amateurs spend the day with the principle string leader, learn about 3-4 pieces, and all come together mid afternoon to perform 'Tutti'. We were a very small section of 4. I can't remember the piece, but we had a long shift to high 'B' that I was struggling with and I thought, I can just play quietly there and then fine tune my position. The conductor singled out the bass section to go through that phrase and I was rightly worried, but decided to go for it with confidence. The other two amateur bass players didn't even play a note when we got to the 'B' which accentuated my poor intonation even more. Luckily, the conductor smiled, looked at me and said "don't worry, the intonation will settle".

 

I've since spent a long time working in the thumb position, but pencil marks are definitely on the cards for some pieces!

[tinyd]

I added small side markings with nail varnish a few months ago purely for gigs where hearing myself can be challenging. I hardly ever look at them but they occasionally help as a sanity check and can provide a "safe place" if I panic.....

Of course, you can call this a crutch, and adequate practice and consequent muscle memory should remove the need for them, but I like having them there all the same.

[Burns-bass]

On 16/12/2024 at 10:07, Burns-bass said:

 

Another exercise I was given (which has helped) is to play a drone of a note (A for example) and then try and locate all of the A notes you can in different positions. 

 

You can extend the exercise by swapping fingers. So play A on the E string with your first finger, then swap to the second and finally the fourth. 

 

. I've not used (or bought) the book below, but someone I trust has recommended it and I will be downloading today and will provide feedback.

 

https://shop.doublebasshq.com/products/dailyexercises?pr_prod_strat=use_description&pr_rec_id=10c70b90c&pr_rec_pid=6968959107116&pr_ref_pid=6971186806828&pr_seq=uniform&_gl=1*nku7be*_ga*MTA3MDc2OTk4Mi4xNzM0MjkzMzc3*_ga_FSRR7ZM0PK*MTczNDI5MzM3Ni4xLjEuMTczNDI5MzQ4MC40MS4wLjA.

I have now downloaded the book and it’s excellent.

 

Would recommend. 

[philparker]

52 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

I have now downloaded the book and it’s excellent.

 

Would recommend. 

 

These are the exercises I have been using for quite a few years now and continue to do so on a daily basis (or at least each time I practise). I used to attend the workshops run by David Heyes and we always started with these exercises (and others). I am sometimes skeptical about method and exercise books, but not in this case as David himself uses these exercises also on a daily basis.

 

Eventually, I took private lessons with David and finally realised, with method, good technique, and muscle memory, it was possible to hit any and every note, which we did from more than one approach. I also learnt how to work out the best [for me] finger positions, to which I could transfer this skill to both guitar and piano, with the same thought process. Although I have the book, and one or two others, all the exercises are ingrained into my memory and for every practise time, these take priority, scales and arpeggios next, pieces and fun-stuff last.

[Burns-bass]

28 minutes ago, philparker said:

 

These are the exercises I have been using for quite a few years now and continue to do so on a daily basis (or at least each time I practise). I used to attend the workshops run by David Heyes and we always started with these exercises (and others). I am sometimes skeptical about method and exercise books, but not in this case as David himself uses these exercises also on a daily basis.

 

Eventually, I took private lessons with David and finally realised, with method, good technique, and muscle memory, it was possible to hit any and every note, which we did from more than one approach. I also learnt how to work out the best [for me] finger positions, to which I could transfer this skill to both guitar and piano, with the same thought process. Although I have the book, and one or two others, all the exercises are ingrained into my memory and for every practise time, these take priority, scales and arpeggios next, pieces and fun-stuff last.

David is (I understand) an incredibly respected educator. 
 

The downloaded stuff just makes sense and I watched a few videos online and they can actually be fun, too.

 

I’d to hear your recommendations for other resources that would be useful. 

[philparker]

Yes, David is a world-class educator, there's no doubt about that.

 

I don't have access to all my material at the moment, as I am away visiting...2 books I regularly use by David are: Aiming High and Scaling the Heights, which are pieces and studies that help in the transition to thumb position and in thumb position. They look like straight-forward pieces to start with, but there's so much more to them when you 'study' them and dissect them etc.

 

I would have to wait a couple of weeks to check out some of my other stuff, but a lot of exercises we did (me and other students of a similar level) we were given printed hand outs to work on. I didn't want to buy all the material as there are lots of albums where you only need one or two pieces.

 

Sorry to the OP for diverting from the main subject!

[philparker]

Do you read any of the newsletters from Jason Heath, now Double Bass HQ?

 

He's on YT quite a bit, but often represents the DB community. Davis Heyes is a regular contributor and will sometimes have an offer on music pieces or studies.

 

I got a news letter through today with an offer of 100 studies in minor keys, which can be bought for any contribution you wish, with 'free' being an option. Or 50% discount to purchase two books of studies, in major and minor keys.

 

I haven't looked at them yet, but knowing David, they will be good and beneficial. I have just downloaded the minor keys studies, for free, but I am away from my DB for the Christmas period so I can't review.

 

DB HQ link for the minor keys studies: https://shop.doublebasshq.com/products/bass-clef-studies-book-2-100-studies-in-minor-keys?ck_subscriber_id=90329882

 

[miles'tone]

14 hours ago, philparker said:

Yes, David is a world-class educator, there's no doubt about that.

 

I don't have access to all my material at the moment, as I am away visiting...2 books I regularly use by David are: Aiming High and Scaling the Heights, which are pieces and studies that help in the transition to thumb position and in thumb position. They look like straight-forward pieces to start with, but there's so much more to them when you 'study' them and dissect them etc.

 

I would have to wait a couple of weeks to check out some of my other stuff, but a lot of exercises we did (me and other students of a similar level) we were given printed hand outs to work on. I didn't want to buy all the material as there are lots of albums where you only need one or two pieces.

 

Sorry to the OP for diverting from the main subject!

No diversion. It's all about learning to play better, thanks for your ideas!

[miles'tone]

Bit the bullet and booked some one on one lessons with a working pro bassist for January. Onwards! 🙂