Are my band expectations simply too high?

[Lozz196]

Agree, originals bands shouldn`t accept playing for nothing unless it`s a gift to a mate or a charity one of them supports (and the other band members agree to it). In my current originals band we do pretty good with fees, but not too well with merch (mainly cos we hardly ever bring it along, aarrrggh). In my last band we did really well on merch and ok on fees (I always thought we undersold ourselves to be honest). 

[Leonard Smalls]

1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

And regarding getting paid, there is absolutely no reason for an originals band to lose money playing gigs unless they are deliberately playing for free or they are just badly organised. I think the last time any originals band I've been in played for less than £50 (unless we had chosen to play for free) was some time in the 80s. Even if the gig payment itself doesn't cover our expenses I would expect to make up the deficit (and more) from PROFIT on merch sales.

 

If only!

When you're low down the bill you'll often get very little indeed, at least at the sort of punky do's we seem to play! If there's 8 bands on and they're charging "donations" at the door many won't pay owt, and the soundman always gets paid... Then the promoter takes a chunk of what's left, so there's not much to split! The bar always makes money though, but we never see any of that either. It often used to be that if you weren't willing to accept that you wouldn't be playing!

But we seem to get about £50 (sometimes more!) nowadays, but I never know how much we're getting paid until afterwards as I tend not to organise gigs; perhaps I should ask before agreeing to do it, though everyone else seems happy to get nowt. As it is we tend to stick it in the band kitty for our upcoming recording. 

As for merch, we'll have done well if we sell 2 cds and a tshirt...

Though I do know that we're actually getting more reasonable money for our next gig, assuming some tickets get sold in advance and the venue doesn't pull it!

 

[Dan Dare]

23 hours ago, NancyJohnson said:

are my expectations too high?

 

No, but they may well mean you will find many bands a disappointment. If you've been playing for several decades and know what you're doing, that puts you ahead of the majority of non-pro bands out there.

 

That isn't meant to sound arrogant, but when I moved out of London a couple of years back, I looked for bands to join and realised how much I had taken for granted in the bands I had played in for 40 plus years in the Smoke. Over 40 years of playing, you will have learned a lot and it can be a shock to learn how little the people who don't have your experience know.

 

In my case, I had to decide whether I was prepared to set my expectations aside initially, start small and put some time/effort into knocking any band that asked me to join into shape. Whether that's possible will depend on the potential of the band members to improve/up their game and, crucially, whether their egos will allow them to be guided (obviously, you need to approach this with tact and diplomacy).

 

So far, it's worked with one band I joined and failed with the other, because the drummist wouldn't accept things I suggested.

 

 

[Dan Dare]

duplicate post

 

Edited Monday at 15:11 by Dan Dare

[Leonard Smalls]

1 hour ago, Lozz196 said:

In my last band we did really well

You were getting some great gigs - the boys still are!

I think our problem is that perhaps we're not straight-ahead punk enough for punk gigs, not metal enough for metal venues and too punky for rock.

Not only that, but anywhere with a scene we might fit into is at least 2 hours drive away, and as they haven't heard of us we don't get the gig unless we play for virtually nowt apart from for good old exposures...

[russ.c]

As a dear friend used to put it, "exposure doesn't put petrol in the tank". Those gigs were always refused and the promoter given an earful.

[NancyJohnson]

2 hours ago, BigRedX said:

Addressing the OP, it depends on how much effort you want to put into a band on top of playing the bass guitar. If that's all you want to do, then it might be some time before you find a band that you think is suitable for you. However if you want to be a bit more proactive then it should be a lot easier to find a band that isn't quite right but has the potential to be so after you have had some input.

 

After The Terrortones stopped gigging it was over 12 months before I found another suitable musical venture. I put a very specific ad on JMB and was prepared to wait for the "right" band. They weren't 100% perfect when I joined, but over the next few years I subtly exerted my influence on the way the band developed and now we are pretty much exactly the kind of band I want to be in.

