Alternatives to Hipshot Ultralite tuners for a Fender bass?

[fretmeister]

The neck for my parts build precision should arrive later today and I need to get some tuners. The neck is a genuine Fender Player series Jazz neck.

 

I had planned on Hipshot Ultralite 1/2 inch Y keys as they are the lightest 1/2 inch option at 49g each.

 

What else is there that is an easy / direct fit that won't need the tuner holes made larger or the use of a load of plumbers tape on narrower tuners to make them stable?

 

I'm only looking at really lightweight options. I did see that the Gotoh Resolites are only 40g but I don't think they have suitable bushing sizes for a Fender bass.

[wateroftyne]

I thought Resos were a straight swap? Great tuners, btw.

[fretmeister]

22 hours ago, wateroftyne said:

I thought Resos were a straight swap? Great tuners, btw.

 

The model I was looking at at 40g was the GB350 and they are 3/8 inch rather than 1/2. They don't do a 1/2 inch version, and the other direct replacement models are much heavier.

[NancyJohnson]

To this day I can't really get my head around the obsession and chase for weight saving when the saving is grammes; unless you're using a headless bass there's inevitably going to be some weight on the headstock end.

 

Seeing as how it's Christmastime and that most people love chocolate bars, let's look at the weights for perspective.  49g per machine head is just shy of the weight of a standard Mars or Snickers bar; if you're struggling with lifting four of these bars, then honestly you need eat more red meat or hit the gym to build muscle mass.  You're looking at saving a possible 9g per machine, so the total weightsaving of 36g on the headstock or roughly the weight of a single Double Decker multipack bar.

 

On my thousands of posts here, I tend to pepper my content with the terms subjective or it's a nonsense.  The amount of weight you're looking to save is so small it'll make no difference whatsoever.  My ten year old niece regularly picks up my basses when we see her, she wouldn't struggle with an extra 36g on the headstock.

 

 

 

 

[Paul S]

2 hours ago, NancyJohnson said:

To this day I can't really get my head around the obsession and chase for weight saving when the saving is grammes; unless you're using a headless bass there's inevitably going to be some weight on the headstock end.

 

Seeing as how it's Christmastime and that most people love chocolate bars, let's look at the weights for perspective.  49g per machine head is just shy of the weight of a standard Mars or Snickers bar; if you're struggling with lifting four of these bars, then honestly you need eat more red meat or hit the gym to build muscle mass.  You're looking at saving a possible 9g per machine, so the total weightsaving of 36g on the headstock or roughly the weight of a single Double Decker multipack bar.

 

On my thousands of posts here, I tend to pepper my content with the terms subjective or it's a nonsense.  The amount of weight you're looking to save is so small it'll make no difference whatsoever.  My ten year old niece regularly picks up my basses when we see her, she wouldn't struggle with an extra 36g on the headstock.

 

 

 

 

 

Here we go again.  The weight of a bass is not remotely important right up until something happens to you whereafter it is the only thing of importance.  If it doesn't matter to you - well done, pray it stays like it.  For those of us with back issues saving the weight of 4 mars bars at the headstock end can actually make the difference as to being able to move the day after a gig.  Saying 'then honestly you need eat more red meat or hit the gym to build muscle mass' is just shallow thinking and rude - from a guy who frequently reminds us he is a MENSA member even more so.  Remember, children - other people's experiences may vary from your own.  🙄

[Lozz196]

For me personally it’s not so much about overall weight but more weight distribution. Reducing the headstock weight by - in the case of my bass - 176g makes the instrument balance better and drag less on my shoulder. Principal of levers and all that a reduction of 176g at the end of a 30” scale instrument is more noticeable than the same reduction in your hand. 

Edited December 30, 2024 by Lozz196

[NancyJohnson]

1 hour ago, Paul S said:

 

Here we go again.  The weight of a bass is not remotely important right up until something happens to you whereafter it is the only thing of importance.  If it doesn't matter to you - well done, pray it stays like it.  For those of us with back issues saving the weight of 4 mars bars at the headstock end can actually make the difference as to being able to move the day after a gig.  Saying 'then honestly you need eat more red meat or hit the gym to build muscle mass' is just shallow thinking and rude - from a guy who frequently reminds us reminded us once that he is a MENSA member even more so.  Remember, children - other people's experiences may vary from your own.  🙄

 

Good grief.  Are you stalking me?  Anyhow, I've fixed that for you.

 

[fretmeister]

4 hours ago, NancyJohnson said:

To this day I can't really get my head around the obsession and chase for weight saving when the saving is grammes; unless you're using a headless bass there's inevitably going to be some weight on the headstock end.

