Will Basschat survive the Online Safety Act?

[Bassassin]

3 hours ago, Hellzero said:

By the way, is there a law proposal to ban or control VPN traffic in the U.K.?

 

Nah, that was me expressing amazement that no-one in government's ever proposed it, to my knowledge.

 

It's actually surprising from the perspective that it's exactly the sort of thing the tabloid redtops would love and trumpet about for weeks, regardless of the reality that it couldn't/wouldn't happen. I do think there's a genuine possibility that our politicians don't know what VPNs are or understand them enough to have thought of it, and the Moral Panic points they would score. Never mind TOR!

[Al Krow]

Seems that the NSPCC are in favour of it as I suspect are a lot of children's mental health professionals: the harm that social media causes children is well documented. 

I applaud the steps the Aussies are taking to protect their kids - they're clearly not in the pocket of the big tech companies like many Governments are.

 

Driving on drugs or alcohol is not exactly allowed is it?

They stopped folk smoking in doors.

The world didn't end. Some might argue it even got better.

 

Edited December 22, 2024 by Al Krow

[prowla]

6 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Seems that the NSPCC are in favour of it as I suspect are a lot of children's mental health professionals: the harm that social media causes children is well documented. 

I applaud the steps the Aussies are taking to protect their kids - they're clearly not in the pocket of the big tech companies like many Goverments are.

 

Driving on drugs or alcohol is not exactly allowed is it?

They stopped folk smoking in doors.

The world didn't end. Some might argue it even got better.

Well, the driving one hasn't stopped it though, so legislation in itself isn't the answer.

[Al Krow]

2 minutes ago, prowla said:

Well, the driving one hasn't stopped it though, so legislation in itself isn't the answer.

 

Sure, I agree it's not the answer in itself. But eg if drinking and driving was legal a lot more of it would happen, I suspect?

 

If the Act means our youngsters face less online abuse and harm than they might have otherwise done, then as a parent it gets my vote. 

[prowla]

19 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

Sure, I agree it's not the answer in itself. But eg if drinking and driving was legal a lot more of it would happen, I suspect?

 

If the Act means our youngsters face less online abuse and harm than they might have otherwise done, then as a parent it gets my vote. 

Whilst I am in favour of the two particular items you've quoted, there are other things which serve no purpose other than to inconvenience people.

For example: it's illegal to have a multi-tool in your car because youths in London are stabbing each other.

Slavery is illegal, but we keep hearing occurences of it.

I really don't think this proposed act will do anything of value and instead could have far-reaching, detrimental, and pernicious impacts on our society.

This is not the answer to the issue.

 

[Al Krow]

49 minutes ago, prowla said:

Whilst I am in favour of the two particular items you've quoted, there are other things which serve no purpose other than to inconvenience people.

For example: it's illegal to have a multi-tool in your car because youths in London are stabbing each other.

Slavery is illegal, but we keep hearing occurences of it.

I really don't think this proposed act will do anything of value and instead could have far-reaching, detrimental, and pernicious impacts on our society.

This is not the answer to the issue.

 

 

Would you rather slavery remained legal then? I appreciate its illegality may cause inconvenience for some...

[binky_bass]

I think that comment was more to say that some things that are illegal are so because of the 1% giving the 99% a bad name and some things (slavery) are illegal but still continue to happen despite it being abhorrent. 

[TimR]

6 hours ago, Hellzero said:

By the way, is there a law proposal to ban or control VPN traffic in the U.K.?

 

No. As has been said, banning VPNs would be counter productive.

 

Controlling what people can access and shutting down websites that don't conform to standards (which is what the thread is about) is what is being proposed (all be it via the route of making sure everyone conforms by bringing in laws).

 

The point is if UK VPNs are being complicit then they should also be subject to the new laws.

 

How you extend that to people using offshore VPNs is another subject, but you just make it very hard for people to access offshore VPNs via the ISPs and onshore VPNs.

 

Yes sure "It's easy to build your own VPN server and anyone can do it.", but I'm sorry, it's not, you need a certain level of IT knowledge. Most people I know have enough trouble creating a simple spreadsheet in Excel. 

[prowla]

52 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

Would you rather slavery remained legal then? I appreciate its illegality may cause inconvenience for some...

You know that’s not what I said or meant. 

[TimR]

2 hours ago, prowla said:

Well, the driving one hasn't stopped it though, so legislation in itself isn't the answer.

 

 

Really? 

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/life-saving-drink-drive-law-turns-50

 

[prowla]

10 minutes ago, TimR said:

Really? 

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/life-saving-drink-drive-law-turns-50

 

I said it hasn’t stopped it (we had kids in the news just this week on laughing gas). 
That said, of course there has been a change. 
Arguably education and attitudes changed, plus detection is easier, plus people are easier to spot, plus other factors. 
I’m not sure that the people who indulge in the sort of thing being discussed here would be anything similar: there is subterfuge and conniving going on. 

Edited December 22, 2024 by prowla

[tauzero]

7 hours ago, ped said:

Well I’m glad you guys are getting to the bottom of the VPN issue whilst I’m googling how to survive in prison 

 

You should also be checking out carrier pigeons.

[Grooverjr]

8 hours ago, ped said:

Well I’m glad you guys are getting to the bottom of the VPN issue whilst I’m googling how to survive in prison 

Are you using a VPN to cover your tracks? Search histories seem to be quite popular with authorities trying to make people seem suspect nowadays. I can see it now "Can you tell the court why you researched 'how to survive in prison' if you did not think moderating a forum for musicians, many of whom you knew to be opinionated and/or curmudgeonly and/or liable to get into detailed arguments ranging far from the original topic, was putting you in direct contravention of the law?" 