 

Sometimes band are the way that they are, not because they are terrible, but because the existing members simply don't know any better, and all it might take is a push in the right direction to make them much, much better.

 

And regarding getting paid, there is absolutely no reason for an originals band to lose money playing gigs unless they are deliberately playing for free or they are just badly organised. I think the last time any originals band I've been in played for less than £50 (unless we had chosen to play for free) was some time in the 80s. Even if the gig payment itself doesn't cover our expenses I would expect to make up the deficit (and more) from PROFIT on merch sales.

 

I have no qualms about joining an existing band (although this was my last gig and I never felt there was any exceeding of expectation thing going on), no issues with starting something new with like-minded players and to address other points raised elsewhere it's certainly not about any monetary payoff.  It's just about having a degree of fun, being energised by the creative process and playing music that I wouldn't be embarrassed by.

 

 

 

[bassbiscuits]

Don’t lower your own standards to fit in with someone else’s. 

[BigRedX]

1 hour ago, Leonard Smalls said:

You were getting some great gigs - the boys still are!

I think our problem is that perhaps we're not straight-ahead punk enough for punk gigs, not metal enough for metal venues and too punky for rock.

Not only that, but anywhere with a scene we might fit into is at least 2 hours drive away, and as they haven't heard of us we don't get the gig unless we play for virtually nowt apart from for good old exposures...

 

As much as every band wants to be unique and original, genres definitely help you to find your audience. So if you're a bit punk/metal/rock put yourself in all three and just go with it. After all if you found enough musicians who were happy to cross genres to make your music there will be even more audience members who like the combination.

 

Also don't worry about not headlining, but at the same time don't get bogged down in gigs with lots of disparate bands. Go with your genres and stick to gigs with 4 bands or less, if necessary, starting at the bottom and working your way up the bill as you get better known. IME playing just before the headliner is almost always the best spot. If they really are popular enough to be a proper headliner then most of the people who are coming to see them will be there when you go on, and if they are just "playing last" the band immediately before normally get the biggest crowd of the night. Then put on a show and have someone ready at the merch table to sell your CDs and T-shirts to the audience to moment you finish playing. 

 

IMO no band is worthy of a proper headline slot unless they have an album out and re selling significant numbers of physical product - CDs/records/cassettes.

[Bluewine]

6 hours ago, NancyJohnson said:

 

I have no qualms about joining an existing band (although this was my last gig and I never felt there was any exceeding of expectation thing going on), no issues with starting something new with like-minded players and to address other points raised elsewhere it's certainly not about any monetary payoff.  It's just about having a degree of fun, being energised by the creative process and playing music that I wouldn't be embarrassed by.

 

 

 

Does that mean you'd stay away from established bands with a heavy gigging schedule where monetary payoff is a big part of their business model ?

 

Daryl

[Doctor J]

Heavy gigging bands getting paid for playing original music are not exactly plentiful.

[NancyJohnson]

27 minutes ago, Bluewine said:

Does that mean you'd stay away from established bands with a heavy gigging schedule where monetary payoff is a big part of their business model ?

 

Daryl

 

It's never been about recouping costs for me and to be honest I doubt I could handle touring/lots of gigs...suppose I'm just at the point in my life where I enjoy my homelife more than playing a circuit of shitholes here in 'blighty or having a schedule that unduly affects family life/schedule outside of band.

 

In the (somewhat) unlikely event that Pearl Jam came knocking, then obviously that might change my mind.  😏

[BigRedX]

9 hours ago, Doctor J said:

Heavy gigging bands getting paid for playing original music are not exactly plentiful.

 

It depends on what you mean by "heavy" when it comes to gigs. IME for most originals bands who aren't signed to a supportive record label, playing any night other than Friday or Saturday is a waste of time unless you are supporting someone popular enough to be able to sell at least 100 tickets at a 150 capacity venue on a week night. That of course will limit how many gigs your band can do in a year.