 

Seeing as how it's Christmastime and that most people love chocolate bars, let's look at the weights for perspective.  49g per machine head is just shy of the weight of a standard Mars or Snickers bar; if you're struggling with lifting four of these bars, then honestly you need eat more red meat or hit the gym to build muscle mass.  You're looking at saving a possible 9g per machine, so the total weightsaving of 36g on the headstock or roughly the weight of a single Double Decker multipack bar.

 

On my thousands of posts here, I tend to pepper my content with the terms subjective or it's a nonsense.  The amount of weight you're looking to save is so small it'll make no difference whatsoever.  My ten year old niece regularly picks up my basses when we see her, she wouldn't struggle with an extra 36g on the headstock.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Has your niece had multiple operations that means that any weight saving at all is a benefit?

 

Also - the difference between old fashioned big plate Fender tuners to Ultralites actually works out at over 1/3lb and on a 5 string over 1/2 lb.

I'm not talking about swapping a modern tuner for another slightly lighter modern tuner. I'm talking about saving maybe 1/2 pound - that's 227grams and that is very noticeable when it's at the end of a neck. Both for balance and for overall weight of the instrument. It's often the easiest way to reduce the weight of an instrument to something manageable.

 

Balance is changed massively when you take half a bag of sugar off the headstock.

 

Try it the other way if you don't believe me. Get your best balanced bass and put half a bag of sugar into a carrier and hang it from the headstock and see if it made any difference.

[Paul S]

8 minutes ago, NancyJohnson said:

 

Good grief.  Are you stalking me?  Anyhow, I've fixed that for you.

 

Good heavens, no. It is just that bragging how clever you are in front of a load of strangers seems such a weird thing to do that it is kind of memorable. And you've done it twice, now, not once. There's another guy on the forum who is also fond of mentioning his astronomical IQ. Could he wrong - in fact clearly I am - but I had the notion that MENSA folk had a code not to mention it. 

[wateroftyne]

That’s a lot of weight to save when it’s out at the headstock end.

[NancyJohnson]

1 hour ago, Paul S said:

Good heavens, no. It is just that bragging how clever you are in front of a load of strangers seems such a weird thing to do that it is kind of memorable. And you've done it twice, now, not once. There's another guy on the forum who is also fond of mentioning his astronomical IQ. Could he wrong - in fact clearly I am - but I had the notion that MENSA folk had a code not to mention it. 

 

It's not Fight Club.

[ezbass]

2 hours ago, wateroftyne said:

That’s a lot of weight to save when it’s out at the headstock end.

I find it surprising how much difference it makes, something to do with fulcrums and what not. 

[lemmywinks]

I'm the bestest, most smartest poster on here and I never mention it.

 

 

 

If you've ever had an injury or physical issues then shaving weight off the headstock is the best thing you can do outside of buying a lightweight headless, certainly better than stopping gigging. Annoyingly I injured my back recently and am glad I have the choice of an 8lb bass with Ultralites or a 7lb headless to gig with tomorrow night.

Edited December 30, 2024 by lemmywinks

[Woodinblack]

I never really thought of changing the machineheads as a weight saving thing as such, more a way to improve the balance on a neck and make it more confortable playing.

I have ultralites on both my ibanez 1605 and Maruszczyk - the 1605 was head heavy (slightly) as its body was so light, but it had the same tuners as the 5005, which was never head heavy due to the weight of the body. as a result the 1605 needed them and the 5005 didn't. I didn't know about the Maruszczyk but they weren't much and Adrian said it could be heavy as the body was swamp ash and cavitied, so I went with them. 

[fretmeister]

The trad EBMM tuners (not the new specials) were heavy.

 

I had a 2005 5 string ray that was 9.1lb with the originals. And smack on 8.5lb with Y shaped USA ultralites. Y keys are a little lighter than clovers.

 

I wish I still had it, but like an idiot I sold it. 

[Dan Dare]

On 18/12/2024 at 12:56, fretmeister said:

I did see that the Gotoh Resolites are only 40g but I don't think they have suitable bushing sizes for a Fender bass.

 

I switched to Gotohs on my P Bass Special and kept the Fender bushes, which work fine.

 

As far as weight saving is concerned, I put Resolites on My Spector Rebop because it was a little neck heavy. Although the total weight difference was only around an ounce per tuner, it definitely helped, presumably because a quarter of a pound or so makes a difference at the end of a long lever.

[tauzero]

On 30/12/2024 at 09:48, NancyJohnson said:

To this day I can't really get my head around the obsession and chase for weight saving when the saving is grammes; unless you're using a headless bass there's inevitably going to be some weight on the headstock end.

 

That is rather the point, fellow MENSA member. Basses with headstocks are naturally inclined to have shit balance. Reducing the weight at the headstock reduces the tendency to neck-dive.

[tauzero]

On 30/12/2024 at 14:47, Paul S said:

There's another guy on the forum who is also fond of mentioning his astronomical IQ. Could he wrong - in fact clearly I am - but I had the notion that MENSA folk had a code not to mention it.

