Who knows their modes.

[ezbass]

IIRC modes inform what scale can be played over certain chords in the key, this may be erroneous. That said, the only times I’ve been aware of playing particular modes are using the Mixolydian for the dominant 7th and the Phrygian when playing Chick Corea’s Spain or the outro to Haitian Divorce, where it moves between E and F root notes.

[Sean]

It’ll take someone who is better at explaining than me to put this into words but I start with explaining the difference between the use of Major and Minor Pentatonic scales. In my mind, this is a good place to start as people are often familiar with these. A major penta is ABC#EF#A (simplified A Ionian) and A minor penta is ACDEGA (simplified A Aeolian). If we work toward understanding how to use those differently, it can help.

 

We can use Am Penta over A7 (D7 E7) progressions and it gives that “blues” feel. Whereas if we use Amaj Penta over the A7 (D7 E7) it gives a more “country" feel. They have to be heard in context. Hopefully someone can illustrate in clearer terms but I tend to think of them as different flavours. 

[Terry M.]

42 minutes ago, Obrienp said:

I was very interested to see this thread. @Sean mentioned the difficulty I have with modes in general. Very interesting but how the hell do you use them? I am still waiting for a good explanation beyond the sort of throw away comments that usually accompany tutorials like “commonly used in Latin music, or used in Jazz”. It seems to be a largely academic exercise.

 

I am sure that for some people the penny drops eventually but it hasn’t for me. It’s seems a bit akin to learning maths: maths teachers are universally bad at explaining the why. It just seems to be something you get, or something you don’t. Personally I only discovered the usefulness of some maths concepts when I started coding software, long after I left school. This is the way I feel about modes but the light bulb moment hasn’t occurred for me.

While I'm far from being an expert on the topic I personally use them when I'm improvising and also when using fills. So if you're in C major for example you can build a solo or an interesting fill in D Dorian or F Lydian whilst maintaining the integrity of the key of C major. I want to eventually get into using counterpoint as I'm sure modes will help with that. Hope that made some sort of sense? 

[Obrienp]

11 minutes ago, Sean said:

It’ll take someone who is better at explaining than me to put this into words but I start with explaining the difference between the use of Major and Minor Pentatonic scales. In my mind, this is a good place to start as people are often familiar with these. A major penta is ABC#EF#A (simplified A Ionian) and A minor penta is ACDEGA (simplified A Aeolian). If we work toward understanding how to use those differently, it can help.

 

We can use Am Penta over A7 (D7 E7) progressions and it gives that “blues” feel. Whereas if we use Amaj Penta over the A7 (D7 E7) it gives a more “country" feel. They have to be heard in context. Hopefully someone can illustrate in clearer terms but I tend to think of them as different flavours. 

Yeah, I understand that (I originally got there through experimentation) but is that modes, or scales?

[Obrienp]

12 minutes ago, Terry M. said:

While I'm far from being an expert on the topic I personally use them when I'm improvising and also when using fills. So if you're in C major for example you can build a solo or an interesting fill in D Dorian or F Lydian whilst maintaining the integrity of the key of C major. I want to eventually get into using counterpoint as I'm sure modes will help with that. Hope that made some sort of sense? 

Er, not really but thanks for trying.

[Terry M.]

4 minutes ago, Obrienp said:

Er, not really but thanks for trying.

No problem.This is only from my experience. Modes offer more harmonic options. If your band is jamming in C major you can spice things up by choosing a mode within C major and experimenting with a fill. D Dorian (for example) has the same notes as C major but starting on the 2nd degree. Therefore it contains the same notes but offers a different flavour. I see a mode as a different "flavour" of the parent key. I'll stop now before I make things worse 😆

[ezbass]

10 minutes ago, Obrienp said:

but is that modes, or scales?

Modes are scales. For instance, the Phrygian mode is merely the major scale, starting on the major 3rd. 

[Terry M.]

17 minutes ago, Obrienp said:

Yeah, I understand that (I originally got there through experimentation) but is that modes, or scales?

A mode is a type of scale. 

[Terry M.]

1 hour ago, Obrienp said:

I was very interested to see this thread. @Sean mentioned the difficulty I have with modes in general. Very interesting but how the hell do you use them? I am still waiting for a good explanation beyond the sort of throw away comments that usually accompany tutorials like “commonly used in Latin music, or used in Jazz”. It seems to be a largely academic exercise.

 

I am sure that for some people the penny drops eventually but it hasn’t for me. It’s seems a bit akin to learning maths: maths teachers are universally bad at explaining the why. It just seems to be something you get, or something you don’t. Personally I only discovered the usefulness of some maths concepts when I started coding software, long after I left school. This is the way I feel about modes but the light bulb moment hasn’t occurred for me.

What is your understanding of modes with regards to what they are and where they come from?

[Obrienp]

2 hours ago, Terry M. said:

What is your understanding of modes with regards to what they are and where they come from?

I could probably sum it up as very little. I have books and charts of different types of scale in each key ranging from major through Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, mixolydian, etc, pentatonic major and minor, etc. I then have theory books that talk about modes of each scale and say things like the Dorian mode is like starting the major scale from the 2nd degree of the scale, which is clearly different to the C Dorian scale on my charts because that starts on the root and has flatted 3 and 7, whereas the C major scale has no flats or sharps, wherever you start playing it from. I don’t find this particularly helpful, or useful.