 

I don't expect to be able to make a living out of playing songs that I have written, as I suspect it will entail too many artistic compromises, and I already have a creative day job where my client is the "king". However I do expect to make back any money I have invested in the band and after that initial investment for the band to be at worst completely self-financing.

 

From what I have seen the reason most originals bands can't even manage that, which should be an easily attainable goal, is either because they aren't very entertaining or because they simply aren't organised enough.

[neepheid]

23 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

From what I have seen the reason most originals bands can't even manage that, which should be an easily attainable goal, is either because they aren't very entertaining or because they simply aren't organised enough.

 

Or lazy.  I effing hope we're entertaining.

[Lozz196]

11 hours ago, Doctor J said:

Heavy gigging bands getting paid for playing original music are not exactly plentiful.

 

1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

 

It depends on what you mean by "heavy" when it comes to gigs. IME for most originals bands who aren't signed to a supportive record label, playing any night other than Friday or Saturday is a waste of time unless you are supporting someone popular enough to be able to sell at least 100 tickets at a 150 capacity venue on a week night. That of course will limit how many gigs your band can do in a year.

 

I don't expect to be able to make a living out of playing songs that I have written, as I suspect it will entail too many artistic compromises, and I already have a creative day job where my client is the "king". However I do expect to make back any money I have invested in the band and after that initial investment for the band to be at worst completely self-financing.

 

From what I have seen the reason most originals bands can't even manage that, which should be an easily attainable goal, is either because they aren't very entertaining or because they simply aren't organised enough.

Yes, my last band used to gig pretty much every weekend, all over the country and often in Europe. It was self-funding due to being run as a business with - not very punk rock I have to admit - company directors (us) and accountant etc. We never took any money from it but we were able to accept gig offers such as a festival  in Athens, at which we spent 4 days there, due to running it like this. As mentioned before merch sales played a big part of this, but you can only sell merch when you`ve done enough gigs for people to know you and want to buy it.  

[NancyJohnson]

2 hours ago, BigRedX said:

 

It depends on what you mean by "heavy" when it comes to gigs. IME for most originals bands who aren't signed to a supportive record label, playing any night other than Friday or Saturday is a waste of time unless you are supporting someone popular enough to be able to sell at least 100 tickets at a 150 capacity venue on a week night. That of course will limit how many gigs your band can do in a year.

 

I don't expect to be able to make a living out of playing songs that I have written, as I suspect it will entail too many artistic compromises, and I already have a creative day job where my client is the "king". However I do expect to make back any money I have invested in the band and after that initial investment for the band to be at worst completely self-financing.

 

From what I have seen the reason most originals bands can't even manage that, which should be an easily attainable goal, is either because they aren't very entertaining or because they simply aren't organised enough.

 

My last long squeeze would be happy to play two or three gigs a night, largely unpaid.  Punky originals.  There was a following of sorts but this whole 'you have to sell 100 tickets' thing is a non-starter; there's only so far that friends and family will support you and most of those would be expecting freebies if it was a ticketed gig. 

 

I'd always worked in an office, 9-5 position so there was little necessity for the band to generate income through gigging, although I suspect there was an expectation elsewhere that we were supposed to be getting paid, although the circles we revolved in didn't support that.  I always thought of it as being more a (very) serious hobby than the opportunity to make millions.  That ship sailed a few decades ago.  We were very well organised; both vocalists from my last two (main) bands had a list of contacts as long as your metaphorical arm and they were the prime gig-getters.

[StingRayBoy42]

19 hours ago, russ.c said:

As a dear friend used to put it, "exposure doesn't put petrol in the tank".

You can die from exposure.

[knirirr]

On 22/12/2024 at 17:50, Bilbo said:

I think it is one of the greatest frustrations in music making - finding people who are interested in playing the music you want to play and who are good enough to play it.