[tauzero]

3 hours ago, prowla said:

Whilst I am in favour of the two particular items you've quoted, there are other things which serve no purpose other than to inconvenience people.

For example: it's illegal to have a multi-tool in your car because youths in London are stabbing each other.

Slavery is illegal, but we keep hearing occurences of it.

 

You are inconvenienced by slavery being illegal?

 

If people didn't do things which are illegal then there would be no need for police or courts.

[Bassassin]

23 minutes ago, Grooverjr said:

Are you using a VPN to cover your tracks? Search histories seem to be quite popular with authorities trying to make people seem suspect nowadays. I can see it now "Can you tell the court why you researched 'how to survive in prison' if you did not think moderating a forum for musicians, many of whom you knew to be opinionated and/or curmudgeonly and/or liable to get into detailed arguments ranging far from the original topic, was putting you in direct contravention of the law?" 

 

By the same token, the very act of using a VPN to cover your tracks would be inherently suspicious. If you've got nothing to hide, etc...

[upside downer]

I shall miss these thread derailings if it all goes tits up after March 25th.

[Richard R]

Surely the best way to keep Ped out of prison is simply for us to not start posting illegal comments?

 

Of course the corollary is true, and a co-ordinated attack by hundreds of  fake accounts using VPNs from abroad could overwhelm the moderators, make compliance impossible and drive him straight into the arms of OFCOM

 

 

(In practice he's completely safe as what would actually happen is we would get distracted by asking what breed of pigeons are best for metal)

[binky_bass]

Is there no option to have some kind of blanket statement that says 'by using this site we agree to not sue Ped for any infringements of this new ridiculous act'? 

 

I for one will find a different reason to sue Ped, I don't need help with that! 

 

I also think that Ped, much like Brooks, is an institutional man, and actually can't function outside of prison. The twist to all of this is that this act was designed by Ped to keep him in prison...

 

'Ped Was Here'. 

Edited December 22, 2024 by binky_bass

[TimR]

Where are the Basschat servers located? How do we know we aren't already in contravention some local laws in another country? 

 

 

[tauzero]

34 minutes ago, binky_bass said:

I also think that Ped, much like Brooks, is an institutional man, and actually can't function outside of prison. The twist to all of this is that this act was designed by Ped to keep him in prison...

 

I hadn't realised that ped had posted in the "Tell a lie about the previous poster" thread.

[Happy Jack]

[MacDaddy]

 

 

[Woodinblack]

4 hours ago, TimR said:

Yes sure "It's easy to build your own VPN server and anyone can do it.", but I'm sorry, it's not, you need a certain level of IT knowledge. Most people I know have enough trouble creating a simple spreadsheet in Excel. 

 

Nowhere near as complicated as using excel (and a lot cheaper obviously), go to your internet router, select VPN, select on, put a username and password in and press apply. Hey presto, a 'Real' vpn!

 

 

[42Hz]

On 20/12/2024 at 07:21, prowla said:

Maybe the politicians have shares in VPN providers.

Or maybe they have been influenced by bigger commercial interests. If this become real in UK it will also become real in rest of Europe.

The winners - even if they claim differently - will be facebook and a few other monster players, predominantly counting in dollars, as they will lose competition. One effect is the centralisation and censoring of the (so called) social media so the reference to 1984 (Orwell's story) is right on.

 

It has been an interesting journey this emerging and multiple transformations of the content on the internet.

[Wolfram]

Ok... clearly very few people here (and not singling the Basschat community out - by extension, the general public) have the faintest idea what a VPN is.

 

A Virtual Private Network is what just about every single mediium- to large-sized company in the world uses to allow employees to connect to their 'internal' networks from their laptops or phones when they are not physically in the office. That's it, nothing more sinister. A VPN is something you connect to from 'external' so that you appear 'internal'.

 

Anyone, anywhere in the world can set up a VPN. It's not something that can be made illegal, any more than setting up your own Internet server; it is a networking tool used by millions of companies.

 

It also has uses for individuals. There are commercial providers of VPNs which allow you to connect from one regional IP address (e.g. China) and connect to another (e.g. rest of world). These are used extensively by people (e.g. in China) to access information that would otherwise be censored. The UK has absolutely no jurisdiction over, say, a US company that provides a VPN solution in the USA that happens to be connected to by an individual in the UK in order to access US-based websites. The only way to ban that is to regulate all connections from UK citizens to websites outside of the UK.... like China does.

 

It is also common for an individual usually gamers) to buy or rent their own server somewhere else in the world, install a free, open-source VPN, and be able to connect to it and appear to be connecting to any website from the VPN's 'home' location. We're on seriously slippery slopes if we're suggesting either that the government reviews any and all software installed on any server by a UK citizen, anywhere in the world, or that we ban encrypted web traffic outside of the UK. Even China doesn't go that far!

 

The real problem here is 'protecting the children' will do no such thing. The only reason the big multinational providers are engaging with this is they can see it will decimate their competition in the UK and give them the true monopoly they want. And, truthfully, Ofcom want - they don't want to regulate a large industry; they're quite happy with that being pushed into illegality by obscurity, and to lawyer up with 4-5 multinational opponents who will have the resources to negotiate a resolution that suits them.

 

Look at the Canadian ban on TikTok. They called the government's bluff, and ignored it. They're still happily operating there, and Canadians are still using it. Because they have billions in Chinese funding to keep it going.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 23, 2024 by Wolfram