 

We're not the bloody Masons, you know.

[NancyJohnson]

6 hours ago, tauzero said:

 

That is rather the point, fellow MENSA member. Basses with headstocks are naturally inclined to have shit balance. Reducing the weight at the headstock reduces the tendency to neck-dive.

 

Not wishing to dig myself into an ever deepening hole here but the thing with Precision/Jazz basses (along with, let's face it, any other bass that shares the same/similar geometry), is that the elongated top horn improves the balance of the instrument while it's on the strap; I suppose you could use the time-honoured quote that it was something Leo Fender got right (and continued to get right at MusicMan and G&L) and that it was something the boys at Gibson didn't.  Despite not being a fan of Fender basses, I've owned some in the past and in support of the design I'd say without hesitation that they do have incredibly good balance on the strap.

 

You could go into some depth here about pivot/fulcrum points, triangulation of the fixed points (strap connections and break angle at the shoulder) and rotational symmetry, all whilst factoring in other variables (viz. weight of chocolate bars on the headstock), but of course people aren't really interested in the maths or science behind it.

 

In closing, Happy New Year.

 

 

[Paul S]

40 minutes ago, NancyJohnson said:

You could go into some depth here about pivot/fulcrum points, triangulation of the fixed points (strap connections and break angle at the shoulder) and rotational symmetry, all whilst factoring in other variables (viz. weight of chocolate bars on the headstock), but of course people aren't really interested in the maths or science behind it.

 

 

Wow!  😂  I guess 'people' might struggle with the complicated bits, Sherlock, but you could always give it a try. 😂

[NancyJohnson]

7 minutes ago, Paul S said:

 

Wow!  😂  I guess 'people' might struggle with the complicated bits, Sherlock, but you could always give it a try. 😂

 

Aah, the use of inverted commas for emphasis.  Perhaps you'd like to provide me with a synonym for people that better suits your narrative. 

 

Sherlock?  What a compliment.  Made my day. 

[Bleat]

Just to let everyone know that I'm not a member of MENSA but I don't like to brag about it. Actually I'm barely a member of Basschat come to think of it. 😆

[fretmeister]

3 hours ago, NancyJohnson said:

 

Not wishing to dig myself into an ever deepening hole here but the thing with Precision/Jazz basses (along with, let's face it, any other bass that shares the same/similar geometry), is that the elongated top horn improves the balance of the instrument while it's on the strap; I suppose you could use the time-honoured quote that it was something Leo Fender got right (and continued to get right at MusicMan and G&L) and that it was something the boys at Gibson didn't.  Despite not being a fan of Fender basses, I've owned some in the past and in support of the design I'd say without hesitation that they do have incredibly good balance on the strap.

 

You could go into some depth here about pivot/fulcrum points, triangulation of the fixed points (strap connections and break angle at the shoulder) and rotational symmetry, all whilst factoring in other variables (viz. weight of chocolate bars on the headstock), but of course people aren't really interested in the maths or science behind it.

 

In closing, Happy New Year.

 

 

I’m very interested in the maths. That’s why I weighed my original tuners on my Ray5 and saved about 227g. 
On a different bass I also swapped the heavy brass control knobs for plastic ones as that saved over 20g per knob. That was another 80g. That’s 307g running total savings.

 

Then I decided to go passive. That lost a knob and pot completely and the 9V battery. A Duracell 9v is 45g. Then I took the pickguard off too to save another 25g.

 

As any engineer working in a field where weight is an issue, cumulative effects are also very important. As you can see I got very close to reducing the weight by an entire pound, with 227g of that at the far end of the neck making massive improvements in balance as well. 
 

That was a saving of approx 13% on the total bass weight. That’s very far from a couple of chocolate bars.

 

Have a crack at explaining the fulcrums if you want. I’ll get my daughter to check your maths when she’s having a break from working on wing design and wind tunnel maths.

 

EDIT: I found my spreadsheet. The pickguard and screws together weighed 77g.

 

Yes, I am that obsessed with weight to have spreadsheets. Colin Chapman was right about it for cars and it works for basses too.

Edited January 1 by fretmeister

[Dan Dare]

A wide strap with a grippy lining (mine's suede) is helpful if neck dive is an issue. 

[rmorris]

On 30/12/2024 at 12:39, Lozz196 said:

For me personally it’s not so much about overall weight but more weight distribution. Reducing the headstock weight by - in the case of my bass - 176g makes the instrument balance better and drag less on my shoulder. Principal of levers and all that a reduction of 176g at the end of a 30” scale instrument is more noticeable than the same reduction in your hand. 

 

Indeed. The figures in grams can seem very small. But you have to take into account the actual effect of the distance from the fulcrum point ie "Moment of Force". As you say lever action as applies to levers (and pulleys for that matter).