 

 

100%

I must have re-started playing around 2016-17 and it's taken until the end of this year to manage to play a gig with the variety of music I like and a band able to do it justice.

To get there involved quite a bit of networking at jams, though I found the drummer by advertising on JMB.

[Leonard Smalls]

2 hours ago, Lozz196 said:

you can only sell merch when you`ve done enough gigs for people to know you and want to buy it.  

Indeed...

To get going on whichever originals circuit you have to build enough interest and/or following that you get gigs that will pay well and people will buy your merch. Which means playing either for very little or nowt in order to get going.

It's nowt to do with being not very entertaining or badly organised as Mr X asserts - there's no way a new originals band is going to be self-sustaining unless they've got a "name" in the band, or are already incredibly well-connected. Otherwise a reputation is built over time, and all the organising stuff learnt along the way.

And a little, or lot of luck is also required!

Not only that, but it  helps if you're in reasonable proximity to decent venues or scene, if not it takes a lot of effort and banging your head on brick walls to get your name out there!

[meterman]

On 22/12/2024 at 15:59, NancyJohnson said:

are my expectations too high?

 

 

I've been playing around the same amount of time as you have, and honestly, I don't think your expectations are too high. No way.

 

Obviously I don't know where you're based, so have no idea of what the local live scene is like, but given the influences you mention, I wouldn't have thought it too difficult to find an existing band or get something together with mates, or even complete strangers. After 3 Colours Red, Ben was even asking online if there were any bands going that would be interested in having him play with them, and asking on social media if anyone was up for starting a new band. (He sadly fell into the world of morris dancing, but there's always a danger that might happen - be super careful). Loads of people, famous or not, get bands together all the time.
 

Yes of course, forget about making millions as an originals band. It's way harder now than in the 80's or 90's, but it's not impossible to be in a band that plays live and gets paid for it. Just avoid playing alongside more than two (or three, maximum) other bands per gig unless it's at a festival. Make sure you have merch to sell at gigs and online, and don't do freebies for 'exposure'. And if you're already well off enough that your life doesn't depend solely on band income, then just make sure you're enjoying it and have some fun with whatever £'s come your way. I reckon you could totally do it 👍

[BigRedX]

2 hours ago, Leonard Smalls said:

To get going on whichever originals circuit you have to build enough interest and/or following that you get gigs that will pay well and people will buy your merch. Which means playing either for very little or nowt in order to get going.

It's nowt to do with being not very entertaining or badly organised as Mr X asserts - there's no way a new originals band is going to be self-sustaining unless they've got a "name" in the band, or are already incredibly well-connected. Otherwise a reputation is built over time, and all the organising stuff learnt along the way.

And a little, or lot of luck is also required!

Not only that, but it  helps if you're in reasonable proximity to decent venues or scene, if not it takes a lot of effort and banging your head on brick walls to get your name out there!

 

I can only speak from my own personal experience, but I've not found it anywhere like a difficult as some people on here seem to say it is. 

 

I don't know if it's down to where I'm based? Despite having a decent number of venues available for originals bands to play, Nottingham doesn't really have much of a "scene", the musicians from here who have done really well for themselves, have done so after they left the city and don't make a big deal about coming from here. However, it is reasonably well placed to get to most other parts of the country and about two thirds of the gigs I've done in the last 12 months have involved 2-4 hours travelling each way.

 

I've just done a VERY ROUGH calculation and from 15 gigs in the last 12 months one of my bands has made just under £150 a gig when the profit from merch sales and PRS performance royalties from gigs is also taken into account. I know that's not much compared with your typical pub covers band, but has paid for our transport to and from the gigs, the couple of occasions we have had to stay overnight and rehearsal room costs, and we already have a decent sum available to put towards to manufacturing costs of our album when it's finished next year. We have been able to do this because we are organised and have picked the gigs that we play carefully.