[ezbass]

1 hour ago, Obrienp said:

Dorian mode is like starting the major scale from the 2nd degree of the scale, which is clearly different to the C Dorian scale on my charts because that starts on the root and has flatted 3 and 7, whereas the C major scale has no flats or sharps, wherever you start playing it from. I don’t find this particularly helpful, or useful.

That’s because it isn’t the Dorian of C major, it’s the Dorian of C, it being the 2nd degree of the Bb Major (Ionian) scale. If the key was C major, it’s what you would play over a D minor chord. Yes, it’s confusing and mostly a method of analysing melodies or solos IMO.

Edited February 12 by ezbass

[Terry M.]

36 minutes ago, Obrienp said:

I could probably sum it up as very little. I have books and charts of different types of scale in each key ranging from major through Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, mixolydian, etc, pentatonic major and minor, etc. I then have theory books that talk about modes of each scale and say things like the Dorian mode is like starting the major scale from the 2nd degree of the scale, which is clearly different to the C Dorian scale on my charts because that starts on the root and has flatted 3 and 7, whereas the C major scale has no flats or sharps, wherever you start playing it from. I don’t find this particularly helpful, or useful.

Okay so with regards to C Dorian. Dorian is always the 2nd scale degree of the major scale so if C is the 2nd degree you are then in the key of Bb Major. If you're in C Major then the Dorian mode is D as it's the 2nd degree of that scale.Does that part make sense? Maybe forget the pentatonic scale just for the moment. 

[Terry M.]

3 minutes ago, ezbass said:

That’s because it isn’t the C Dorian. C Dorian starts on D, it being the 2nd degree of the C Major (Ionian) scale. In the key of C major, it’s what you would play over a D minor chord. Yes, it’s confusing and mostly a method of analysing melodies or solos IMO.

C Dorian is in the key of Bb Major?

[ezbass]

1 minute ago, Terry M. said:

C Dorian is in the key of Bb Major?

The Dorian mode of Bb starts on C, yes. This is where it becomes confusing. The mode refers to its relationship to the Ionian root. 
 

 

Now I’m starting to question my own thinking .

[Terry M.]

Practice going through each mode of the C Major scale from Ionian through to Locrian,all 7 of them. Write down the 8 notes from C back to C again (an octave) start on C and finish on C ,1st mode, then start on D and finish again on D,2nd mode until you reach the last (7th) mode which is B Locrian. Familiarise yourself with these scales and the unique sound of each one. After that you can start to apply them over actual songs when you understand the role each one plays in the key.

Edited February 12 by Terry M.

[Terry M.]

4 minutes ago, ezbass said:

The Dorian mode of Bb starts on C, yes. This is where it becomes confusing. The mode refers to its relationship to the Ionian root. 
 

 

Now I’m starting to question my own thinking .

You said C Dorian starts on D. It doesn't. It starts on C in the key of Bb Major.

[Terry M.]

I'm not professing to be an expert on this. I can only share what eventually made sense to me 👍

[ezbass]

15 minutes ago, Terry M. said:

You said C Dorian starts on D. It doesn't. It starts on C in the key of Bb Major.

I tripped up over my explanation, you are correct. The problem is that theory books often use the C major scale as a start point to explaining modes. 
 

I have edited my post, to try and clarify (I may have just muddied the waters though ).

[Terry M.]

7 minutes ago, ezbass said:

I tripped up over my explanation, you are correct. The problem is that theory books often use the C major scale as a start point to explaining modes. 
 

I have edited my post, to try and clarify (I may have just muddied the waters though ).

Your edit makes sense. It's easier to start with C because (as you know) there are no sharps or flats to deal with. Once the concept is learned it's then easier to transpose to other keys.

[Obrienp]

This is why I have about half a dozen music theory books and the same number of scale compendiums. I have yet to find an explanation that I can understand. As for the circle of fifths…..

 

Fortunately, I have got to a place where I know enough theory and have enough practical experience, to be able to come up with reasonable bass lines on the fly. They may not be the most original but they work. BTW, I rarely use the minor pentatonic on its own but it can be unavoidable, if playing rock and blues based on riffs.
 

I do like the advice, attributed to Victor Wooten, that you can only ever be one semitone out and the groove is more important than the notes.

Edited February 12 by Obrienp

[Terry M.]

7 minutes ago, Obrienp said:

😬

Given up with it all? 😆

[Obrienp]

8 minutes ago, Terry M. said:

Given up with it all? 😆

Kinda.

[ezbass]

19 minutes ago, Obrienp said:

😬

Exactly.

 

A better place to start is with the chords of a given major scale.

 

 

If you start from the second degree for the C major scale, you get a D minor voice, if from the seventh degree, you’re voicing a B diminished (Locrian).

 

 

Edited February 12 by ezbass

[Stub Mandrel]

My weak link.

 

As I play a lot of blues, mixylodian comes naturally to me.

 

Other than major/minor ionian/aeolian, I  use harmonic minor.

 

I suppose the really interesting thing about mides is each one changes the selection of major and minor chords available.

[nekomatic]

3 hours ago, ezbass said:

The Dorian mode of Bb starts on C, yes. This is where it becomes confusing. The mode refers to its relationship to the Ionian root. 
 

 

Now I’m starting to question my own thinking .

If this is confusing (to anyone, not ezbass in particular) I do recommend going back to this post on the first page and forgetting about the ‘it’s the scale of C but starting on a D’ stuff.