 

We have traded upon the various members' past achievements (we'd be stupid not to), but that only gets your foot in the door a few times, before you have to consistently back it up with an entertaining performance and songs that your audience want to hear. There has been some luck involved - the current iteration of the band landed a really good spot on a goth festival as our first gig, based on our past bands' reputations, but we delivered a performance when it mattered and got an excellent review as a result, and have been able to build from that. 

[Leonard Smalls]

27 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

Nottingham

We played in Nottingham this year and we actually got a decent amount of pay supporting the Soap Girls, which was nice! Not only that but we sold merch too so all costs plus a bit towards the next album were covered. Next gig we're also getting decent pay, especially as it's only half an hour away!

But it's taken us nearly 5 years to get to that stage - in the first year we rarely got more than about £30, sometimes nowt! We played once in the Valleys to the barman, the other band and a cardboard cut-out of Marc Bolan. The barman gave us £13 - which was good as the venue was empty! What was strange that nobody in the town seemed interested in coming to see bands, or at least not if they'd never heard of 'em unless it promised well-known covers - folks couldn't be bothered to go and see bands on spec like I used to when I wer nobbut a lad. We'd go and see any band just in case they might be good...

[Wolverinebass]

As someone who has seen @NancyJohnson play, I can say that he's being modest about his ability on bass. Or as a songwriter for that matter.

 

I for one am very specific when it comes to what types of bands I'll be involved in. I don't think that's being egotistical, just that I know what I want and that I'm quite happy to search for it. As such, the 2 bands I'm in now are exactly right for me at this moment. Ironically, one of them is my own band. At least nominally.

 

I sporadically get asked to join or audition for a band and I'll generally have a listen and decide based on that. More often than not, I'll decline or I might play one gig to test it out if I've got nothing on or am vaguely intrigued. There are a lot of bands or people who think that they are amazing and just aren't. 

 

For me, I want being in a band to be something I enjoy and the other members do too. I don't want to be the best musician in the band, nor do I want to be the sole songwriter. I like the collaboration and comradery if you will.

 

I would like to say for comedy value that both bands only tolerate me as I'm producing the material for free, but in all seriousness, that's not true. There is a running joke in one of them as to how much the album would have been if they'd paid me and every so often I'll figure it out and have a laugh about it. Hey, it gets me a free lift to gigs! 

 

It's worth saying though that I spent about 18 months looking for things or people before I got where I am now.

[meterman]

31 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

 

Despite having a decent number of venues available for originals bands to play, Nottingham doesn't really have much of a "scene", the musicians from here who have done really well for themselves, have done so after they left the city and don't make a big deal about coming from here. 

 

Could be because I grew up in a part of the North East that didn't have any dedicated live venues, but I've often wondered about Nottingham. Obviously there's been some great bands and musicians that have come from there that have done well (off the top of my head, Ten Years After, Tindersticks, London Grammar, Six By Seven, C Cat Trance, Stereo MC's, Little Barrie - not just the band but Barrie himself has done stints in Primal Scream, composed the "Better Call Saul" TV theme, and recently toured with Liam Gallagher & John Squire, and is on tour with The The...) but there's some great places to play live there. One of my mates played at Rough Trade recently and he said he loved it. Plus, there's the classic Rock City - that was a bucket list gig for me in the 80's and I loved wandering around Nottingham the first time I played there. Always enjoyed going back there too. I always thought of it as one of the country's live music hubs. Maybe there's only so many times you can play the same circuit? 
 

[Bluewine]

14 hours ago, BigRedX said:

 

From what I have seen the reason most originals bands can't even manage that, which should be an easily attainable goal, is either because they aren't very entertaining or because they simply aren't organised enough.

 

I think it also depends on the area the band would be playing.If there's a robust active originals scene with places to play it can be great.

 

In my neck of the woulds there's no money to be made by originals bands because there's no place to play. I've tried it.

 

Daryl